Ford's Black Monday Announced...

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: SampSon
It's really amusing and sad watching the domestic car manufacturers slowly but surely fail.

It's not as though they haven't had any warning. I just shake my head at the number of gas guzzling vehicles the big 3 continue to churn out despite all the warnings of high gas prices. It doesn't take a genius to see where things are heading. The days of the giant SUV and those stupid lifted 4x4 trucks are numbered.

I, for one, welcome our Toyota and Honda overlords.

Every automaker has to revamp their product line to keep it competitive. It just so happens that GM re-engineered their large trucks this winter. If you're interested, we can count the number of cars the Big 3 has released (or updated) in the past 24 months and compare that to the number of large trucks.

Should I expect to see you bitching about Toyota in February when they unveil their next gen Tundra and other large vehicles based off its chassis?:roll:

 

[Svnla]

Originally posted by: Looney
I don't know how you guys can keep blaming the unions.

The UAW is NOT the ONLY one to blame.

They sure are deserve to be blame on SHODDY workmanship and POOR quality of the domestic vehicles. They are getting better than they used to be but still behind the imports, especially vehicles make in Japan.

<<<<------- used to work with UAW people for 10 years and many of their lack of work ethics were amazing beyond belief.

Here are some solid FACTS: Ford market share in 1995 = about 25%. Market share in 2005 = about 17%. I will get the GM and Chrysler market shares but you get the point.

Honda, Toyota, Nissan are building plants or expanding left and right. Even the Korea car makers are getting better and stronger. Time to wake up, domestics.

 

[Svnla]

Here are the market shares for the last 15 years <largest companies> <from Detroit news.com>

Data are from 1990 to 2004

GM = fall from 35.5 to 27.3
Ford = fall from 23.9 to 18.3
Chrysler = rise from 12.2 to 13 <Only one that gain, modestly>

Toyota = rise from 7.6 to 12.2
Honda = rise from 6.2 to 8.2
Nissa = rise from 4.5 to 5.8

Those numbers don't lie.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
They'd better start focusing on building quality vehicles that Americans like, which compete in the global market place price wise, or they are facing imminent doom.
If the products, marketing and price were up to par, they would not be in the predicament. That goes, union or no union. The markup the factory charges to the dealer is more than what the dealer makes on the vehicle when they sell it. I believe if they could produce the proper quality vehicle, with desirable models, they could cut the unions out, still pay the workers well, and pick up mass volumes of sales. Unfortunately, now it's slipped so far, it's going to be quite the task to earn the confidence of the American buyer back.
It is an embarrasment.

ford faces a price ceiling for most of its cars. that ceiling is set at the price of its main competitors. this would be true regardless of how the quality actually is, because it is perceived quality that influences buyers. so, ford has to accept that price. (if their quality does go up)

another thing ford has to accept is what it pays workers (and their defined benefit pension plan). there is the engineering price and there is the manufacturing price. i'd imagine engineering price is roughly similar across makes/models. ford's manufacturing price is, however, higher than many of its competitors.

so, accepting the price ceiling and labor costs, ford is already behind their competitors. far enough behind, in fact, that if they used the same tolerance level for parts, they would lose money on every vehicle sold. the product and price cannot be up to par, because ford faces a higher labor costs. given that millstone only price or product can be up to par. and when you're a mass manufacturer it's going to be price that is up to par.

the really interesting thing is that ford's operations, excluding north america, profited $3.5 billion through the first 3 quarters of 2005.

 

[gotsmack]

what would happen if Ford exited the north american market and then reentered after the unions fell apart? is it allowed to exit?

 

[Engineer]

Very sad....

<--- Coming from someone that watches US manufacturing in decline (at least number employeed, not output)

 

[m2kewl]

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE

Originally posted by: Looney
I don't know how you guys can keep blaming the unions. How exactly does the union cause sh1tty styling? How does the union workers cause electrical failures? Are they that bad that they're working on the job drunk?

its documented even in Honda's vehicles, the ones that are built in N.A. are less reliable and built shoddier than the non N.A. vehicles.

it's true. US built hondas are crappier then japanese built hondas. some companies are relocating their plants to canada b/c they know americans do ****** jobs.

in ford's case, they're not just getting raped by the unions; they're getting raped by $3/gal gas prices on their nice trucks and suv. good going ford!

