Game of Thrones - TV Series (NO BOOK SPOILERS)

[Printer Bandit]

get out of the closet, book readers.

 

[CZroe]

Maybe she stole the gem not to poison the drink, but to plant it where it would incriminate Sansa for the murder?

That's all anyone ever expected. Who honestly thought the gem was poison? Talking about her hand over the cup was inferring that she put poison in it. The reason her hands look empty in between is because she put the jewel in her pocket.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

Blankslate and Mongrel have been asked to refrain from posting in this thread. The rest of you can get back to discussing this television show rather than bickering and arguing over who spoiled who. -Admin DrPizza

the usurper blankslate...tsssssssss!
the usurper mongrel...tssssss!

the god of goats has answered our prayers

 

[Ichinisan]

the usurper blankslate...tsssssssss!
the usurper mongrel...tssssss!

the god of goats has answered our prayers

:awe:

 

[techs]

wtf? why the hell aren't you banned yet?

you do realize that comment is EXACTLY what was forbidden from you openly-professed, nerdgasming bookreaders? seriously, dude. as annoyed as I get with constant witch-hunt spoiler attacks that aren't spoilers, this comment is exactly what was forbidden.

Spoiler

I haven't read the books. i never will. if you doubt that, you can spend the time searching these forums to disprove that comment. it will be tough--there are probably hundreds of comments scattered throughout these pages were I endlessly shit on the entire fantasy genre, even 98% of sci fi, and well before these shows were released. I think I've annoyed enough fantasy readers in these forums, that not a single person would believe your blind assertion.

nm

 

[techs]

That's all anyone ever expected. Who honestly thought the gem was poison? Talking about her hand over the cup was inferring that she put poison in it. The reason her hands look empty in between is because she put the jewel in her pocket.

Doh. Seriously, I though the gem was actually a dissolving poison and the guise of the gems was used because that way they could see the other gems were also poison to prove Sansa's involvement.

 

[techs]

Blankslate and Mongrel have been asked to refrain from posting in this thread. The rest of you can get back to discussing this television show rather than bickering and arguing over who spoiled who. -Admin DrPizza

Great, now I don't have to take any more abuse for my campaign to get those guys out this thread. To you nasty people who tore into me in public and private and to you poor misguided souls who actually defended them, well, the ignore list works on you also.

 

[Spineshank]

Blankslate and Mongrel have been asked to refrain from posting in this thread. The rest of you can get back to discussing this television show rather than bickering and arguing over who spoiled who. -Admin DrPizza

Love Holy Grail.

 

[CZroe]

Or maybe he's SO smart that he wants us to BELIEVE if it were his plan he'd be half a planet away when instead he made it to look like it was too obvious to be him.

Such deniability didn't work when it came to the assasin with his knife. He was still taken prisoner and tried.

 

[Ichinisan]

Doh. Seriously, I though the gem was actually a dissolving poison and the guise of the gems was used because that way they could see the other gems were also poison to prove Sansa's involvement.

Yeah, but that would be a weak point where the plan could fall apart if Sansa decided not to wear it after all, or she somehow poisoned herself before it could all go down. I still think the jewel is only meant to implicate Sansa and wasn't poisoned.

 

[CZroe]

No, but it makes him the least likely suspect. He's never been shown as anything other than a monumental screw-up. It would be a deus ex machina moment if he suddenly got his act together well enough to plot the murder of a king. I think he's just a drunk who is smitten with Sansa, not a co-conspirator. If he was involved in any way it would be more reasonable to believe that he's an unwitting patsy being used by somebody more intelligent in case something went wrong.

Not "unwitting." It's clear to me that Lady Tyrell got the fancy necklace she wanted and put the drunk up to it. His job was to ensure that Sansa received it and wore it to the wedding and his story about being the last of his family did the trick. Heck, she probably even loosened the stone first.

I still doubt it had anything to do with the poisoning because I think Cersei and Tywin did it. Cersei has already demonstrated that she is willing to poison her own child (Battle of Blackwater) and discussed with Tywin that losing control of Joffery is a problem that they will address. With her other son, they have more control and only stand to gain. She refused to give up her title as Queen in the leftovers dispute as if she knew what was going to happen and she immediately blamed Tyrion when everything went down. They both hate Tyrion and putting the blame on him means no bad blood with other houses.

 

[Ichinisan]

Maybe the Dornish Prince Oberyn too? Though I think Tywin would have been his target and I also don't think he would be very discrete. Still, his involvement is possible.

