Game of Thrones - TV Series (NO BOOK SPOILERS)

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blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
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I just caught up with the TV show. After season 1, read 1st book and then finished season 2 of show. Forgive me for not going through the entire thread to see if this has already been discussed: the identity of Jon Snow. Could Jon Snow be in fact a Targaryen? A union between Rhaegar Targaryen and Ned Stark's sister. That explains why his identity is pretty well guarded by Ned and his (Ned) disagreement with Robert concerning the remaining surviving Targaryen children. Also given that Ned was the most honorable man of Westeros, he probably did not cheat on his wife and only wish to protect his nephew. Given what little to go on it does seem plausible.
You probably should've used spoiler tags for that. It is a popular theory amongst many people who have read the books and if it turns out to be accurate it's a book spoiler.
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
10,814
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If you people think HBO is going to make a TV season (or two) for each book, you're absolutely nuts. They wouldn't even be able to use the same cast as they'd all be BEYOND a believable age for their counterparts in the novels. Not to mention the cost of the series.
Why would the overall cost of the series matter? If they are going to spend money on a show might as be a proven one with a following. It would be the cost per season that matters.
 

Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
28,506
2,161
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Why would the overall cost of the series matter? If they are going to spend money on a show might as be a proven one with a following. It would be the cost per season that matters.
many shows in HBOs history have been stopped short due one of the major issues being budgets.

The main issue though is going to be the aging of the actors.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,198
166
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I just caught up with the TV show. After season 1, read 1st book and then finished season 2 of show.

Forgive me for not going through the entire thread to see if this has already been discussed: the identity of Jon Snow.

Could Jon Snow be in fact a Targaryen? A union between Rhaegar Targaryen and Ned Stark's sister. That explains why his identity is pretty well guarded by Ned and his (Ned) disagreement with Robert concerning the remaining surviving Targaryen children. Also given that Ned was the most honorable man of Westeros, he probably did not cheat on his wife and only wish to protect his nephew.

Given what little to go on it does seem plausible.
This is a bit of spoiler from the book events of GoT and CoK. Its less clear on the show.
There are elements of symbolism from Ned's isolation induced hallucinations and Dany's trek through the house of undying that allude to this. Before Ned's death he is haunted by an unindentified promise he made to his dying sister and wishes to talk with Jon once more. We are meant to think she was murdered and dying but she may well have been dying from child birth complications. The promise may have been to keep Jon safe, her only child. And given the fate of the Tragaryen children in Westeroes Ned sacrifices his honor and claims him as his own bastard to protect him. While its likely it actually doesn't change things significantly. Jon Snow is still a bastard and has no claim to the iron throne which even if he did was given up when he joined the watch. It might mean he is destined to be one of the three dragon riders though.

There is one surviving character that must know the truth though. Howland Reed is the only other person besides Ned that survived the encounter at the Tower of Joy.
 
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Ricochet

Diamond Member
Oct 31, 1999
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You probably should've used spoiler tags for that. It is a popular theory amongst many people who have read the books and if it turns out to be accurate it's a book spoiler.
I've only read one book and it doesn't give much more than the TV show. I had that suspicion without the book.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
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I don't think so. The first two books were one season each. The third book is going to be divided into two season. I don't think books 4 and 5 will each be split into two season. It will only be two seasons for both of them combined, three at most.

So much of books 4 and 5 are filler, long journeys, repetitive actions, long descriptions, and soul searching that will be cut out of the TV show. Much of it should have been cut out of the book by its editor.

No one wants to hear, "have you seen a maid of thee and ten," over and over again. Or watch long journeys with drinking and pissing being about the only thing that happens. Or watch the river turtles. Most of the soul searching that goes on in book 5 will be cut; inner monologues won't happen in the TV show.

You won't have all the descriptions of urination, bowel movements, and menstrual cycles that make it into the book.
"Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water." -ADWD
Little bit of DWD spoiler.
I'm most of the way though DWD now. I can't defend FfC...that was mostly filler and stories and characters that frankly should have been edited out of the series or only deserved a couple chapters. DWD has been a lot better though. I'll admit Tyrion's tale reminds me of Arya's helpless bouncing around in books 2 and 3 but the North/wall has been interesting. Dany's story has been similar to how it always has: Lots of political inaction combined with epic moments.
 
