Fox News basic math via their graphics

[HomerJS]

Nope...completely different mechanisms. What else do you think was directly lifted from the Heritage plan? And why is it important to you that Obamacare was based on the Heritage plan when it clearly was not? I don't get this. Can a liberal here that's reasonably objective please explain this to me?

What do you mean mechanisms?

Coming from Heritage was never the issue.

The point is any idea is rejected as long as Obama is for it.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

What do you mean mechanisms?

Coming from Heritage was never the issue.

The point is any idea is rejected as long as Obama is for it.

Ah...now we're getting somewhere. You don't grasp the vast differences in the opposing plans...you actually believe they're effectively the same thing in spite of the huge differences that are obvious to relatively rational folks.

Apparently you don't realize that the majority of Republicans rejected the Heritage plan as well.

 

[dank69]

No.

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2013/12/the-aca-v-the-heritage-plan-a-comparison-in-chart-form

I'm struggling to find the link I'm really looking for, but if you sit down and read Chaffee bill and PPACA, both what you are required to carry and the enforcement mechanism are different.

DSF posted the link of them explaining how the mandate was "different" and I laughed at how absurd the explanation was back in posts 208 & 9. One is a tex penalty and the other is a tax break. Either way, you pay less tax if you carry health insurance. TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

 

[dank69]

Ah...now we're getting somewhere. You don't grasp the vast differences in the opposing plans...you actually believe they're effectively the same thing in spite of the huge differences that are obvious to relatively rational folks.

Apparently you don't realize that the majority of Republicans rejected the Heritage plan as well.

Yes, in your "rational" world "opposition from more hard-line members of the Republican coalition" becomes "majority of Republicans rejected the Heritage plan as well."

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Yes, in your "rational" world "opposition from more hard-line members of the Republican coalition" becomes "majority of Republicans rejected the Heritage plan as well."

The majority of Republicans did not support the Heritage plan...yes or no? Is this somehow difficult for you to understand? Democratic House leadership also rejected the Heritage plan as well and wouldn't allow a vote on it. Are they "hard-line members" as well in your "rational world"?

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Did you read the part from politifact's analysis?



These are major differences between the bills. Your position seems to be that Motorweek and Top Gear are the same because they're both shows about cars.

Here you go, don't say I haven't done everything possible to educate you on this. This is a comparision of the ACA and the then-GOP proposal from 1993.

It's got a chart and everything to make it easy for y'all to compare even.

Link

Pro Tip: If you look at the "Senate bill 2009" and the "Chafee Bill 1993", you will find a whole lot of "yes's" in each column. Imagine that, huh?

Sure looks reallllllllllly similar to me. But I don't have rose-colored faux news goggles on, so maybe it reads different to you.

 

[dank69]

The majority of Republicans did not support the Heritage plan...yes or no? Is this somehow difficult for you to understand? Democratic House leadership also rejected the Heritage plan and wouldn't allow a vote on it either. Are they "hard-line members" as well in your "rational world"?

I cannot find statistics on how many Republicans were for and against it. All I can find is a statement that it never even got introduced on the floor presumably because Republicans couldn't agree on any plan to fix healthcare preferring instead to just attack the Clinton(?) plan.

Regardless, you are losing sight of the whole reason we are even talking about this shit. The point was that today's Dems are significantly to the right of Dems even in the 90s. The evidence is that today's Dems based their healthcare reform on a GOP plan. You cannot refute that evidence. The best you can do is knock down the strawman that the plans are not identical.

 

[TerryMathews]

What do you mean mechanisms?

Coming from Heritage was never the issue.

The point is any idea is rejected as long as Obama is for it.

So, to you the intermediate steps don't matter as long as the end result is the same.

This really helps me understand the liberal brain defect thanks!

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

I cannot find statistics on how many Republicans were for and against it. All I can find is a statement that it never even got introduced on the floor presumably because Republicans couldn't agree on any plan to fix healthcare preferring instead to just attack the Clinton(?) plan.

Regardless, you are losing sight of the whole reason we are even talking about this shit. The point was that today's Dems are significantly to the right of Dems even in the 90s. The evidence is that today's Dems based their healthcare reform on a GOP plan. You cannot refute that evidence. The best you can do is knock down the strawman that the plans are not identical.

LOL...the only reason we are talking about this is because matt1970 and DSF are in an alternate reality and believe the democrats have moved to the left recently. I used the ACA as evidence (along with several other obvious examples, which of course were ignored by them) showing that the Democrats have moved to the right, and their heads exploded and they refuse to believe it. So this nitpicking over the ACA is their only way to try and deflect from their ignorance about this rightward shift.

Apparently to them, all Democrats are far-left liberals, moving farther to the left every day, while the GOP are center right....hahahahahahahaha.

You, me, and the rest of the world realize that both parties have moved to the right in the past 20 or so years, and now the GOP occupies the "so far right they are falling over" section, also known as the bat-shit insane section.

 

[TerryMathews]

DSF posted the link of them explaining how the mandate was "different" and I laughed at how absurd the explanation was back in posts 208 & 9. One is a tex penalty and the other is a tax break. Either way, you pay less tax if you carry health insurance. TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

There are a number of distinct differences between a tax credit and a tax penalty, especially if the credit is non-refundable as I believe the Chaffee proposal was.

Look at the Mortgage Interest Credit vs the EITC, especially the suspected amount of fraud and the claim rate.

So yes, TOTALLY DIFFERENT!!! 1!.

Or do you not understand that the IRS can get a lien placed against you for failing to pay a penalty, vs no effect for failing to comply with the terms of a credit.

