Game of Thrones - TV Series (NO BOOK SPOILERS)

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Feb 6, 2007
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why wasn't there an archer with Grenn's group to hold the Gate, especially since there's a 2nd gate to delay them if they get past the first?

hell, why not give all 5 men bows + arrows? u don't even have to aim. the enemy will be confined in a tunnel. just shoot straight.
take a few more down b4 the 2nd gate falls?
They were fighting a giant. A giant who had already been shot dozens of times and didn't seem much worse the wear for it. A normal arrow to a giant is like a chopstick to you; yeah, with enough of them piercing you, it will probably take you down, but the first hundred are just going to feel like shitty acupuncture. We saw that the interior gate was smashed open in a corner, which likely came from the giant's initial charge (which took all of 20 seconds). Basically, even if every Crow left was firing arrows at that thing, they weren't taking it down before it breached the defenses, and when it gets its hands on you, it makes the Mountain look like the Imp. That said, they had a giant steel anchor embedded in the wall; why not use some of that steel to make a wall three feet thick in the tunnel? What giant is getting through that?

Also, a complaint about the episode; the battle clearly takes place at night (either that or the contrast on my TV is broken). When they open the gate for Jon to leave, it's daylight, indicating that several hours have passed since the battle broke. Yet Jon talks to Sam as if they're just finding the bodies of the Crows and the giant in the tunnel for the first time. Either they all went to sleep for a few hours without bothering to figure out whether or not the tunnel was actually breached, or they figured out the tunnel was secure, left the corpses overnight and came back in the morning... but that doesn't make any sense, because Jon's immediate command is to burn them to ensure they don't come back as ice zombies. Either way, they completely shit the bed dealing with the tunnel defense in the wake of the battle. Investigate it, ensure you're still secure, burn the potential zombie corpses and THEN take a nap. No wonder Jon was made a steward.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
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I thought the most important scene regarding his leadership development was when he told that one guy to gather 5 men and hold the inner gate and then he stressed to him a second time to "hold the gate". He is essentially potentially sending one of his most trusted allies to his death and he knows it and his buddy knows it.

I also really like how the buddy managed to prevent the other 5 guys from abandoning the gate in the face of the giant's charge. We're talking about known criminals displaying courage and honor in the defense of a wall and of ideas and of people who have shunned them. I thought it was very moving even though such a short scene.
They did a lot to build Jon's character as a leader and someone people will follow.

My favorite part of the episode is it pretty much proved people will cry about everything, no matter what. We have people crying they have too much in every episode, people crying they need more episodes per season, and people crying the episode had too much of one story.
 

Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,643
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Why would any major plot point be the fault of the writers of the show material? Any large point was already written by GRRM. Every character's actions (especially major ones) are already "set in stone" so to speak.
If they cut people mentioning plot points for a whole season only to "surprise" us now it's pretty clear that's the HBO writers faults. Actually no matter where he takes his army it's ambigious and poorly written as it stands. How many times have we seen Stannis? Last season he said "lets go to the wall", this season he says "if we don't act now on the claim to the throne it's bad".

OK. So where is Stannis going with his army? No matter where he goes someone will be able to say "but I thought he was headed there instead".
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
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Geez all the freakin' bickering!

I've completely had it with the story's glacial pace, and their constant focus on the Lannisters. But I continued on and watched Sundays episode... and it was one of the best in a long, long time.

The majority of the show is quick shots of the different plotlines, and usually go little further than "He did this, she did that" and move on to a different scene, leaving the show full of characters with flat, stereotyped personalities.

That episode was one of the rare where there was actual depth to a character who is not a fucking Lannister.

