Game of Thrones - TV Series (NO BOOK SPOILERS)

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Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,450
7
81
She also didn't object or fight: zero indication it was rape. It's possible to be consenting and not like doing it...

That said arranged marriages are all rape because they are coercive.
I dunno, he made it seem like he was either going to beat her ass and screw her or just screw her. I would have preferred they just cut away to the next morning and just show her crying or something. The problem I have with this scene is it just seems creepy for the sake of being f'd up. Also something not right about the implication the step brother's pain at that moment is worse than Sansas.

There is no justice in the show, so its just yet another crappy thing happening to a decent character. I dont think there will ever be a payoff that justifies all the evil deeds in the show. There were only really two scenes in the series so far that made me think I might stop watching the show: Sansa's wedding night and Oberyn's death. It may be that I just wait till the seasons are finished before I watch so there isnt any one thing to focus on for too long.
 

cronos

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 2001
9,380
24
91
How did you feel about Daenerys and Khal Drogo? Because that scene literally turned me off the series for years, I stopped watching after one episode and didn't continue until season 4 was about to begin last year. I have since accept the world of the show though so Sansa's wedding night didn't get me upset at all. It's sad, but that's just the way things are over there.

Oh and it wasn't just Drogo. The way her brother was treating her was extremely crappy as well. I didn't want to watch anymore after seeing that.
 
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Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,450
7
81
How did you feel about Daenerys and Khal Drogo? Because that scene literally turned me off the series for years, I stopped watching after one episode and didn't continue until season 4 was about to begin last year. I have since accept the world of the show though so Sansa's wedding night didn't get me upset at all. It's sad, but that's just the way things are over there.

Oh and it wasn't just Drogo. The way her brother was treating her was extremely crappy as well. I didn't want to watch anymore after seeing that.
That scene was f'd up too, maybe even more so, because Dany looked (still does) like a little girl. But Sansa has had a much harder road. Every season it seems like crap sandwich after crap sandwich for Sansa, but since Dany's wedding night she has been OP. I think thats the main difference. In the beginning it was messed up, but you still had no real attachment to the character. 3 or so seasons of Sansa being terrorized and now having to screw a psychotic looking hobbit just seems like too much. I would rather they killed off Sansa than continue the various forms of abuse.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
8,528
4,040
136
I dunno, he made it seem like he was either going to beat her ass and screw her or just screw her. I would have preferred they just cut away to the next morning and just show her crying or something. The problem I have with this scene is it just seems creepy for the sake of being f'd up. Also something not right about the implication the step brother's pain at that moment is worse than Sansas.

There is no justice in the show, so its just yet another crappy thing happening to a decent character. I dont think there will ever be a payoff that justifies all the evil deeds in the show. There were only really two scenes in the series so far that made me think I might stop watching the show: Sansa's wedding night and Oberyn's death. It may be that I just wait till the seasons are finished before I watch so there isnt any one thing to focus on for too long.
That scene needed to happen because its important to the Theon storyline. If people would actually pay attention to the scene they would note the focus is on Theon.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
8,528
4,040
136
That scene was f'd up too, maybe even more so, because Dany looked (still does) like a little girl. But Sansa has had a much harder road. Every season it seems like crap sandwich after crap sandwich for Sansa, but since Dany's wedding night she has been OP. I think thats the main difference. In the beginning it was messed up, but you still had no real attachment to the character. 3 or so seasons of Sansa being terrorized and now having to screw a psychotic looking hobbit just seems like too much. I would rather they killed off Sansa than continue the various forms of abuse.

Sansa started off as a naive child who thought the world is a fairy tale.
Joffery taught her that fairy tales are lies
Littlefinger is teaching her how to manipulate a cold cruel world
Ramsay is taking away the last shed of her innocence.

Ramsay is just a stop in the road on her way to become a major power player.
She is on track to being the only major "Stark" left in the series.
Bran is now a tree.
Rickon is a child
Arya is becoming noone.

You would kill her off because you can't handle a scene that involves consummation of wedding vows? An agreed upon wedding weigh she understood the consequences?

