Future problem in the country

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Geekbabe

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 16, 1999
32,229
2,539
126
www.theshoppinqueen.com
Originally posted by: MagicSac
Originally posted by: Geekbabe
"The poor will always be with us"

Since the day when we began assembling in groups there have always been people with higher and lesser degree's of ability. What sets us apart from animals is compassion, the understanding that the way we treat those less well equipped than ourselves says more about as people than anything we could ever build or invent.

True, but how do you regulate compassion? Having the government do this is hardly the answer. I agree that there should be a basic framework of support for people if they come upon hard times, but i'm very much against the idea that many in the less fortunate communities believe it's their right to have other people supporting them and their children.

Personally, i much prefer people helping the poor through charities or churches of THEIR choice rather than letting the government take money via taxes and redistribute it as it sees fit. But if you trust the government, then by all means go ahead and pay more taxes (nothing is stopping you from sending in more money come tax time)... just don't force the rest of us to.



Here's the thing about though... if you wish to dismantle social support programs, then in the interest of fairness you've got to gut
them all.. no more Head Start? great, we'll also be eliminating college grants and low interest govnment backed student loans.
No more public housing or Sec 8 housing vouchers? fine, we'll also do away with tax deductions for home mortgages.

If we're to cut people loose in a sink or swim system, we've got to cut EVERYBODY loose.

 

jersiq

Senior member
May 18, 2005
887
1
0
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: her209
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
That was never disproven. A link was shown that poor household have less people in them, but that's not taking into account the fact that poorer families are more fragmented and dispersed between households.
Where's the proof for this statement?

Here's an example:

http://www.rikidscount.org/mat...ok%20Indicator%202.pdf

It's specifically about Rhode Island but with such a lopsided figure it's extremely unlikely that the opposite would be true in any state.

"In 2006 in Rhode Island, 82% of children living in poverty were living in single-parent families. Children in single-parent families in Rhode Island were almost nine times more likely to be living in poverty than those in married-couple families. In 2006, 35% of children in single-parent households lived in poverty, compared to 4% of children in married-couple households"

We've established that:

Poorer families are more likely to be single-parent- In 2006 in Rhode Island, 82% of children living in poverty were living in single-parent families

You extrapolated data from a State that has 1M people to a country that has 300 Million people.
Source
That's quite the leap to prove your assertion.
 

Scarpozzi

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
26,391
1,780
126
Don't worry. History shows that when we get too many dummies, someone who lusts for power and land starts a war and those without formal educations end up going to the front lines.

I'm sure once the illegal immigrants in this country (from multiple countries) have kids and they get SSNs, they'll eventually be drafted for some crusade for oil or a new military base in some country that I never care to set foot in.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
5,957
7
81
Originally posted by: Leros
Its a tricky situation. Like you said, a fast growing population of lower class people is going to cause some problems. I don't see much else you can do while still treating them like people though.

The situation will balance itself out somehow. Absolute worst case: the country will collapse upon itself, there won't be enough food to go around, and the poor will die from starvation. Balanced.

Or we segregate into classes and develop our own "3rd world" within this nation.
And just like say...India, you'll have the select few rich overlords, and everyone else is working their butts off for a substandard quality of life.

People are fooling themselves if they deny that more undesirable traits are present in poor communities than in rich communities, helping contribute to the fact that the rich get richer while the poor get poorer.

Nuture over nature, buddy. Unless you think Paris Hilton and ilk are examples of high quality specimens.
The difference in natural ability between the successful and unsuccessful is not so great that someone's genetics doom them to where they are. In fact, I'd say the benefits of a proper education and upbringing easily eclipse most any benefit bestowed by genetics.