But oh no, what about Oberyn?!! And his big death last episode?!! We want yet another episode of flat one-dimensional characters playing out stereotyped roles? The whole series is filled with such episodes. There will be another one next week, you can count on it.
 

squarecut1

Platinum Member
Nov 1, 2013
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Aww...that was so cute. The readhead dying in the arms of Jon Snow. The savage wildlings all around were so nice to leave Jon alone to enjoy his last tender moments with the girl. That was the producers way of showing that the wildlings DO care - about TV ratings...and the sales figures of Kleenex :)

Just like the readhead kills the guy next to Sam with an arrow through his neck, stands there for a few seconds to pose, and then conveniently leaves Sam alone. Nice people, these wildlings :)
 

blackdogdeek

Lifer
Mar 14, 2003
14,454
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They did a lot to build Jon's character as a leader and someone people will follow.

My favorite part of the episode is it pretty much proved people will cry about everything, no matter what. We have people crying they have too much in every episode, people crying they need more episodes per season, and people crying the episode had too much of one story.
Personally, I thought your comment was much too short and could use more content next week.
 

Squeetard

Senior member
Nov 13, 2004
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Just like the readhead kills the guy next to Sam with an arrow through his neck, stands there for a few seconds to pose, and then conveniently leaves Sam alone. Nice people, these wildlings :)
Sam was hidden below the parapet, basically lying on his back.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
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Investigate it, ensure you're still secure, burn the potential zombie corpses and THEN take a nap. No wonder Jon was made a steward.
Or the battle raged until dawn.

Aww...that was so cute. The readhead dying in the arms of Jon Snow. The savage wildlings all around were so nice to leave Jon alone to enjoy his last tender moments with the girl. That was the producers way of showing that the wildlings DO care - about TV ratings...and the sales figures of Kleenex :)
Or the tide of the battle had changed because John brought backup (so much so the kid was confident in shooting an arrow)

Just like the readhead kills the guy next to Sam with an arrow through his neck, stands there for a few seconds to pose, and then conveniently leaves Sam alone. Nice people, these wildlings :)
He was ducked down; just like Sam's friend was except when he popped his head up to shoot.


Why are people so desperate to see plot errors that rely tenuous assumptions?

Spoiler: people are a dickholes.
 

AstroManLuca

Lifer
Jun 24, 2004
15,628
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The only thing I didn't quite understand is why waste the wildlings on the other side of the wall if you were just probing defenses. It seems like one would be better off holding them back until the major attack when the defenses were already pushed to breaking. I get that without them being used we'd never have Jon lose Ygritte and tie up that storyline. Tactically speaking though, I'm very unclear what they were hoping to gain using them then.
You wanna talk about strategy, why did the wildlings try to climb the wall DIRECTLY UNDER where the Night's Watch were defending? They could just hike a mile or two in either direction and climb it far away from the arrows, burning oil, and giant anchor things. And then climb down and attack Castle Black from the south, which is far more effective and basically guaranteed to succeed if enough of them make the climb.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
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Why are people so desperate to see plot errors that rely tenuous assumptions?
Because, as evident in the "omg you said something that aired in last week's episode! spoiler alert!", the majority of people in this thread don't watch the show. They stare blankly at the TV and a few drops of "Jon Snow good, wildlings bad" sticks.
 

wetech

Senior member
Jul 16, 2002
871
6
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That's my point. There are a shitload of things happening all over the place, you've got the Wall and the war between the Ironmen and Bolton in the North, Sandor/Arya and Brienne/Podrick god knows where, Sansa and Petyr trying to pretty much steal control of the Aerie, Danny and her dragons, Messandrei bathing, Stannis doing something else and the fallout of the Mountain vs the Viper and they cover NONE of it to focus an entire episode on what exactly? A minor skirmish that was not even a decisive victory for either side. So much story to coherently cram into 10 1-hour chapters and now they have to cram the same story into only 9 1-hour chapters because they pissed away an entire chapter on nothing.
They're covering the 2nd half of book three this season. The last episode will cover the remaining major plot points from the book. The books are written this way; leaving characters hanging, not everyone's plotline ends in a nice neat spot.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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Or the battle raged until dawn.
It didn't though; we saw the wildlings north of the wall retreating while it was still night, which meant only the wildlings who scaled the wall were left, and most of them had been killed in the courtyard by that point. When they took Tormund, it was clearly still nighttime, and given that he had a dozen people surrounding him, he was likely the last wildling left. The battle was over well before dawn and yet Jon ignored the tunnel corpses for no reason other than an opportunity to stage his exit against an epic shot of the gates opening to reveal the harsh light of fate.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
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You wanna talk about strategy, why did the wildlings try to climb the wall DIRECTLY UNDER where the Night's Watch were defending? They could just hike a mile or two in either direction and climb it far away from the arrows, burning oil, and giant anchor things. And then climb down and attack Castle Black from the south, which is far more effective and basically guaranteed to succeed if enough of them make the climb.
Because Mance is under the impression they Night's Watch has 1000 soldiers. Spreading out his forces after they attack would alert everyone, and with 1000 soldiers, they would be able to defend a vast section of the wall. Focusing everything in a single point and hoping to overrun Castle Black, using far greater numbers makes more sense. Especially, considering the rear assault on that stronghold and the fact that they almost breached the gates with two giants. Imagine if he sent in 10.
 