She is there for one reason. That reason is to avenge her family.

If the writes are going to do what 'i think they are going to do, you will understand the importance of the Ramsay\Theon\Sansa scene later in the season.

This scene is not a Ramsay+porr little Sansa scene.
This is a Ramsay\Theon\Sansa scene where the interaction between Ramsay and Theon have meaning.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
8,528
4,040
136
She also didn't object or fight: zero indication it was rape. It's possible to be consenting and not like doing it...

That said arranged marriages are all rape because they are coercive.
She is "doing her duty" for the sake of avenging her family.
This scene establishes that she is willing to do what needs to be done for the big picture.
 

Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,450
7
81
That scene needed to happen because its important to the Theon storyline. If people would actually pay attention to the scene they would note the focus is on Theon.
In some ways thats even worse, depending on whether or not you think Sansa is a major character and if you think its rape. Theon essentially has been a second tier character. Ramsay chopped off his pecker and tormented him for I dont know how long. Come to think of it, Theon has probably been both physically and mentally abused the most out of anyone. He should have his own reasons for killing Ramsay by now, and I dont really see how this would change anything. I dont see the need to continue abusing either character. It would actually be fairly shallow if this was a catalyst to get Theon to man up.
 

Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,450
7
81
You would kill her off because you can't handle a scene that involves consummation of wedding vows? An agreed upon wedding weigh she understood the consequences?

She is there for one reason. That reason is to avenge her family.

If the writes are going to do what 'i think they are going to do, you will understand the importance of the Ramsay\Theon\Sansa scene later in the season.

This scene is not a Ramsay+porr little Sansa scene.
This is a Ramsay\Theon\Sansa scene where the interaction between Ramsay and Theon have meaning.
If I thought she had the capacity to avenge anything that would be one thing, but the character as portrayed is simply nothing but a victim to whoever wants to victimize her. As she is now, she is simply a punching bag and I would rather they tell someone elses story than continue down this path. And its not because I have any particular affection for the character, its more like a 'enough already' kinda thing.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
8,528
4,040
136
In some ways thats even worse, depending on whether or not you think Sansa is a major character and if you think its rape. Theon essentially has been a second tier character. Ramsay chopped off his pecker and tormented him for I dont know how long. Come to think of it, Theon has probably been both physically and mentally abused the most out of anyone. He should have his own reasons for killing Ramsay by now, and I dont really see how this would change anything. I dont see the need to continue abusing either character. It would actually be fairly shallow if this was a catalyst to get Theon to man up.
Theon has been a hostage for most of his life.
He was Stark's Hostage and treated well.
He finally had a chance to go back home to his family and they rejected him.
He tries to win his family back by striking at the people who defeated his family in battle. He remains rejected.
He is eventually defeated and become hostage again, this time to someone not so nice. His treatment

Theon's hardship has left him broken. That's the reason he sleeps with dogs. Why he goes by the name reek. He is broken. Here is teenager that was skinned alive. Maimed, castrated. He is racked with guilt over his betrayal of the Starks.
Now here he is surprised to see Sansa stark back in winterfell, torn between fear of his tormentor and guilt over what he has done to the Starks.

He should have his own reasons for killing Ramsay by now, and I dont really see how this would change anything.
Have yo not watch the previous seasons?? Do you not understand the dynamic between Thoen and Ramsay and what Ramsay has done to him?
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
8,528
4,040
136
If I thought she had the capacity to avenge anything that would be one thing, but the character as portrayed is simply nothing but a victim to whoever wants to victimize her. As she is now, she is simply a punching bag and I would rather they tell someone elses story than continue down this path. And its not because I have any particular affection for the character, its more like a 'enough already' kinda thing.
Just about every character in the show is undergoing drastic change.
Sansa is becoming less and less of a victim and her return to winterfell is part of this.
She may be manipulated by Letterfinger but she is also learning from him.
 

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
27,573
1,470
126
She is "doing her duty" for the sake of avenging her family.
This scene establishes that she is willing to do what needs to be done for the big picture.
next up:
3some between sansa, ramsey + Miranda (god, she has a NICE body!)
 

Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,450
7
81
Theon has been a hostage for most of his life.
He was Stark's Hostage and treated well.
He finally had a chance to go back home to his family and they rejected him.
He tries to win his family back by striking at the people who defeated his family in battle. He remains rejected.
He is eventually defeated and become hostage again, this time to someone not so nice. His treatment

Theon's hardship has left him broken. That's the reason he sleeps with dogs. Why he goes by the name reek. He is broken. Here is teenager that was skinned alive. Maimed, castrated. He is racked with guilt over his betrayal of the Starks.
Now here he is surprised to see Sansa stark back in winterfell, torn between fear of his tormentor and guilt over what he has done to the Starks.


Have yo not watch the previous seasons?? Do you not understand the dynamic between Thoen and Ramsay and what Ramsay has done to him?
I understand the dynamic, which is why that scene should do nothing to change that dynamic. If getting castrated, tortured and humiliated didnt get him to either take his own life or try to take Ramsay's life, this latest thing is like going to the movies for Theon.

Now it may very well be that next episode Theon becomes a hero, but thats weak sauce. And it would seem to allude to a bigger issue for the show that once the producers really do their own thing, the show is going to suffer. Its hard to tell as it may have just been really off episode, but the wedding night and the snakes fight scene are just...crap. I literally had a why am I watching this moment, which was different than the 'omg they killed off the best character in the show I dont want to watch anymore' feeling.
 
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Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
8
81
There is no justice in the show, so its just yet another crappy thing happening to a decent character. I dont think there will ever be a payoff that justifies all the evil deeds in the show.
Plenty of people have been served justice on this show. Sometimes it's just awful things happening to happen to them like with Theon, but other times the wronged parties really do get to deliver justice, like with Tywin, Shae, Janos Slynt, and to some extent Joffrey. And as frustrating as Overyn's defeat was at least we can say that the Mountain lost his humanity if not his life. I also doubt good things are in store for Roose or Ramsay.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
856
126
I understand the dynamic, which is why that scene should do nothing to change that dynamic. If getting castrated, tortured and humiliated didnt get him to either take his own life or try to take Ramsay's life, this latest thing is like going to the movies for Theon.

Now it may very well be that next episode Theon becomes a hero, but thats weak sauce. And it would seem to allude to a bigger issue for the show that once the producers really do their own thing, the show is going to suffer. Its hard to tell as it may have just been really off episode, but the wedding night and the snakes fight scene are just...crap. I literally had a why am I watching this moment, which was different than the 'omg they killed off the best character in the show I dont want to watch anymore' feeling.
You apparently DON'T understand. Ramsay has screwed him up so much that he fears that even this is a trick to get him to step up so he could be punished again... a fate worse than death. It's why he didn't leave when his sister came to rescue him. He feared even the remote possibility that it could be another sadistic trick by Ramsay.

When Sansa accepts him again and finds out that her brothers are alive, you will remember this scene and see why it was needed.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
856
126
Plenty of people have been served justice on this show. Sometimes it's just awful things happening to happen to them like with Theon, but other times the wronged parties really do get to deliver justice, like with Tywin, Shae, Janos Slynt, and to some extent Joffrey. And as frustrating as Overyn's defeat was at least we can say that the Mountain lost his humanity if not his life. I also doubt good things are in store for Roose or Ramsay.
They have a thing for making the horrible people sympathetic before something terrible happens to them, like The Hound. That makes the justice bittersweet.

Remember when Jaime Lannister pushed Bran out the window to cover up his incestuous relationship and tried to have him killed when he survived even though he couldn't remember what he had seen? Remember when he killed a relative he was imprisoned with when captured by Rob Stark's army? Yeah.

"Boo hoo" he lost his hand.
"Boo hoo" the woman he loves hates him.
"Boo hoo" about his honor being tarnished by the whole "Kingslayer" thing.

Screw Jaime.
 
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Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
8
81
I understand the dynamic, which is why that scene should do nothing to change that dynamic. If getting castrated, tortured and humiliated didnt get him to either take his own life or try to take Ramsay's life, this latest thing is like going to the movies for Theon.
There's more to this than who hurt Theon the most.