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PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,198
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many shows in HBOs history have been stopped short due one of the major issues being budgets.

The main issue though is going to be the aging of the actors.
I don't know why you think the aging of the actors is such a big deal. The show characters are already older than the book characters and frankly the young ages of the book characters were rather unbelievable.
 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
12,250
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so what is the show going to do when they run out of books in a couple years?
not worry because they'll split the bigger books into multiple seasons like they're already going to do with book 3?

7 books = at least 7 seasons which is a pretty big and successful show regardless, and if they start splitting up books into 2 seasons starting with book 3, that's potentially 12 seasons... do they really need more?


I don't know why you think the aging of the actors is such a big deal. The show characters are already older than the book characters and frankly the young ages of the book characters were rather unbelievable.
yeah, I don't think GRRM is very good with elapsing time either

he keeps showing that time is moving forward what with Danny getting pregnant, having the baby, and then other clues such as fortnights passing and autumn hitting hard with storms (and of course his reference that seasons last years), and yet all the same while he keeps referring to the same characters as the same ages when it seems clear to me that at least 2 years have passed unless fortnights and pregnancy cycles are just as messed up as seasons in the realm of ASOIAF
 
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GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,301
1,990
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This is a bit of spoiler from the book events of GoT and CoK. Its less clear on the show.
There are elements of symbolism from Ned's isolation induced hallucinations and Dany's trek through the house of undying that allude to this. Before Ned's death he is haunted by an unindentified promise he made to his dying sister and wishes to talk with Jon once more. We are meant to think she was murdered and dying but she may well have been dying from child birth complications. The promise may have been to keep Jon safe, her only child. And given the fate of the Tragaryen children in Westeroes Ned sacrifices his honor and claims him as his own bastard to protect him. While its likely it actually doesn't change things significantly. Jon Snow is still a bastard and has no claim to the iron throne which even if he did was given up when he joined the watch. It might mean he is destined to be one of the three dragon riders though.

There is one surviving character that must know the truth though. Howland Reed is the only other person besides Ned that survived the encounter at the Tower of Joy.

A couple of problems with that theory:

1) Like the coloring in the house of Baratheon ("the seed is strong") the same holds true for house Targaryen. They're marked by silvery hair and purple eyes, Jon has neither feature. Even the Targaryren bastards had as least one of the physical aspects, many had both.

2) Ned might have sacrificed his own honor for the greater good, but I don't think he would have sacrificed Catelyn's with a lie like that.
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,541
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A couple of problems with that theory:

1) Like the coloring in the house of Baratheon ("the seed is strong") the same holds true for house Targaryen. They're marked by silvery hair and purple eyes, Jon has neither feature. Even the Targaryren bastards had as least one of the physical aspects, many had both.

2) Ned might have sacrificed his own honor for the greater good, but I don't think he would have sacrificed Catelyn's with a lie like that.
1. Silver hair and violet eyes don't seem to be dominant traits. Robert Baratheon's grandmother was Targaryen, and he didn't have any of those traits. The Martells joined the Seven Kingdoms through marriage, and probably married more Targaryens than any other house, but none of the Targaryen traits can be seen in any current Martell.

It's the most popular theory as to who Jon's parents are.

3. Catelyn's honor wasn't sacrificed. She did nothing wrong. Only her stuck up pride was hurt since Ned brought a bastard home.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,301
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1. Silver hair and violet eyes don't seem to be dominant traits. Robert Baratheon's grandmother was Targaryen, and he didn't have any of those traits. The Martells joined the Seven Kingdoms through marriage, and probably married more Targaryens than any other house, but none of the Targaryen traits can be seen in any current Martell.