 

[compuwiz1]

Hey, I've stood by trying to support US companies, as best I could, since I believe in that. Another factor of why I've driven Fords, is because as a manager at a Ford store, it was generally frowned upon not to drive what we sold. That being said, I am not really happy about the gas mileage of our 04 Eddie Bauer Expedition, nor the overall quality. It's going into the shop for about 7 different issues tomorrow. Fortunately, it's still under warrranty. The most minor issue is a bad seat belt, worst being a bad front axel joint. We also have an 04 Mustang GT. It drives like a 100K mile hoopty, and only has 28k miles on it.

I don't think I will be buying any more Fords, any time soon.

 

[Squisher]

I hope Ford will be able to stage a comeback in the future.

We need a manufacturing base here in the US.

 

[mAdD INDIAN]

I always thought Ford & Chrysler were doing well. Ford's European models are doing great and are very competitive in their segments. Ford's NA models are doing somewhat well. The Fusion, Mustang, and F-150 are hits, and the 500 is doing decent as well. Their other brands such as Aston Martin & Volvo & Land Rover are doing great as well. Aston Martin posted the a profit for the first time in many decades under Ford's leadership!

 

[Mday]

thank the unions. they priced the US out of manufacturing.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Hey, I've stood by trying to support US companies, as best I could, since I believe in that. Another factor of why I've driven Fords, is because as a manager at a Ford store, it was generally frowned upon not to drive what we sold. That being said, I am not really happy about the gas mileage of our 04 Eddie Bauer Expedition, nor the overall quality. It's going into the shop for about 7 different issues tomorrow. Fortunately, it's still under warrranty. The most minor issue is a bad seat belt, worst being a bad front axel joint. We also have an 04 Mustang GT. It drives like a 100K mile hoopty, and only has 28k miles on it.

I don't think I will be buying any more Fords, any time soon.

How bitter do you have to be to bad mouth your employer in a public forum.
Hopefully your boss is critiquing you on another board.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: KnightBreed

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: SampSon
It's really amusing and sad watching the domestic car manufacturers slowly but surely fail.

It's not as though they haven't had any warning. I just shake my head at the number of gas guzzling vehicles the big 3 continue to churn out despite all the warnings of high gas prices. It doesn't take a genius to see where things are heading. The days of the giant SUV and those stupid lifted 4x4 trucks are numbered.

I, for one, welcome our Toyota and Honda overlords.

Every automaker has to revamp their product line to keep it competitive. It just so happens that GM re-engineered their large trucks this winter. If you're interested, we can count the number of cars the Big 3 has released (or updated) in the past 24 months and compare that to the number of large trucks.

Should I expect to see you bitching about Toyota in February when they unveil their next gen Tundra and other large vehicles based off its chassis?:roll:

Hey, I love the Tundra. I bought one the first year they came out and got a good deal on it too. A better deal than I could have gotten on a Ford F150 anyway. My biggest complaint was the horrible fuel economy. I'd love to own a new Tundra Double Cab and I can afford it but I don't want to speculate on gas prices over the next five years and be stuck with a vehicle that gets 15mpg when gas costs over $3 a gallon.

Toyota is smart, they have waded into the largely successful fullsize truck/SUV market but it sure doesn't make up 100% of their profits like it has with the big 3 over the last 10+ years and this is one of the reasons Toyota and Honda are seeing record profits right now.

 

[thedarkwolf]

Ford finally has a good car line up which they haven't had in a while. Hopefully they get stuff turned around.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Looney
I don't know how you guys can keep blaming the unions. How exactly does the union cause sh1tty styling? How does the union workers cause electrical failures? Are they that bad that they're working on the job drunk?

Non union assemebly,transmission and engine shops require 25% fewer manhours to preoduce their product than a union shop. And union worker that get laid off because of automation basically get paid forever and dont have to do anything. This is not healthy deal for any of the big 3.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Hey, I've stood by trying to support US companies, as best I could, since I believe in that. Another factor of why I've driven Fords, is because as a manager at a Ford store, it was generally frowned upon not to drive what we sold. That being said, I am not really happy about the gas mileage of our 04 Eddie Bauer Expedition, nor the overall quality. It's going into the shop for about 7 different issues tomorrow. Fortunately, it's still under warrranty. The most minor issue is a bad seat belt, worst being a bad front axel joint. We also have an 04 Mustang GT. It drives like a 100K mile hoopty, and only has 28k miles on it.