Ramsay completely broke him down psychologically, by destroying him then appearing to give him some manner of mercy as a slave pet. He has some combination of Stockholm syndrome and a really deeply ingrained and paralyzing fear.

I've seen people wonder how Sansa could mean anything when his own sister rescuing him didn't. The thing to realize here is that he only briefly spent any time with Yasha as an adult, meaning that these memories would be the easiest to override and destroy with shock. Ramsay also already set up a fake rescue attempt to further break him. He already came to the realization that his real family was never there for them and he couldn't trust or rely on them to begin with. Plus the other Iron Islands soldiers he brought with him already betrayed him. And he has so thoroughly lost hope in something as unlikely as a rescue that he simply can't believe it. Finally, IIRC Ramsay was right there at the time, so even if he believed Yasha really meant to save him he'd still be scared that if she failed he'd be heavily punished, and in his mind Ramsay may well appear invincible.

Sansa, on the other hand, is someone he grew up with, and the circumstances make it more apparent that she's not just acting as part of Ramsay's game. Ramsay has also been referring to him as Theon again in some contexts, diluting the Reek identity. Combine that with the real guilt Theon has in betraying Sansa and I can see this making enough of an impact to make him act in some way.
 

Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,450
7
81
You apparently DON'T understand. Ramsay has screwed him up so much that he fears that even this is a trick to get him to step up so he could be punished again... a fate worse than death. It's why he didn't leave when his sister came to rescue him. He feared even the remote possibility that it could be another sadistic trick by Ramsay.

When Sansa accepts him again and finds out that her brothers are alive, you will remember this scene and see why it was needed.
There's more to this than who hurt Theon the most.

Ramsay completely broke him down psychologically, by destroying him then appearing to give him some manner of mercy as a slave pet. He has some combination of Stockholm syndrome and a really deeply ingrained and paralyzing fear.

I've seen people wonder how Sansa could mean anything when his own sister rescuing him didn't. The thing to realize here is that he only briefly spent any time with Yasha as an adult, meaning that these memories would be the easiest to override and destroy with shock. Ramsay also already set up a fake rescue attempt to further break him. He already came to the realization that his real family was never there for them and he couldn't trust or rely on them to begin with. Plus the other Iron Islands soldiers he brought with him already betrayed him. And he has so thoroughly lost hope in something as unlikely as a rescue that he simply can't believe it. Finally, IIRC Ramsay was right there at the time, so even if he believed Yasha really meant to save him he'd still be scared that if she failed he'd be heavily punished, and in his mind Ramsay may well appear invincible.

Sansa, on the other hand, is someone he grew up with, and the circumstances make it more apparent that she's not just acting as part of Ramsay's game. Ramsay has also been referring to him as Theon again in some contexts, diluting the Reek identity. Combine that with the real guilt Theon has in betraying Sansa and I can see this making enough of an impact to make him act in some way.

I will never sympathize with Theon...you cut off my dick, I'm going to dedicate my life to killing you. And who cares if you fail and he beats you up some more. Besides, in general Theon is a POS. He fingered his own sister, was going to kill his adopted brothers to make himself feel good, and when he couldnt find them, killed some other kids. He doesnt really deserve to be redeemed, especially at the expense of a significant character. If the wedding night was the catalyst for Theon breaking out of this situation, I dont really see how they could frame it so that it makes sense. Unless he cuts off Ramsay's dong and shoves it down his throat and it just feels real satisfying. Ramsay will probably end up killing him.
 
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pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
8,528
4,040
136
There's more to this than who hurt Theon the most.

Ramsay completely broke him down psychologically, by destroying him then appearing to give him some manner of mercy as a slave pet. He has some combination of Stockholm syndrome and a really deeply ingrained and paralyzing fear.