I would also suggest to you that tax credits to encourage behavior vs penalties to enforce it is a more Republican line of thinking.

 

[TerryMathews]

Yes, in your "rational" world "opposition from more hard-line members of the Republican coalition" becomes "majority of Republicans rejected the Heritage plan as well."

Was the Chaffee bill brought to a vote? I think we both know the answer.

 

[dank69]

There are a number of distinct differences between a tax credit and a tax penalty, especially if the credit is non-refundable as I believe the Chaffee proposal was.

Look at the Mortgage Interest Credit vs the EITC, especially the suspected amount of fraud and the claim rate.

So yes, TOTALLY DIFFERENT!!! 1!.

Or do you not understand that the IRS can get a lien placed against you for failing to pay a penalty, vs no effect for failing to comply with the terms of a credit.

I know you know that the IRS has no authority to go after anyone who doesn't pay the tax penalty for not meeting ACA requirements because we've had this discussion before.

I would also suggest to you that tax credits to encourage behavior vs penalties to enforce it is a more Republican line of thinking.

Of course you do because you are an intellectually dishonest piece of shit.

 

[TerryMathews]

Look. You guys obviously like your health care reform. Why don't you keep it and stop trying to blame us for it?

 

[dank69]

Look. You guys obviously like your health care reform. Why don't you keep it and stop trying to blame us for it?

Does this mean you admit you are unable to rebutt the fact that today's Dems are significantly to the right of Dems in the 90s?

 

[dank69]

Was the Chaffee bill brought to a vote? I think we both know the answer.

It was never even introduced as a bill. That in no way proves how many supported or opposed it. I think we both know this.

 

[TerryMathews]

Here you go, don't say I haven't done everything possible to educate you on this. This is a comparision of the ACA and the then-GOP proposal from 1993.

It's got a chart and everything to make it easy for y'all to compare even.

Link

Pro Tip: If you look at the "Senate bill 2009" and the "Chafee Bill 1993", you will find a whole lot of "yes's" in each column. Imagine that, huh?

Sure looks reallllllllllly similar to me. But I don't have rose-colored faux news goggles on, so maybe it reads different to you.

Your own link notes differences on 7 of 16 comparison items. I guess 56% is really similar to you?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Iegardless, you are losing sight of the whole reason we are even talking about this shit. The point was that today's Dems are significantly to the right of Dems even in the 90s.

Since you think the plans are so similar, why didn't the Dems take the Heritage plan and run with it back in 1993? They could have enacted a much better healthcare plan 20 years ago if Democrats hadn't been so liberal back then. Instead we got a shitty healthcare plan today because the Democrats are now are too conservative in your opinion. Interesting.

The evidence is that today's Dems based their healthcare reform on a GOP plan. You cannot refute that evidence. The best you can do is knock down the strawman that the plans are not identical.

That's your strawman, not mine...I never argued this. I said the only major similarities between the plans is the mandate and even that was structured completely differently.

 

[TerryMathews]

I know you know that the IRS has no authority to go after anyone who doesn't pay the tax penalty for not meeting ACA requirements because we've had this discussion before.



Of course you do because you are an intellectually dishonest piece of shit.

Currently. However, there is no permanent prohibition against collecting that penalty and as a part of the IRS guidelines it could be modified by any budget that passes.

I love how I'm the dishonest one here, when you're the one trying to convince everyone that Dolph Lungren Punisher is the same as Thomas Jane Punisher.

 

[TerryMathews]

Does this mean you admit you are unable to rebutt the fact that today's Dems are significantly to the right of Dems in the 90s?

I don't really care. Ive never been arguing that point. Ive only been arguing that you guys need to stop passing the buck on your turbl health care law.

 

[dank69]

Your own link notes differences on 7 of 16 comparison items. I guess 56% is really similar to you?

Of course differences between 4 of the items are so negligible that they are still both rated as Yes bringing that actual count to 13/16.

 

[dank69]

I don't really care. Ive never been arguing that point. Ive only been arguing that you guys need to stop passing the buck on your turbl health care law.

Well then start a thread about that and concede that Dems are moving to the right.

 

[TerryMathews]

It was never even introduced as a bill. That in no way proves how many supported or opposed it. I think we both know this.

Well, you see, back then before the passage of the "nuclear option", it could've been brought to a vote even without the leadership support if there was majority support. Therefore, there is only one logical conclusion...

 

[dank69]

Since you think the plans are so similar, why didn't the Dems take the Heritage plan and run with it back in 1993? They could have enacted a much better healthcare plan 20 years ago if Democrats hadn't been so liberal back then. Instead we got a shitty healthcare plan today because the Democrats are now are too conservative in your opinion. Interesting.


That's your strawman, not mine...I never argued this. I said the only major similarities between the plans is the mandate and even that was structured completely differently.

Reality, as evidenced by the info in Garfields link, shows that you are full of shit.

 

[dank69]

Well, you see, back then before the passage of the "nuclear option", it could've been brought to a vote even without the leadership support if there was majority support. Therefore, there is only one logical conclusion...

It has to be introduced before it can be brought to a vote. Maybe you should stop now before you make even more of an ass of yourself.

 

[TerryMathews]

Of course differences between 4 of the items are so negligible that they are still both rated as Yes bringing that actual count to 13/16.

Well, i dont know what to tell you. I read the differences and i dont agree with their conclusion.

Regardless, a difference is a difference.

Well then start a thread about that and concede that Dems are moving to the right.

You first. Concede that saying that PPACA is a Republican plan is intellectually dishonest. If you can't play by your own rules, there is no point.