wheresmybacon
Diamond Member
I agree there. The addition of "most" and "probably" to your statement is what I thought you meant.
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Furor Over Baptist's 'Gay Baby' Article
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JeffreyLebowski
Lifer
My superior genes took care of that already 😉
IF it is really a biological condition why shouldn't it be fixed? Autism was recently found to be a genetic disorder, if you had a fetus that was found to have Autism and they could fix it, you sure as sh!t would fix it. I know I would fix my 5 year old if I could.
I'm not a religious person at all and view homosexuality as against nature as we are divided by gender and predominantly attracted to the opposite sex on a biological level because we are hard wired for procreation.
glutenberg
Golden Member
If race could be changed during the gestation period, would you do that for your children too? It's competitively easier to be born Caucasian in most of this world but are parents going to start choosing the race of their children? Since most of ATOT have a stronger affinity to the sciences, isn't most of evolution based on genetic "variations" that could have been just as easily determined to be not normal or an anomaly?
leftyman
Diamond Member
then you would say "No thank you Dr, I know it would be an simple procedure but I believe in genetic variations, so please keep my child gay."
also..
In several black cultures lighter skin is deemed more valuable so I would assume that in those cultures they might possible want that.
not to mention that the vast majority of parents are straight and would also want their children to be also.
glutenberg
Golden Member
I wouldn't doubt that for a second. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who have experienced enough racial inequality that being allowed to choose a race before birth would be at least considered (granted, they would not be born so it'd be up to the parents).
glutenberg
Golden Member
Certain animals are born albino which generally is a competitive disadvantage in their current environment but a season of heavy snow or a changing of the environment puts them at an advantage. Why be so quick in disregarding your genetic heritage which has evolved slowly through the ages to get where it's at currently?
Didn't thoroughly examine the article, but it sounds to me like this may be a Christian in support of advanced medical practices, and seeks to open a broader base of Christian support for these by choosing a controversial topic.
If tempting Christians with the gay cure leads to their mass support for stem cell research, I have no problem with the ruse.
If tempting Christians with the gay cure leads to their mass support for stem cell research, I have no problem with the ruse.
Amused
Elite Member
Anytime that happens just quote this one:
If only you would be altogether silent! For you, that would be wisdom.
Job 13:5
Another goodie:
Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish.
Proverbs 31:6
And for those little whippersnappers who piss you off:
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, and looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.
2 Kings 2:23-24
The bible has everything I tell ya! Everything! 😀
zinfamous
No Lifer
These days, several parents choose to screen for certain genetic disroders in their fetuses. We can test for Trisomy 21 (Down's), Trisomy 13 (very fatal), Fragile X (extremely deliterious in males), and a few others. Actually, the number of parents that opt to abort when their child tests positive for Down's has increased significantly over the last few years. I don't doubt that if a definitive marker for homosexuality is ever discovered, that parents will certainly consider their options.
Of course, talking about genetic cures right now is still science fiction. We're probably ~10 years from being able to "cure" any of these genetic defects. All we can do right now is screen, and make decisions on proceeding to term or not. I can understand why parents choose to abort when testing positive for Tris 13 or Fragile X, but gayness is a little extraordinary. (Although, I'm sure plenty of people would opt for that)
Of course, talking about genetic cures right now is still science fiction. We're probably ~10 years from being able to "cure" any of these genetic defects. All we can do right now is screen, and make decisions on proceeding to term or not. I can understand why parents choose to abort when testing positive for Tris 13 or Fragile X, but gayness is a little extraordinary. (Although, I'm sure plenty of people would opt for that)
angminas
Diamond Member
That section in Matthew does NOT mean the dietary laws are no longer in place. This is upheld in many places throughout the Bible. He even says specifically at the end of that quote that he's referring to eating with unwashed hands. I can link and talk about this for a long time for anyone who's interested.
It's difficult for us to know where our choices begin and end. When someone is severely abused as a child, their brains change, and they are exposed to negative behavior instead of positive behavior. This teaches them to behave negatively, and they usually don't even realize they're wrong for many years, if at all. How can one say that this person has complete control over their future? What about people born retarded? Everyone except the very most handicapped or insane have some level of control over their thoughts and actions, though, and that can be parleyed into greater control, if the person is willing to put forth effort toward getting better. It's like lifting weights.
Not everyone who FEELS AND THINKS in a homosexual way is doing so out of choice, but everyone (except crazy people, children, etc) who engages in homosexual ACTS has made a choice. There's a huge difference between wanting to do something and actually doing it (or nurturing and fantasizing about the idea). The vast majority of people who "discuss" this subject skip over this because either they're blinded or they like to ignore truth because it takes more work. You can't just say "homosexual" and "being homosexual" and be really telling the truth, because it's more complex than that. Simplify something enough and you change its nature.