In fact, I see native born Americans as a wonderful and woefully underutilized resource. Why is there such a big hangup over the nuclear family? Start up institutions, sorts of universities for young children. Make enrollment in these institutions voluntary, but appeal to families who cannot afford to keep children. These children can then be educated, at a fairly reasonable cost, as a single employee can be assigned to a large group of children, and many employees can share the burden of education in the arts and sciences. As well, develop a community among the children, so as they grow older they can offer guidance to their younger colleagues. Make them well rounded citizens, and offer multiple tracks so they can learn skills of interest and use.
And at the end, mandatory 2-4 years of (paid) government service wouldn't be uncalled for. Not necessarily military, if these children are as bright as the organization should be capable of producing, there are many tracks in government, even in sciences, law, art, etc, that they could join. Ergo, it's the new communism. Government money raises the children, so why shouldn't the government decided how the children are raised?

Were we to let evolution take it's natural course, there would be no welfare of any kind and those poor who couldn't feed their 7 ill-behaved bastards would die of starvation and evolutionary balance would be maintained. Instead it's just as several people in this thread have described. The productive* members of society will slowly become the minority until society collapses on itself. I just hope I'm not around to say "I told you so."

Society and the works of man are far greater than anything that could be hoped to be achieved by evolution. At least over any time frame we're concerned with.
If there are poor, unproductive members of society, the solution is not to let them die, it's to raise and nurture them into being useful.





BTW, I'm not being serious with my arguments here, if anyone was wondering.
 

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,036
21
81
Originally posted by: sao123
Originally posted by: CottonRabbit
Originally posted by: sao123
Originally posted by: SagaLore
Originally posted by: IGBT
..historically correct for a post depression manufacturing society. But manuf. in the US is rapidly becoming extinct. Present educational system has failed to turn out educated technically skilled employable workers. Employers are forced to import technically skilled workers or off shore their work. The US will be a service economy very soon. The only skill required will be to match the picture on the menu with the appropriate key on the cash register. The tax payer shouldn't be required to finance failed public school education.

:confused:

Where is it you live that you think our public school system is that bad?

Around here, those people pushing register buttons are south american immigrants or high schools kids. College kids are busy doing internships in offices, schools, or labs.

The problem is...IGBT is right...
Therein Lies the problem... we are turning out too many college kids... in order to economically survive, we NEED some lesser or unschooled cheap labor to work in our factories... thats why our manufacturing industries keep going overseas... american labor is too expensive right now... the entire workforce cant be upper class...

Soon we will be a service / information only economy which will collapse under its own weight.


What you fail to understand is the following: Economics is a zero sum game...
when you remove all of those manufacturing jobs, then all you have left is the middle and upper class... and guess what? Your middle class becomes your low class again... and now they are unemployed because they have priced themselves out of the workforce. Afterrall SOMEONE has to be at the bottom!... It isnt how much you make that defines your wealth status... its [how many people that you make more than] that defines it.

so would you rather a)have college educated people who cant get a paying job, living off government subsidies...

or would you rather have low wage manufactuing jobs available to those people so they can actually supoprt themselves.

Ah okay, now I see what IGBT was saying. I don't agree. We have a very technically skilled labor workforce. Up in Pennsylvania there were a lot of vocational schools at the high school level, and technical schools at the college level. They become masters of their trade. I especially disagree with you. There is no reason why our citizens can't be all middle and upper class. It is a world economy now. Yea, any services we need performed here like auto mechanics, plumbing, etc. have gotten expensive. But they're being performed by those guys that IGBT says don't exist, and I think they earn it. Plus being mostly middle and upper class, we can afford it. Our economy works on capitalism, which works on supply and demand. That determines our workforce. We would not be where we are now if it were not possible, effective, or efficient.
 

AgaBoogaBoo

Lifer
Feb 16, 2003
26,108
5
81
Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Here's the thing about though... if you wish to dismantle social support programs, then in the interest of fairness you've got to gut
them all.. no more Head Start? great, we'll also be eliminating college grants and low interest govnment backed student loans.
No more public housing or Sec 8 housing vouchers? fine, we'll also do away with tax deductions for home mortgages.