It's the most popular theory as to who Jon's parents are.
His grandmother, that makes him 2 generations removed from the Targaryen blood line as neither his mother nor his father were true Targaryens. If Jon is really the son of Lyanna then he's half Targaryen, not 1/4 or less like Robert. All the half-blood Targaryen's have either silver hair, purple eyes or both. Jon has neither. It's not impossible that GRRM would wind up making him the son of Lyanna/Rhaegar, but he would need to break his own genetic rules to make that happen. As Martin is very anal about bloodlines and physical attributes being passed along those bloodlines having Jon be a real Targaryen while carrying none of the physical markers possessed by EVERY other Targaryen would be a Deus Ex Machina moment.

If Jon is really the son of Lyanna, I tend to believe that Robert was his father, not Rhaegar. Robert loved her, wanted her and slept with anything with a pulse. He's got the right physical appearance to be Robert's son, he's still Ned's blood which would make Ned want to protect him and Ned's honor would want him to uphold the honor of his sister for having a rugrat out of wedlock. There's at least as much evidence to point to Robert as to Rhaegar and that's assuming that Lyanna is the mother. There's no guarantee that it's her.
 
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blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
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These are BOOK SPOILERS so please don't read unless you have read at least the first three books.


1) Like the coloring in the house of Baratheon ("the seed is strong") the same holds true for house Targaryen. They're marked by silvery hair and purple eyes, Jon has neither feature. Even the Targaryren bastards had as least one of the physical aspects, many had both. 2) Ned might have sacrificed his own honor for the greater good, but I don't think he would have sacrificed Catelyn's with a lie like that.
1. Silver hair and violet eyes don't seem to be dominant traits. Robert Baratheon's grandmother was Targaryen, and he didn't have any of those traits. The Martells joined the Seven Kingdoms through marriage, and probably married more Targaryens than any other house, but none of the Targaryen traits can be seen in any current Martell. It's the most popular theory as to who Jon's parents are. 3. Catelyn's honor wasn't sacrificed. She did nothing wrong. Only her stuck up pride was hurt since Ned brought a bastard home.

Another indicator that Lyanna's genes that would govern the appearance of her possible offspring are rather dominant is that Ned Stark's children with Caelyn's look as much like her as they do him. Except one, Arya, who takes after Lyanna's appearance as John Snow does. Interesting that Jon looks like Lyanna if she isn't his mother.

There is also an instance in the book were Catelyn recalls a confrontation over John Snow staying at Winterfell that came about because servants were talking about the rumors of who his mother was. Ned Stark told her never to ask him about John's parentage and Catelyn never overheard any talk of John from Winterfell's servants again.


Additionally, I read an article which details meeting where George R.R. Martin ask the show producers a particular question about a certain mysterious lineage
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/10/arts/television/game-of-thrones-on-hbo-from-george-r-r-martin-novels.html?_r=3&pagewanted=1&src=twr
The first was winning over Mr. Martin in a lunchtime meeting that was mostly collegial, but where Mr. Weiss and Mr. Benioff were quizzed about the parents of Jon Snow, a “Game of Thrones” character of mysterious lineage. (“We had a whole conversation about it,” Mr. Benioff said, “and George was pleased that we got the answer right.”)
Considering that interview it's interesting that in an early episode when Jon last speaks with Ned he is told "You are of my blood, when next we meet we'll speak of your mother."

Interesting that a character who's reputation is that of honor and honesty uses words that could be interpreted in more than one way and still be truthful.

In another scene on the road to King's Landing Ned and King Robert have a conversation and King Robert asks "and yours was... your bastards mother?" and Ned looks away before answering "Wylla."

Now it could be because Ned is ashamed to have been unfaithful or it could be because King Robert is the one Ned Stark would be protecting Jon from if he is Lyanna's son and Robert is not the father because King Robert has a hatred of Targaryans that can not be reasoned with. Additionally Tywin Lannister's men slaughtered women and children from the Targaryan line and weren't punished much if at all for that.

Additionally GagHalfrunt you should read this link.


A couple of posters in a forum dedicated to the books contradict your assertion.

If Jon is really the son of Lyanna then he's half Targaryen, not 1/4 or less like Robert. All the half-blood Targaryen's have either silver hair, purple eyes or both
Additionally Lyanna didn't really love King Robert much

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some young girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”

There are other hints throughout the series that Lyanna actually loved another and that the feeling was mutual.

Ned remembers this when he is in jail.
Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, as blue as frost.