 

[techs]

Maybe the Dornish Prince Oberyn too? Though I think Tywin would have been his target and I also don't think he would be very discrete. Still, his involvement is possible.

Basically everyone except Tyrion is a suspect at this point. Then again, maybe Tyrion did do it.....


One thing I am predicting is that we won't get the answer right away. It wouldn't surprise me if we didn't get any scenes of Kings Landing this coming episode.

 

[crownjules]

Yeah, but that would be a weak point where the plan could fall apart if Sansa decided not to wear it after all, or she somehow poisoned herself before it could all go down. I still think the jewel is only meant to implicate Sansa and wasn't poisoned.

The only thing that makes me think it's more than just a way to implicate Sansa was Dontos's comment. When he gave the necklace to her he said 'let something about my house have one last chance to shine before it fades forever' (paraphrased). It just seems too symbolic to be used as a framing device.

 

[Phoenix86]

Basically everyone except Tyrion is a suspect at this point. Then again, maybe Tyrion did do it.....


One thing I am predicting is that we won't get the answer right away. It wouldn't surprise me if we didn't get any scenes of Kings Landing this coming episode.

Well we're covering a lot of possible scenarios, someone will be close enough to say "ah-ha!".

Noticed another very brief scene rewatching it again, Twin stands near Joffery looking down and seems to smirk as he's choking.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Not "unwitting." It's clear to me that Lady Tyrell got the fancy necklace she wanted and put the drunk up to it. His job was to ensure that Sansa received it and wore it to the wedding and his story about being the last of his family did the trick. Heck, she probably even loosened the stone first.

Uhhh, you're arguing against yourself.

If Dontos was involved whoever was pulling the strings would say something like "okay, now you take the poison necklace to Sansa, be very careful because if you're caught with it you'll be executed...." while an unwitting accomplice would be handled like "Ser Dontos, please deliver this perfectly ordinary necklace to Sansa, she will be sweet on you for such a lovely gesture..."

Which do you think really happened? There is not a single shred of evidence to suggest that Dontos was involved in any substantive way. He's never been shown to be anything other than a fuck-up, do you honestly believe that whoever masterminded the murder of a king would let Dontos in on the details? That's freaking ridiculous. His role, if any, was unwitting.

 

[Printer Bandit]

the only person that talked about killing someone at a wedding in the episode was that Granny-in-Law lady.

 

[quikah]

Which do you think really happened? There is not a single shred of evidence to suggest that Dontos was involved in any substantive way. He's never been shown to be anything other than a fuck-up, do you honestly believe that whoever masterminded the murder of a king would let Dontos in on the details? That's freaking ridiculous. His role, if any, was unwitting.

So the almost instant popping up to wisk Sansa away doesn't seem suspicious to you?

 

[BladeVenom]

Yeah, but that would be a weak point where the plan could fall apart if Sansa decided not to wear it after all, or she somehow poisoned herself before it could all go down.

They were counting on Sansa not sticking the jewels in her mouth or food. Which I think is a fairly safe assumption.

I still think the jewel is only meant to implicate Sansa and wasn't poisoned.

How Could the jewels be able to implicate Sansa if they weren't poison?

 

[GagHalfrunt]

So the almost instant popping up to wisk Sansa away doesn't seem suspicious to you?

Not suspicious, easily can be viewed as part of the plan. A lot of people knew Dontos had a crush on Sansa and a lot of people knew that Dontos was a complete loser who was easy to manipulate. Sansa is a valuable piece of merchandise to the people who are playing the game at that level, they would either want to protect her or control her, depending on long term plans. Why is it so difficult to believe that whoever orchestrated the killing of a King in front of hundreds of witnesses would not also whisper something in Dontos ear to stay near Sansa at the feast and get her away quickly in the event of trouble so that she would love him forever? Dontos was a pawn, to believe otherwise would require him to be the Keyser Soze of Game of Thrones and GRRM has shown no inclination for Deus ex machina moments like that. If Dontos was involved I think we would have been shown some little clue to suggest that he was more than a drunken nobody.

 

[zinfamous]

Which do you think really happened? There is not a single shred of evidence to suggest that Dontos was involved in any substantive way. He's never been shown to be anything other than a fuck-up, do you honestly believe that whoever masterminded the murder of a king would let Dontos in on the details? That's freaking ridiculous. His role, if any, was unwitting.

So the almost instant popping up to wisk Sansa away doesn't seem suspicious to you?

This, I think GagHalfrunt is forgetting the part where Dantos is shown to be the only person with any rather clear for-knowlege about what just happened.

unless you want to argue that in light of the situation, he knows that Sansa is immediately in trouble; but then that would show him to be more than just a fuckup, so that also contradicts the argument against his involvement.