I've seen people wonder how Sansa could mean anything when his own sister rescuing him didn't. The thing to realize here is that he only briefly spent any time with Yasha as an adult, meaning that these memories would be the easiest to override and destroy with shock. Ramsay also already set up a fake rescue attempt to further break him. He already came to the realization that his real family was never there for them and he couldn't trust or rely on them to begin with. Plus the other Iron Islands soldiers he brought with him already betrayed him. And he has so thoroughly lost hope in something as unlikely as a rescue that he simply can't believe it. Finally, IIRC Ramsay was right there at the time, so even if he believed Yasha really meant to save him he'd still be scared that if she failed he'd be heavily punished, and in his mind Ramsay may well appear invincible.

Sansa, on the other hand, is someone he grew up with, and the circumstances make it more apparent that she's not just acting as part of Ramsay's game. Ramsay has also been referring to him as Theon again in some contexts, diluting the Reek identity. Combine that with the real guilt Theon has in betraying Sansa and I can see this making enough of an impact to make him act in some way.

He spent most of his childhood being reminded by various characters that he is not a "Stark".
He learned to late that didn't mean that the Starks were not his family.
Ned wasn't his biological father but he raised him.
Sansa was not his true sister but they shared a family. she was effectively his sister.

You have Theon who betrayed the starks and You have the Boltons who betrayed the Starks all under one roof.
How they play out the return of the Stark blood is going to be interesting, especially with Sansa stepping up under Littlefinger's direction.
The scene with Sansa in the bath shows that she is no longer the scared little girl relying on others to get her through hardship.
The last scene leads the viewer to believe that Theon is going to play a significant role in how things play out.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
8,528
4,040
136
I will never sympathize with Theon...you cut off my dick, I'm going to dedicate my life to killing you. And who cares if you fail and he beats you up some more. Besides, in general Theon is a POS. He fingered his own sister, was going to kill his adopted brothers to make himself feel good, and when he couldnt find them, killed some other kids. He doesnt really deserve to be redeemed, especially at the expense of a significant character.
You left out a few things.
Castration.
Flayed.
Beaten.
Maimed.
Psychological torture over an extended period of time.
All this occurring right after he was rejected by his father (and his own people) and realized he betrayed the only family he ever had. A family who held him hostage after killing and defeating members of his real family.

Also he did not set out to kill his brothers. He killed the two boys to cover the fact that he had failed in his search and to stifle any issues that would result with villagers thinking the starks are still out there.
 
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Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,450
7
81
You left out a few things.
Castration.
Flayed.
Beaten.
Maimed.
Psychological torture over an extended period of time.
All this occurring right after he was rejected by his father (and his own people) and realized he betrayed the only family he ever had. A family who held him hostage after killing and defeating memebrs of his real family.
I dont really remember the details of Season 1, but I thought Theon living with the Starks was part of a treaty or something. But its not like the Starks abused him, and he turned on them. All the things that happened to him are a result of that. But the problem I have with the Theon storyline is the same I have with Sansa...enough with the abuse already. If they dont really have anything to say with those storylines, continue telling someone elses story.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
856
126
I dont really remember the details of Season 1, but I thought Theon living with the Starks was part of a treaty or something. But its not like the Starks abused him, and he turned on them. All the things that happened to him are a result of that. But the problem I have with the Theon storyline is the same I have with Sansa...enough with the abuse already. If they dont really have anything to say with those storylines, continue telling someone elses story.
What makes you think they don't have anything else to say? Wait for the next episode for Pete's sake!
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
8,528
4,040
136
I dont really remember the details of Season 1, but I thought Theon living with the Starks was part of a treaty or something. But its not like the Starks abused him, and he turned on them. All the things that happened to him are a result of that. But the problem I have with the Theon storyline is the same I have with Sansa...enough with the abuse already. If they dont really have anything to say with those storylines, continue telling someone elses story.

I suggest you refer to the HBO site which does a good job of covering the details
http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season-5/episode-6/histories/5/the-greyjoy-rebellion
 

Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,643
9
81
She also didn't object or fight: zero indication it was rape. It's possible to be consenting and not like doing it...

That said arranged marriages are all rape because they are coercive.
Sure she didn't object or fight, but the implication was clear she wouldn't give consent. She couldn't say that because arranged marriages are coercive and she had no other options outside killing him. With Reek/Theon right there.
 

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