Xonim

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2011
1,131
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There are two things I noticed about the episode that somewhat bugged me. First, when the kid
shoots Ygrette
, her arrow was drawn and probably should have fired. This was a midnight thought, so I didn't go back to look and see if it did or not -- But I think it should have.

Second, why did John not bring ghost with him when he was leaving castle black?

Overall, I really enjoyed the episode. I'm having a hard time understanding how they're going to semi-tie up all the loose ends (as much as they have in past seasons) with just one episode to go, even if it's a bit extended. My DirecTV guide shows a 75 minute timeslot for next week.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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Second, why did John not bring ghost with him when he was leaving castle black?
My assumption is that he's intending to get captured and seek an audience with Mance. He's walking into 100,000 wildlings who don't know who the hell he is apart from a Crow; if he shows up with a giant wolf, they'll both be killed. Same reason he didn't bring his sword; there's no chance of fighting his way to Mance. Weapons won't help him at this point, and that's what Ghost is.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
13,660
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You wanna talk about strategy, why did the wildlings try to climb the wall DIRECTLY UNDER where the Night's Watch were defending? They could just hike a mile or two in either direction and climb it far away from the arrows, burning oil, and giant anchor things. And then climb down and attack Castle Black from the south, which is far more effective and basically guaranteed to succeed if enough of them make the climb.
Isn't this exactly what they did. They sent a group of wildlings over the wall somewhere it was not protected, had them raid the nearby villages to gather supplies and cut off reinforcement to the wall, then attached it in coordination with the wildlings main force.
Sounds like pretty good strategy to me.
 

Xonim

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2011
1,131
0
0
My assumption is that he's intending to get captured and seek an audience with Mance. He's walking into 100,000 wildlings who don't know who the hell he is apart from a Crow; if he shows up with a giant wolf, they'll both be killed. Same reason he didn't bring his sword; there's no chance of fighting his way to Mance. Weapons won't help him at this point, and that's what Ghost is.
Ah I suppose that makes sense.
 

VulgarDisplay

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2009
6,193
2
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I thought the most important scene regarding his leadership development was when he told that one guy to gather 5 men and hold the inner gate and then he stressed to him a second time to "hold the gate". He is essentially potentially sending one of his most trusted allies to his death and he knows it and his buddy knows it.

I also really like how the buddy managed to prevent the other 5 guys from abandoning the gate in the face of the giant's charge. We're talking about known criminals displaying courage and honor in the defense of a wall and of ideas and of people who have shunned them. I thought it was very moving even though such a short scene.
that part seemed odd time because that character was supposed to be about as smart as hodor. cool way for him to go out, but not really the way he was portrayed through the show.
 

Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,643
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Because Mance is under the impression they Night's Watch has 1000 soldiers. Spreading out his forces after they attack would alert everyone, and with 1000 soldiers, they would be able to defend a vast section of the wall. Focusing everything in a single point and hoping to overrun Castle Black, using far greater numbers makes more sense. Especially, considering the rear assault on that stronghold and the fact that they almost breached the gates with two giants. Imagine if he sent in 10.
Mance has worgs, they could easily verify how many soldiers are there.
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,181
561
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You wanna talk about strategy, why did the wildlings try to climb the wall DIRECTLY UNDER where the Night's Watch were defending? They could just hike a mile or two in either direction and climb it far away from the arrows, burning oil, and giant anchor things. And then climb down and attack Castle Black from the south, which is far more effective and basically guaranteed to succeed if enough of them make the climb.
I honestly keep forgetting there are more to the wall than Castle Black. I didn't read the books and they rarely speak of the wall outside of the castle. In fact I'm pretty sure the opening credits show the castle taking up most of the wall. While it's distorted in scale it doesn't help my non-book reading brain. I also assume they never try boats because the seas are frozen over up there, but I could be totally mistaken.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
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I honestly keep forgetting there are more to the wall than Castle Black. I didn't read the books and they rarely speak of the wall outside of the castle. In fact I'm pretty sure the opening credits show the castle taking up most of the wall. While it's distorted in scale it doesn't help my non-book reading brain. I also assume they never try boats because the seas are frozen over up there, but I could be totally mistaken.
There are 3 main castles and a bunch of towers. The only castle actually manned anymore is Castle Black.

There is a sea, but wildings have no ships or experience on the sea.

This link is the map of the wall, it might have spoilers (I don't think so), but it does have places labeled. One such label is misleading, as it is referring to Brandon the Builder, who gave the Night's Watch a bunch of land to farm; not Bran Stark from the current story. http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110708124258/gameofthrones/images/c/ca/The_Wall_Map.PNG
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
107,964
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If they have Stannis save the day at the wall it'll be a massive ball drop on the writers this season. Has he even mentioned the wall at all since the last season when the red lady convinced him to go?
i was wondering this yesterday, because it's as if they abandoned that entirely this season.

I thought there was the scene where the Red Woman said Stannis' daughter had to go north instead of staying at Dragonstone like the Stannis' wife wanted.
I think you're correct. When Fire crotch basically said that she is going to sacrifice Stannis' shingle-faced daughter.

Why would any major plot point be the fault of the writers of the show material? Any large point was already written by GRRM. Every character's actions (especially major ones) are already "set in stone" so to speak.
Well, it could be terrible writing. whether or not it is set in stone, if the writers don't adequately address it, it still seems to have come out of nowhere for the audience.

Now, Season 3 did end with Stannis planning to head North, but that has barely been mentioned this season. More of there conversations have been about what to do now that Joff's is dead and if they should take advantage of this situation. It seems, as nehalem mentioned, that the only suggestion of heading north was FireCrotch taking the daughter to set her ablaze or something. Makes sense--cant' imagine what would frighten the snow zombies more... o_O

Could have missed this as well, but does it mean that Stannis is dividing his attention? sending FireCrotch with her magic to go fight magic evil things, and the bulk of his army south to go fight normal human things?

FC did save Onion man when she told Stannis that Stannis would need Onion Man at his side (Season 3). I think she was basically saying that she goes north to deal with zombies, and Stannis will head south--without her at his side, he would then need 5-finger Onion knight.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,742
4,530
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I like the actors. I love all the talent in front of and behind the camera. I love the gorgeous locations, the drama, the whit. But "epic battles" just fall flat in GoT. And honestly, it's just as well. Because shows with huge battles and epic confrontations at the expense of story are all over the place. But dang, it would be sweet to eat ones cake and have it too. I'm never under the belief that there are a tenth as many soldiers fighting as the dialogue seems to suggest.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
78
86
Well, a lot of Stannis' story this season was him building an army with his money, I'd assume. Hiring mercenaries and then marching whichever direction he was. The red priest stated flat out that he has to go north. He is a bit torn, as with Joffery being dead, he sees it as a good time to strike.

It isn't so much bad writing, as the intentional omission of Stannis looking over troops and ordering ships. Nobody gives a shit about that. Hell, he was burning people alive and people still cried he was boring. The important parts of his story have been shown. Where that leads, I would imagine is going to also be shown at some point.
 

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