[Forbes] AMD Is Wrong About 'The Witcher 3' And Nvidia's HairWorks

[ocre]

So your saying that the draw call test is what we should expect in final performance when we get DX12?

Did you read the part where the developer said this isnt a measure of indivual card performance and doesnt reflect what performance would be like?

So are you saying that in DX12 the gtx960 will give you the same performance as the 980 and titanX?
Do you know why these perform similar?
Becuase draw calls is not a measure of the graphic cards performance but rather the measure of Nvidia's draw call ability in the API. Games will not have a fraction of that many draw calls. We will not be draw call limited in DX12, not even close. Nowhere close. none of this will matter.

but even if it did.........
Also, you are assuming that nvidia cannot do any better. I would bet that the limited draw call isnt fixed and could be improved, if there is a real need to.

 

[frezaina]

It seems that the game changes it's lighting when in conversations, a guy at CDPR forums made a very interesting comparison.

You can test this transition by entering a conversation and then recording a video with fraps. Then play the video frame by frame (ctrl + arrow right in media player classic) because the change happens really quickly.

 

[Jaydip]

We know initial performance points. It is something, but not the end result of course.

But, and an important one. -> It is hard to optimize something simpler. The best performance of a hardware will be easier to pull off. That is why I said that it would benefit AMD in the software side of things the most. Because no matter how great NV has been at drivers, their advantage will matter far less with lower level API's. Meaning, GPU vendors have less software work to do, in every metric.
Meaning, hardware and architecture will matter most.

Firstly both NV and AMD has quite some time in their hands to optimize their drivers.I will not read into any benches too much at this moment, I will wait till any DX 12 game launches.

Secondly hardware and architecture will always be different among these two vendors and both will have pros and cons, they just need to play according to their strength is all.

 

[MisterLilBig]

So your saying that the draw call test is what we should expect in final performance when we get DX12?

No, I said this -> "We know initial performance points. It is something, but not the end result of course."

Did you read the part where the developer said this isnt a measure of indivual card performance and doesnt reflect what performance would be like?

The developer? Which developer? And what source(link) are you talking about? And why would this and any other feature, for that matter, not be a measure of individual card performance? That's quite the weird statement.

So are you saying that in DX12 the gtx960 will give you the same performance as the 980 and titanX?
Do you know why these perform similar?
Becuase draw calls is not a measure of the graphic cards performance but rather the measure of Nvidia's draw call ability in the API.

So that's why the Titan X does worse than a GTX 980 in some cases. Because of NV's "draw call ability in the API".

Games will not have a fraction of that many draw calls. We will not be draw call limited in DX12, not even close. Nowhere close. none of this will matter.

You don't want improvement in technology, that's fine. But, I do. The games made for consoles already use thousands more draw calls than they ever did on the PC. Meaning, it has been used, for years.

but even if it did.........
Also, you are assuming that nvidia cannot do any better. I would bet that the limited draw call isnt fixed and could be improved, if there is a real need to.

I didn't say that. Quote me.

Firstly both NV and AMD has quite some time in their hands to optimize their drivers.I will not read into any benches too much at this moment, I will wait till any DX 12 game launches.

Which is why I said it's not the end result.

Secondly hardware and architecture will always be different among these two vendors and both will have pros and cons, they just need to play according to their strength is all.

There's more than two, but yeah, agree.

 

[bryanW1995]

ANd this is wrong how? Nvidia is a business, they want to make money,and gain market share right? It seems to be working for them.

The Nintendo thing was just an example, we all know they make little kids games.

(hides Wii U controller)

Um...it's for my kids! Really!

Nope, they are a business. Their mission critical goal is to maximize profits. If they make 1 Billion in a quarter, they will immediately brainstorm how to make more, enough is never enough. All businesses strive to operate this way.

I think people develop a bit of captors syndrome in identifying with these companies, we are consumers, not stakeholders. We want $100 graphics cards that are twice as fast every year. We want to maximize return for our purchase.

I do believe that legislation should be enacted to limit software companies colluding to limit performance of other companies' offerings. Just like how AMD and Intel share all the extensions and they compete purely on a hardware level, as hardware companies should.

Its why I have written several simply worded communications to my senator and representatives that has shown that this is an area we need the government to regulate. nVidia or AMD should neither be allowed to influence game developers outside of branding or co-marketing. Anything that actually changes how a game functions should be regulated, and hopefully will be someday.

My neighbor's kid gave my kid a dirty look the other day, so I wrote my Senator a strongly-worded letter. He needs to introduce a bill to Prevent Neighborhood Dirty Looks (PNDL)!!

Just what we need, a Federal Government of a single country attempting to micromanage a niche market.

Is it possible that Maxwell does better at some things Keplar/AMD can't?
I'm no gpu techy, just askin.

You are a lifer who has been posting here non-stop for 12 years...yet you're not "gpu techy"? Come on, dude. I stopped coming in here ~ 2 years ago, and you're posting just as much now as you were then. How could you NOT have picked up a huge amount of gpu knowledge over that time just from hanging around here in the forums? It's almost like you're being deliberately obtuse.

I have been happy for the most part with my 780ti but having experienced a couple games now where kepler performance doesn't look right makes me lean towards an AMD card next round. I buy based on $/performance but seeing this purported lack of caring for their install base in the name of profits steers me towards the other company.