If we're to cut people loose in a sink or swim system, we've got to cut EVERYBODY loose.

One thing at a time:

college grants + subsidized student loans

Why get rid of those? We *want* people to be educated and as productive as possible.

No more public housing or Sec 8 housing vouchers?

If people are working, and subsidizing their housing will give them a chance to breathe, what's wrong with it?

The point isn't to make everyone's life a living hell, but rather to increase productivity of people and make them more aware of their decisions. If people are working to better themselves and are making logical choices, then they should be supported.

tax deductions for home mortgages

Again, it's in the interest of the economy for them to provide tax benefits for having a mortgage. Overall, it's beneficial, and it supports the people who own their own property.

If we're to cut people loose in a sink or swim system, we've got to cut EVERYBODY loose.

Why?
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
where is the proof that:

poor people 'breed' more than the rich

working poor people on government subsidy are not net positive contributors to society

that these mythological welfare breeders actually exist in any significant quantity to be an actually discernible burden on the rest of society

that intelligence is a strictly inherited trait

these are of course the factual arguments behind the op's ideas, and for now i'll skip any logical or 'emotional' or other arguments


first lets take a look at the assumption that working poor how are on welfare or other assistance are a net drain on society. I'm going to have to do a bit of basic micro-economics hear so bear with me.

Lets assume that a given firm operates in a competitive market for labor and its production, and has a fixed amount of capital in the short term. In such a market, the price for labor is constant, and for the hell of it we'll say that the going price for an hour of labor is 30 of a arbitrary currency. The marginal productivity of labor in our arbitrary currency in this scenario is given by the equation (60 - (x/5)) = mp. A competitive firm will choice an amount of labor that maximizes its profits where the price of labor is equal to the marginal productivity of labor, or 30 = ((60-(x/5)). Solving for x, we get 150 units of labor.

our 150 laborers in the scenario earn 30, and in this area this is a poverty wage and each worker receives government assistance of 10, an extra burden of 1500 on the wealth in this society who pay more taxes. Our OP who owns the factory and pays the tax that goes to his workers is pissed, because these people are 'leaching' from society in his narrow view. however, a quick integration reveals that he earns a producer surplus of 2250, after his taxes, his workers have produced 6750 worth of goods and only been compensated 6000 for their production, and the OP has earned 750, making our welfare sucking poor people a net producer for society.


well with that exercise done, its been well documented that intelligence is heavily dependent on ones environment, including pre-natal and post-natal health. Diet of course is one problem, and since poor people are likely to have substandard diets they are also more likely to see developmental problems. Furthermore, diseases can have a profound effect on ones intelligence, for instance the scars of malaria are the primary inhibitor of the development of africa and responsible for a very overall decline in the average IQ of subsaharan africans, which in tern is further compounded by diet. As opposed to what the op suggests, africans are not 'dumb' because of anything genetic.

the idea that poor people are more likely to breed is difficult to prove, most people have children during their childbearing years, and during this period they are also typically at the bottom of the career ladder and pay-scale. The odds of a household being in poverty increase with the number of children, and more children means less time for work.

finally, i have never seen an actually documented number of 'welfare queens', and furthermore they are limited to only 6 years of welfare, so the entire argument is bogus
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo
ing logical choices, then they should be supported.

tax deductions for home mortgages

Again, it's in the interest of the economy for them to provide tax benefits for having a mortgage. Overall, it's beneficial, and it supports the people who own their own property.

i've had peopel try to tell me that car crashes are good for the economy because they keep autoshops in business.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,967
140
106
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
where is the proof that:

poor people 'breed' more than the rich

working poor people on government subsidy are not net positive contributors to society

that these mythological welfare breeders actually exist in any significant quantity to be an actually discernible burden on the rest of society

that intelligence is a strictly inherited trait

these are of course the factual arguments behind the op's ideas, and for now i'll skip any logical or 'emotional' or other arguments


first lets take a look at the assumption that working poor how are on welfare or other assistance are a net drain on society. I'm going to have to do a bit of basic micro-economics hear so bear with me.