Being homosexual isn't a sin when it's not chosen. A child who is born gay (if that's even possible, I don't know, though I know lots of people think they do) is not responsible for being gay. If nobody ever teaches him properly and he is never exposed to righteous behavior, how can he change? But if his behavior ends up harming people in a clear way he can understand and he keeps on doing it, then he is responsible, because he's choosing to take care of himself at the expense of others. And if God opens his heart to the truth (which can't be summed up in a few mushy paragraphs, the Bible is 1,000 pages for a reason) and he truly starts to understand what he's doing and doesn't change, then he is responsible.
I have a very bad temper because of things that happened when I was a child. My natural instinct is to lash out at the slightest disrespect, real or imagined. I am prideful and self-righteous, because I tend to figure, after all that's been done to me, I have a right to do whatever I want, and I'll still be right in the end. But I have seen and been told that there's a better way, so I have made great strides in controlling my anger. It was NOT EASY. I had to choose to be hurt rather than to hurt others, because I knew that I didn't have the strength and experience to handle many situations perfectly. I had to choose to let things go that I had thought for years were extremely important. I had to study and listen to people who knew more and acted better than I did. I am still working hard at it, and I have to remind myself every day that the anger isn't all gone, and I'm not where I need to be yet.
People can't just do whatever they want all the time. There are too many people around. Complete freedom is a myth, an illusion. When you push the boundaries of your freedom, you encroach on someone else's. There's no such thing as "just hurting yourself", because love means the other person hurts when you do, and everyone is loved by someone. Besides which, none of us really have the wisdom to live right, and those that say they do are the furthest from the truth.
There are not 800 ways of being Christian. Christianity means you do what Jesus would do. The Bible is crystal clear about this. You can't do something he disapproves of and call it Christianity. Jesus forgives sins, but he expects people to change. If you continue in sin after you know it's wrong...well...that's bad.
Gotta go to work, no time to write more.
It's difficult for us to know where our choices begin and end. When someone is severely abused as a child, their brains change, and they are exposed to negative behavior instead of positive behavior. This teaches them to behave negatively, and they usually don't even realize they're wrong for many years, if at all. How can one say that this person has complete control over their future? What about people born retarded? Everyone except the very most handicapped or insane have some level of control over their thoughts and actions, though, and that can be parleyed into greater control, if the person is willing to put forth effort toward getting better. It's like lifting weights.
Not everyone who FEELS AND THINKS in a homosexual way is doing so out of choice, but everyone (except crazy people, children, etc) who engages in homosexual ACTS has made a choice. There's a huge difference between wanting to do something and actually doing it (or nurturing and fantasizing about the idea). The vast majority of people who "discuss" this subject skip over this because either they're blinded or they like to ignore truth because it takes more work. You can't just say "homosexual" and "being homosexual" and be really telling the truth, because it's more complex than that. Simplify something enough and you change its nature.
Being homosexual isn't a sin when it's not chosen. A child who is born gay (if that's even possible, I don't know, though I know lots of people think they do) is not responsible for being gay. If nobody ever teaches him properly and he is never exposed to righteous behavior, how can he change? But if his behavior ends up harming people in a clear way he can understand and he keeps on doing it, then he is responsible, because he's choosing to take care of himself at the expense of others. And if God opens his heart to the truth (which can't be summed up in a few mushy paragraphs, the Bible is 1,000 pages for a reason) and he truly starts to understand what he's doing and doesn't change, then he is responsible.
I have a very bad temper because of things that happened when I was a child. My natural instinct is to lash out at the slightest disrespect, real or imagined. I am prideful and self-righteous, because I tend to figure, after all that's been done to me, I have a right to do whatever I want, and I'll still be right in the end. But I have seen and been told that there's a better way, so I have made great strides in controlling my anger. It was NOT EASY. I had to choose to be hurt rather than to hurt others, because I knew that I didn't have the strength and experience to handle many situations perfectly. I had to choose to let things go that I had thought for years were extremely important. I had to study and listen to people who knew more and acted better than I did. I am still working hard at it, and I have to remind myself every day that the anger isn't all gone, and I'm not where I need to be yet.
People can't just do whatever they want all the time. There are too many people around. Complete freedom is a myth, an illusion. When you push the boundaries of your freedom, you encroach on someone else's. There's no such thing as "just hurting yourself", because love means the other person hurts when you do, and everyone is loved by someone. Besides which, none of us really have the wisdom to live right, and those that say they do are the furthest from the truth.
There are not 800 ways of being Christian. Christianity means you do what Jesus would do. The Bible is crystal clear about this. You can't do something he disapproves of and call it Christianity. Jesus forgives sins, but he expects people to change. If you continue in sin after you know it's wrong...well...that's bad.