I think the only reason we haven't seen him be anything but a fuckup, is just for that reason--because we have forgotten about him.

Here is what we do know:

--He was once a knight--and, I think, a well-respected knight?
--He is (or became?) a drunkard
--His family and house are gone--wiped out through war or maybe debt?

I think the loss of his family name and station explains the drunkeness. I'm guessing he wasn't always a fuckup, and is certainly more than capable of being useful when he has a purpose. I'd say being part of a plot to kill the little bitch Joffrey would be that purpose. There's certainly backstory that isn't presented in the show. Not yet, anyway.

I don't think there is any question that he was an informed perpetrator. The real question is who else is part of it.

from the preview clips for next episode (yes, that would mean spoiler):

Spoiler

I doubt Margery having knowledge of it from one conversation shown with her grandmother. She seems upset that they will no longer have a claim to the throne

 

[zinfamous]

Dontos was a pawn, to believe otherwise would require him to be the Keyser Soze of Game of Thrones and GRRM has shown no inclination for Deus ex machina moments like that. If Dontos was involved I think we would have been shown some little clue to suggest that he was more than a drunken nobody.

well, those clues were actually shown in the first episode this season in his conversation with Sansa. We do have reason to believe that he wasn't a fuckup his entire life.

We honestly don't know that much about him based on what we have seen, but there are certainly clues that he was once a man of means and, perhaps, considerable skill. He's very self-reflective and clearly laments what he has become.

Call it cheap, but such doubts that you have can be easily cleared up by revelations of his past in an upcoming episode. I think the only reason you have no reason to believe otherwise is simply a deliberate choice to withhold that from the audience.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

I think the loss of his family name and station explains the drunkeness. I'm guessing he wasn't always a fuckup, and is certainly more than capable of being useful when he has a purpose. I'd say being part of a plot to kill the little bitch Joffrey would be that purpose. There's certainly backstory that isn't presented in the show. Not yet, anyway.

I don't think there is any question that he was an informed perpetrator. The real question is who else is part of it.

so you're still making the leap to whatever criminal mastermind orchestrated the murder placing their life and complete trust in a drunk. No matter what Dontos was before, he's a fuck-up NOW. So try to think this through, you got somebody with 100 balls in the air plotting to kill a king in broad daylight in front of witnesses and that person puts not only the success of the plan, but their own life and the safety of their house and heirs, in the hands of Ser Dontos. Why? What's the upside of letting Dontos in on the details? He could EASILY have been convinced to deliver the necklace to Sansa. He could easily have been convinced to stick close to Sansa and see to her safety, he pretty much self-appointed himself as her protector anyway. Dontos's entire role did not require knowledge of the plan. He could have and/or would have done those things at a mere suggestion. So why let a person who can't be trusted in on the details when there is absolutely no upside to do it while there would potentially be 1000 reasons why it could come back to bite the mastermind on the ass? Until you can figure out a benefit to having Dontos in on the plans the idea that he was a co-conspirator is pure nonsense. So what's the upside?

Dontos, stay close to Sansa, she counts on you to protect her...
or
Dontos, we're killing Joffrey, stay close to Sansa

Not too difficult to figure out which way the mastermind would go.

 

[Ichinisan]

Uhhh, you're arguing against yourself.

If Dontos was involved whoever was pulling the strings would say something like "okay, now you take the poison necklace to Sansa, be very careful because if you're caught with it you'll be executed...." while an unwitting accomplice would be handled like "Ser Dontos, please deliver this perfectly ordinary necklace to Sansa, she will be sweet on you for such a lovely gesture..."

Which do you think really happened? There is not a single shred of evidence to suggest that Dontos was involved in any substantive way. He's never been shown to be anything other than a fuck-up, do you honestly believe that whoever masterminded the murder of a king would let Dontos in on the details? That's freaking ridiculous. His role, if any, was unwitting.

I really don't think so. I think he would definitely go along willingly with a plan to assassinate his tormentor.

Did you see how he was trying to get Sansa out of there ASAP?

I'm pretty sure Cersei had something to do with it, but I think Dontos knew what was going on.

 

[Ichinisan]

... How Could the jewels be able to implicate Sansa if they weren't poison?

Not much of an imagination there, eh?

Having a jewel that's missing from her necklace can be used to imply her involvement in something she had nothing to do with.

For example: They find where the poison came from. They find a jewel there. They see that it matches the other jewels on Sansa's necklace and also see that she's missing one.

That's off the top of my head.