Lets assume that a given firm operates in a competitive market for labor and its production, and has a fixed amount of capital in the short term. In such a market, the price for labor is constant, and for the hell of it we'll say that the going price for an hour of labor is 30 of a arbitrary currency. The marginal productivity of labor in our arbitrary currency in this scenario is given by the equation (60 - (x/5)) = mp. A competitive firm will choice an amount of labor that maximizes its profits where the price of labor is equal to the marginal productivity of labor, or 30 = ((60-(x/5)). Solving for x, we get 150 units of labor.

our 150 laborers in the scenario earn 30, and in this area this is a poverty wage and each worker receives government assistance of 10, an extra burden of 1500 on the wealth in this society who pay more taxes. Our OP who owns the factory and pays the tax that goes to his workers is pissed, because these people are 'leaching' from society in his narrow view. however, a quick integration reveals that he earns a producer surplus of 2250, after his taxes, his workers have produced 6750 worth of goods and only been compensated 6000 for their production, and the OP has earned 750, making our welfare sucking poor people a net producer for society.


well with that exercise done, its been well documented that intelligence is heavily dependent on ones environment, including pre-natal and post-natal health. Diet of course is one problem, and since poor people are likely to have substandard diets they are also more likely to see developmental problems. Furthermore, diseases can have a profound effect on ones intelligence, for instance the scars of malaria are the primary inhibitor of the development of africa and responsible for a very overall decline in the average IQ of subsaharan africans, which in tern is further compounded by diet. As opposed to what the op suggests, africans are not 'dumb' because of anything genetic.

the idea that poor people are more likely to breed is difficult to prove, most people have children during their childbearing years, and during this period they are also typically at the bottom of the career ladder and pay-scale. The odds of a household being in poverty increase with the number of children, and more children means less time for work.

finally, i have never seen an actually documented number of 'welfare queens', and furthermore they are limited to only 6 years of welfare, so the entire argument is bogus


..good. then a four year life time cap on ALL public assistance is in order. the tax payer shouldn't have to TEAT them any longer then that.
 

AgaBoogaBoo

Lifer
Feb 16, 2003
26,108
5
81
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo
ing logical choices, then they should be supported.

tax deductions for home mortgages

Again, it's in the interest of the economy for them to provide tax benefits for having a mortgage. Overall, it's beneficial, and it supports the people who own their own property.

i've had peopel try to tell me that car crashes are good for the economy because they keep autoshops in business.
How? By taking away money from insurance companies? They don't have a magical sack of cash or something...
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: IGBT
Originally posted by: miketheidiot

<finally, i have never seen an actually documented number of 'welfare queens', and furthermore they are limited to only 6 years of welfare, so the entire argument is bogus


..good. then a four year life time cap on ALL public assistance is in order. the tax payer shouldn't have to TEAT them any longer then that.

i think you need to do some more resaerch
 

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,036
21
81
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
where is the proof that:

poor people 'breed' more than the rich

Well, there is the census.

And then there were my ex in-laws.

And many of the families my mom was friends with when we lived in the city.

And all the kids and their siblings I knew that lived at trailer parks, compared to the kid(s) I knew from families of upper middle class.

And... come on, its called reality. Accept it.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: SagaLore
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
where is the proof that:

poor people 'breed' more than the rich

Well, there is the census.

And then there were my ex in-laws.

And many of the families my mom was friends with when we lived in the city.

And all the kids and their siblings I knew that lived at trailer parks, compared to the kid(s) I knew from families of upper middle class.

And... come on, its called reality. Accept it.

i already explained the bias in any census figures, i don't see this being logical or real and i definitely don't see it in my experience, so no, i am not going to just take your word for it and accept it.
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: jersiq

You extrapolated data from a State that has 1M people to a country that has 300 Million people.
Source
That's quite the leap to prove your assertion.