Gotta go to work, no time to write more.
glutenberg
Golden Member
Evolving doesn't always equate to a positive outcome. Your point was that homosexuality is not evolution because of their inability to reproduce, thus it should be treated as a defect. My point was that evolution doesn't always mean a positive outcome but is evolution nevertheless. I'm pretty sure we're just arguing about nothing at this point.
blackllotus
Golden Member
I don't see how people can continue to claim that homosexuality in a choice. IIRC, studies have shown that gay men have responses to male pheromones similar to those of women. That alone shows that it is not merely a choice. Whats unclear is whether or not it is genetic. I personally suspect that it is not genetic because, in that case, it would have to be a mutation (homosexuality genes can't get passed on) and it occurs at a very high rate for a mutation.
OutHouse
Lifer
again, tell me where Jesus said being gay is a sin. SHOW ME!!!!
i dont understand your line of thinking. you said that being born gay (if its possible) is not a sin, but living gay is. hummm. so a person who is born gay its ok just as long as they dont do anything with the same sex. that pretty f*cked up man. how would you like it that since you were born Hetrosexual and you are very much attracted to women but you cant be with a woman because to do so is a sin, you have to be with men.
Yes people are born gay, and i mean true homosexuals not the people who claim to be BIsexual and are just satisfying their couriosity.
shortylickens
No Lifer
Gay people suck!
😛
(I love joining the hate and discontent.)
😛
(I love joining the hate and discontent.)
there is ample evidence that the genes coding for homosexuality in males also tend to confer greater fertility in women. Women with gay male relatives - uncles, etc. - have more babies than women with no gay men in the family. Thus genes coding for homosexuality in men can remain in circulation because they provides some evolutionary advantage (i.e., greater fertility leading to higher reproductive success) under some circumstances (e.g., when they are expressed in women).
there are plenty of other bits and pieces of evidence which indicate that homosexuality provides a competitive reproductive advantage to families under certain circumstances.
history's greatest sculptor (Michaelangelo) and painter/ inventor (Leonardo da Vinci) were homosexual men. History's greatest writer (Shakespeare) appears to have been bisexual. Do you think Michaelangelo and Da Vinci would have devoted a lifetime to the study of the male form - allowing the creation of 'David' or da Vinci's masterful drawings of the human body - if they had been heterosexual? What would have happened if their parents had pumped them full of testosterone when they were still in the womb? (assuming the technology had been available) Would they have even wanted to pick up a paint brush in the first place?
Not all gay people are artists or painters, but gay people do bring a unique set of attributes, abilities to the table and it is really quite sad that many people don't see or choose to acknowledge the way they have benefited from the presence of gay people among us.
Jeff7
Lifer
It's like wandering over to a hamster cage with a dozen of them in, and dropping one peanut.
"Yes, that's right. Dance my little ones, dance."
Similarly, wander into a thread on a touchy subject, say something that's sure flamebait, and do the same thing.
:laugh:
And suddenly it comes to mind, the scene in Family Guy where Peter is meeting with Lois' father.
"Eat this pine cone."
"Why?"
"It will amuse me."
Or maybe Da Vinci would have perfected his flying machines. Maybe the curvy female form would have given him the idea of putting a curve into the machine's wings, thereby accidentally giving it an airfoil. Maybe if Hitler was gay, he would have become a painter instead, and only painted the horrible things he envisioned.
It's an old philosophical issue - what if someone hadn't been born or had been born differently? Maybe the world would be worse, maybe better, maybe the same. What's done is done, and the only way to know what would have happened would be to use an impossibly powerful computer to create a simulation, or else go back in time and tinker with the timeline, which is also either impossible or unsafe.
There was just a Star Trek episode on today about this - Geordi's VISOR gave someone the idea to pulse power to the tractor beam to avert a disaster that would have destroyed a colony of genetically "perfect" humans. So a genetic imperfection - Geordi's blindness - led to their salvation. But the thing is, if he wasn't there, people wouldn't be thinking, "You know what we need? A genetically defective person who happens to wear useful technology. That's who we really need right now. Oh well."
Or Stephen Hawking. If he had never come to be in his present state of health, would he have ever done the things he has? Maybe with a normal body, he would have been more distracted by everyday life, and less able to focus on theoretical physics. Or perhaps with greater mobility, he would have been able to write more books and do more calculations on a chalkboard somewhere to find the Grand Unified Theory. Who knows. The fact is, he's here now, and we can't go back and find out what would have been.
IAteYourMother
Lifer
no, it's not evolution. Evolution is firmly rooted in passing your genetic material to the next generation. It's a defect.
IAteYourMother
Lifer
yes, but it if it was evolution, then it would have to be so that gay/lesbian influences make pregnant women tend to give birth to gay children more often.
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