I don't think I will be buying any more Fords, any time soon.

How bitter do you have to be to bad mouth your employer in a public forum.
Hopefully your boss is critiquing you on another board.

He's only telling the truth. Ford is not his employer, he works at a dealership.
Work at one, and you'll know how many problems the cars have.
All cars have problems. Jap cars are not as good in quality as they were when they earned the reputation they currently enjoy.
Honda, Toyota....really aren't much better than GM. Like I said, they are still enjoying the reputation earned when they really were head and shoulders above in quality.
Ford and Chrysler are below all of the above mentioned, but Chrysler is doing better all the time.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby
The very unions that helped them are the ones that ultimately destroyed them.

Actually, Ford rose to the top without the unions. Henry Ford was adamantly against them, and the UAW was not able to finally bust into Ford's shops until 1941, the last of all the Detroit automakers. Prior to that though, Ford paid the highest wages, had the best benefits, and the shortest hours and work weeks. In fact, Henry Ford is credited with inventing the 5-day 40-hour work and the modern 2-day weekend in 1926.

 

[Analog]

Announcement at 10:30 AM today, EST.

 

[AnitaPeterson]

ummmm... maybe the bad quality of the cars is also due to the "lease" mentality of the consumers? Let's face it, people who lease a car fro a couple of years don't really care if the wheels are going to fall off after they take the car beack to the dealership.

Since, unfortunately, it is clear that the "lease" segment of the market is growing, and dealers tend to make their money on the first years of the car's life, it's clear that this mentality permeates to the level of the auto workers - who are part of the society, and therefore susceptible to be contaminated by the same ideas (i.e. "who cares about this car turning into junk after a couple of years, since nobody wants it afterwards, anyway... and who knows where I'll be, as well, so nobody can point at me in any case").

 

[MikeMike]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JLGatsby
The very unions that helped them are the ones that ultimately destroyed them.

Actually, Ford rose to the top without the unions. Henry Ford was adamantly against them, and the UAW was not able to finally bust into Ford's shops until 1941, the last of all the Detroit automakers. Prior to that though, Ford paid the highest wages, had the best benefits, and the shortest hours and work weeks. In fact, Henry Ford is credited with inventing the 5-day 40-hour work and the modern 2-day weekend in 1926.

and the assembly line, and the this and the that, he was a modern working mans genious

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JLGatsby
The very unions that helped them are the ones that ultimately destroyed them.

Actually, Ford rose to the top without the unions. Henry Ford was adamantly against them, and the UAW was not able to finally bust into Ford's shops until 1941, the last of all the Detroit automakers. Prior to that though, Ford paid the highest wages, had the best benefits, and the shortest hours and work weeks. In fact, Henry Ford is credited with inventing the 5-day 40-hour work and the modern 2-day weekend in 1926.

and the assembly line, and the this and the that, he was a modern working mans genious

lol!

 

[Analog]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JLGatsby
The very unions that helped them are the ones that ultimately destroyed them.

Actually, Ford rose to the top without the unions. Henry Ford was adamantly against them, and the UAW was not able to finally bust into Ford's shops until 1941, the last of all the Detroit automakers. Prior to that though, Ford paid the highest wages, had the best benefits, and the shortest hours and work weeks. In fact, Henry Ford is credited with inventing the 5-day 40-hour work and the modern 2-day weekend in 1926.

Ford was the #1 automaker prior to the union. The massive strikes that forced the UAW into Ford for so long (Henry Ford thought he could hold them out by sheer time) tumbled Ford into the 2nd spot after GM, and they never recovered from that! Now it looks like they'll drop some more...

 

[edro]

Does anyone know which plants are targetted? I have family working for Ford.

 

[imported_Phil]

I doubt that Ford is going under worldwide, but I really hope they don't. The UK versions of the Focus and the Mondeo are excellent cars for their class, and I much prefer driving the Focus over most other cars I've driven.

 

[Linflas]

They missed their opportunity back during the "voluntary" cutbacks in the number of cars imported to the US by Japanese manufacturers. That is when they should have dropped prices and made the auto buying process as easy as it is to buy any other large appliance. Instead they struck unrealistic deals with the UAW and continued life as normal. There were a lot of editorials to that effect back then along with Ross Perots highly publicized falling out with GM after they bought EDS and he tried to point out to them how their business practices were dooming them to failure.