That was the only thing I can find. However, with the statistic that children in single parent families are almost 9x more likely to be poor in RI, it's *extremely* unlikely that you'll find any state where they're less likely to be poor than families with both parents.

If you can find a stat that states that, I'd like to see it.
 

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,036
21
81
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: SagaLore
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
where is the proof that:

poor people 'breed' more than the rich

Well, there is the census.

And then there were my ex in-laws.

And many of the families my mom was friends with when we lived in the city.

And all the kids and their siblings I knew that lived at trailer parks, compared to the kid(s) I knew from families of upper middle class.

And... come on, its called reality. Accept it.

i already explained the bias in any census figures, i don't see this being logical or real and i definitely don't see it in my experience, so no, i am not going to just take your word for it and accept it.

Exactly what is your experience? :confused:
 

IEC

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 10, 2004
14,597
6,076
136
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: sandorski
The OP is fail, lacks Intelligence, is clearly Inferior, and must be Poor. He'll likely deny all these points, but only because the Inferior Poor like to Lie about these things.

Another emotional ad hominem attack. Please attack the argument, not the person.

There's nothing left to attack of the argument.

As I posted before, both the major and minor premises of your argument were shot down.

When your premises are bad, your argument fails.
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
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Originally posted by: Spartan Niner
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: sandorski
The OP is fail, lacks Intelligence, is clearly Inferior, and must be Poor. He'll likely deny all these points, but only because the Inferior Poor like to Lie about these things.

Another emotional ad hominem attack. Please attack the argument, not the person.

There's nothing left to attack of the argument.

As I posted before, both the major and minor premises of your argument were shot down.

When your premises are bad, your argument fails.

My premises were not shot down. I was able to show proof of my claim, but since those who are arguing with me and have already made up their mind, there is no data or proof out there that is good enough to convince them.
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: jersiq
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: her209
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
That was never disproven. A link was shown that poor household have less people in them, but that's not taking into account the fact that poorer families are more fragmented and dispersed between households.
Where's the proof for this statement?

Here's an example:

http://www.rikidscount.org/mat...ok%20Indicator%202.pdf

It's specifically about Rhode Island but with such a lopsided figure it's extremely unlikely that the opposite would be true in any state.

"In 2006 in Rhode Island, 82% of children living in poverty were living in single-parent families. Children in single-parent families in Rhode Island were almost nine times more likely to be living in poverty than those in married-couple families. In 2006, 35% of children in single-parent households lived in poverty, compared to 4% of children in married-couple households"

We've established that:

Poorer families are more likely to be single-parent- In 2006 in Rhode Island, 82% of children living in poverty were living in single-parent families

You extrapolated data from a State that has 1M people to a country that has 300 Million people.
Source
That's quite the leap to prove your assertion.

Ok, how about this link?

http://family.jrank.org/pages/...arent-Family-Life.html
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: Fox5


Society and the works of man are far greater than anything that could be hoped to be achieved by evolution. At least over any time frame we're concerned with.
If there are poor, unproductive members of society, the solution is not to let them die, it's to raise and nurture them into being useful.

By doing that you're hurting the human race as a whole in the long term in order to appease a small group in the short term.

Sink or swim, but don't try to climb aboard my raft and act as dead weight while I paddle for shore.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
126
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: Fox5


Society and the works of man are far greater than anything that could be hoped to be achieved by evolution. At least over any time frame we're concerned with.
If there are poor, unproductive members of society, the solution is not to let them die, it's to raise and nurture them into being useful.

By doing that you're hurting the human race as a whole in the long term in order to appease a small group in the short term.

Sink or swim, but don't try to climb aboard my raft and act as dead weight while I paddle for shore.

Have proof or making more generalizations?
 