Other characters recount more details to Bran but doesn't refer anyone by name but the references are rather easy as he uses the words
dragon and wolf. “The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head.”

“And the mystery knight should defeat all challengers and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty.”
“She was,” said Meera. “But that’s a sadder story.”

You can read a more detailed essay about the subject here
http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jon.html


It goes on to detail more about how Ned remembered that Lyanna was deathly afraid until Ned made a promise to her. If the promise was only to return her bones to Winterfell then why would keeping that promise weigh so much on him so many years later as he recalls it.

“I will,” Ned promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he made to Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.

The fact that the producers spoke about this subject with George R.R. Martin after he asked them specifically about it (perhaps wanting to see if they really read the books)

And that they also put what could be interpreted as subtle hints about the subject in early episodes.

Is compelling evidence of the hypothesis Bladevenom notes is the most popular amongst fans. Especially since there have been those of half blood without the features of a certain house.

*edit*
I tend to believe that Robert was his father, not Rhaegar. Robert loved her, wanted her and slept with anything with a pulse. He's got the right physical appearance to be Robert's son, he's still Ned's blood which would make Ned want to protect him and Ned's honor would want him to uphold the honor of his sister for having a rugrat out of wedlock.
If Robert was the father then Lyanna would have no fear for Jon's life if she is his mother.

King it is noted in book three can make a bastard legitimate and if he was Jon's father via Lyanna there it seems that he would want to do that. After all Jon would be the link to Lyanna left to him.

Given all the other hints this seems very unlikely as there would be no reason for Ned to promise to claim Jon as his own bastard if Robert was the father
 
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blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
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I've only read one book and it doesn't give much more than the TV show. I had that suspicion without the book.
One book is enough to raise suspicious. Many people miss it on the first read (including me) so you were particularly observant.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,301
1,990
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Is compelling evidence of the hypothesis Bladevenom notes is the most popular amongst fans. Especially since there have been those of half blood without the features of a certain house.
No, there have not been half-blood Targaryens without the house features, there are only internet idiots who think there are. The two most commonly cited are Rhaenys and Aegor "Bittersteel" Rivers. While Rhaenys is mentioned as having Dornish coloring her hair is Targaryen silver and Bittersteel wound up with dark hair, but got the purple eyes. There are no legitimately half-blooded Targaryen kin without either the hair or the eyes. Jon would be the only one.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,398
377
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No, there have not been half-blood Targaryens without the house features, there are only internet idiots who think there are.

In any case there is much more support for the hypothesis than there is against it... regardless of whether your opinion is true. Has any Targaryen half-breed known been partly of Northern Stock?

If that is not the case and it doesn't seem to be from the family tree I've seen, who's to say that something in Lyanna's genotype wouldn't overwrite those features if she did have a child by Rhaegar.

Given the conversation that the producer's had with George R.R. Martin and what was said then the two relevant scenes in the first few episode, it isn't outside the realm of possibility
 
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BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,541
16
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No, there have not been half-blood Targaryens without the house features, there are only internet idiots who think there are. The two most commonly cited are Rhaenys and Aegor "Bittersteel" Rivers. While Rhaenys is mentioned as having Dornish coloring her hair is Targaryen silver and Bittersteel wound up with dark hair, but got the purple eyes. There are no legitimately half-blooded Targaryen kin without either the hair or the eyes. Jon would be the only one.
Steffon Baratheon was half Targaryen and didn't look Targaryen. In the show, Danny's child in the house of the undying had dark hair.

Where did it say Rhaenys' hair was silver?
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,198
166
106
Jon Snow may well end up being something surprisingly different. But I sincerely doubt it. And if the only evidence we supposedly have that its impossible is that he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes I don't consider that a refutation at all. Even if the Targaryen traits were always dominant in all known cases (which they aren't as others have pointed out) there's a first time for everything. Two black people gave birth to a white kid in Africa recently, I'm pretty sure in the land of magic and dragons a blond haired guy can have a dark haired child.

It would be pretty lacking in subtly if Jon Snow had silver hair and purple eyes don't you think? The story would certainly need to be rearranged to account for it.
 

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