Nov 7, 2000
16,403
3
81
Originally posted by: cubeless
Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
reproductive freedom is a fundamental human right
obligatory financial support to people that make poor decisions is unjust

problem fixes itself if the second part is corrected

ain't heard about that china place, have ya... "fundamental human rights" are a political abstraction granted by whomever is in power...
you misunderstand
fundamental human rights are an absolute, and they exist whether or not society or government grants them.

these basic human rights have been suppressed in many ways by many different means, china is just a current example of flawed government . why do you think china is so criticized?

the us is not innocent either
 

meltdown75

Lifer
Nov 17, 2004
37,548
7
81
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: Fox5


Society and the works of man are far greater than anything that could be hoped to be achieved by evolution. At least over any time frame we're concerned with.
If there are poor, unproductive members of society, the solution is not to let them die, it's to raise and nurture them into being useful.

By doing that you're hurting the human race as a whole in the long term in order to appease a small group in the short term.

Sink or swim, but don't try to climb aboard my raft and act as dead weight while I paddle for shore.
I guess the whole "good samaritan" thing is lost on you then, eh? ;)
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: Fox5


Society and the works of man are far greater than anything that could be hoped to be achieved by evolution. At least over any time frame we're concerned with.
If there are poor, unproductive members of society, the solution is not to let them die, it's to raise and nurture them into being useful.

By doing that you're hurting the human race as a whole in the long term in order to appease a small group in the short term.

Sink or swim, but don't try to climb aboard my raft and act as dead weight while I paddle for shore.

Have proof or making more generalizations?

You seem to ask for proof for common sense ideas. If you stated that swallowing a Western Digital hard drive was bad for your health and I called BS and asked for proof, does that make your statement untrue if you're unable to find a link that directly states it?

People instinctively try to avoid mating with others with bad genes. Usually what people find attractive are indicators fo good genes, such as clean skin, symmetry of ones body, intelligence, etc. If someone came across someone who has really bad skin, obvious physical deformities, low intelligence, etc, they'd tend to think they're unhealthy and undesirable.

Modern society has deemed it politically correct to cover up those undesirable qualities and as a result more bad genes are making it into the gene pool.

We are doing ourselves a disservice in the long run by helping the weak survive. We're actively working against natural selection.
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot

you misunderstand
fundamental human rights are an absolute, and they exist whether or not society or government grants them.

How can it be a "right" if it isn't granted by someone? Otherwise it's just a physical ability but not a right.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
126
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: Fox5


Society and the works of man are far greater than anything that could be hoped to be achieved by evolution. At least over any time frame we're concerned with.
If there are poor, unproductive members of society, the solution is not to let them die, it's to raise and nurture them into being useful.

By doing that you're hurting the human race as a whole in the long term in order to appease a small group in the short term.

Sink or swim, but don't try to climb aboard my raft and act as dead weight while I paddle for shore.

Have proof or making more generalizations?

You seem to ask for proof for common sense ideas. If you stated that swallowing a Western Digital hard drive was bad for your health and I called BS and asked for proof, does that make your statement untrue if you're unable to find a link that directly states it?

People instinctively try to avoid mating with others with bad genes. Usually what people find attractive are indicators fo good genes, such as clean skin, symmetry of ones body, intelligence, etc. If someone came across someone who has really bad skin, obvious physical deformities, low intelligence, etc, they'd tend to think they're unhealthy and undesirable.

Modern society has deemed it politically correct to cover up those undesirable qualities and as a result more bad genes are making it into the gene pool.

We are doing ourselves a disservice in the long run by helping the weak survive. We're actively working against natural selection.

No, you're just making generalizations without any proof. Any high IQ individual that wanted to debate should be able to communicate the issue clearly, provide proof to back-up their claims and then provide a solution. You have done known of that.

So, are you against poor people in general which in your OP or just those that leech off the system?

You have no proof for any of your generalizations.

You have no solutions to your problem.