It is hard to make a regular person switch from a brand they prefer but this will surely do it. Time will tell if we are talking a couple percent market share or more. Stunts like this are not easily forgotten, Nvidia should clearly know this from watching AMD.

With NV running at 75% market share and AMD as a company sliding downhill (though GPU division looks like their strongest), I think that we should be prepared for more "forced obsolescence" in the future.

It's the fear that causes them to exploit the strength of current offerings which in turn sacrifices performance on even their own past generations.

I'd bet that this specific strategy has more to do with convincing their customers to upgrade sooner than it does with scoring points vs AMD. NV is not a monopoly yet, but this sort of behavior is typical of businesses that dominate their market.

 

[Azix]

With NV running at 75% market share and AMD as a company sliding downhill (though GPU division looks like their strongest), I think that we should be prepared for more "forced obsolescence" in the future.

Statements like these are why AMD has a bad rep. Lose one quarter where the competition had new cards significantly and that's it. All of a sudden your entire market share is only 25%.

Then nvidia messes up repeatedly and nobody remembers. lies about the 970? nope. Messed up support and performance on a game they helped with? nope. The history of poorly performing gameworks games? nope. It's always pro nvidia, and down on AMD.

AMD has more GPUs out here than nvidia does. Partly because of their APUs but also because they don't fail every quarter on discrete.

The 970 might be doing well in games like witcher this year, but by next year it could be doing 780 levels especially with that RAM issue.

 

[xthetenth]

Just what we need, a Federal Government of a single country attempting to micromanage a niche market.

With NV running at 75% market share and AMD as a company sliding downhill (though GPU division looks like their strongest), I think that we should be prepared for more "forced obsolescence" in the future.

I'd bet that this specific strategy has more to do with convincing their customers to upgrade sooner than it does with scoring points vs AMD. NV is not a monopoly yet, but this sort of behavior is typical of businesses that dominate their market.

This is an interesting post. You just about nail the problem about unregulated markets in sectors where the natural tendency is towards monopoly, which is at a pretty severe disconnect from what you said earlier. In general though, a monopoly would be horrible for the market.

 

[maddie]

.......

You are a lifer who has been posting here non-stop for 12 years...yet you're not "gpu techy"? Come on, dude. I stopped coming in here ~ 2 years ago, and you're posting just as much now as you were then. How could you NOT have picked up a huge amount of gpu knowledge over that time just from hanging around here in the forums? It's almost like you're being deliberately obtuse.



With NV running at 75% market share and AMD as a company sliding downhill (though GPU division looks like their strongest), I think that we should be prepared for more "forced obsolescence" in the future.



I'd bet that this specific strategy has more to do with convincing their customers to upgrade sooner than it does with scoring points vs AMD. NV is not a monopoly yet, but this sort of behavior is typical of businesses that dominate their market.

Ist part:
I've wondered about this.

@ happy medium, are you in marketing?

2nd & 3rd parts.

Wrote a post about this process to increase revenue. Some here were unhappy with my post.

A) Increase market share [happened]
B) Increase ASP [happened]
C) Increase turnover [happening?]

 

[bryanW1995]

Supporting? No, let me make myself clear., I don't care about that underhanded tactics stuff.To me its the way business is played everyday, isn't it?

I'm a consumer, not the ethics committee.

Are you moonlighting on the FIFA executive board now?

Ist part:
I've wondered about this.

@ happy medium, are you in marketing?

2nd & 3rd parts.

Wrote a post about this process to increase revenue. Some here were unhappy with my post.

A) Increase market share [happened]
B) Increase ASP [happened]
C) Increase turnover [happening?]

Forced obsolescence is so obviously the correct behavior for a company with 3/4 of the market that I'm surprised that people are even debating the issue. At least for now, NV's biggest competition is...last gen NV cards.

 

[bryanW1995]

Please refrain from unsubstantiated flamebait "facts" like this. It is against forum rules.

And for a self described "Open Radeon Fanboy" you sure do seem to buy a lot of nVidia cards.

With all the crap in the preceding 260+ posts, THAT is the one that you call out for being against the ToS? Wow...

I've always had a slight preference for AMD and Ati, I thought that I'd gone to nerd heaven when they merged. Since then I've bought more NV cards, however. It is one thing to have an admitted bias in favor of one company, but quite another to foolishly and blindly support a company that is not competitive at your chosen price point. I know many others on this forum who have a much stronger desire to purchase AMD cards yet often end up buying NV, instead (and vice versa in many cases). Most of us, after all the flaming and rhetoric have died down, end up buying the card that makes the most sense for our individual situation.

 

[xthetenth]

You can basically time the market so you buy whichever brand makes you happier though. I did that accidentally and wound up buying six NV cards in a row. If you are specifically trying to do so I'm pretty sure you could manage to get at the very least overall good deals.

 

[exar333]

You can basically time the market so you buy whichever brand makes you happier though. I did that accidentally and wound up buying six NV cards in a row. If you are specifically trying to do so I'm pretty sure you could manage to get at the very least overall good deals.

True.

I 'needed' the 970 when it launched to play DAI. Had I played it a few months later, I would grabbed a 290x most likely...

 

[ocre]

No, I said this -> "We know initial performance points. It is something, but not the end result of course."




The developer? Which developer? And what source(link) are you talking about? And why would this and any other feature, for that matter, not be a measure of individual card performance? That's quite the weird statement.



So that's why the Titan X does worse than a GTX 980 in some cases. Because of NV's "draw call ability in the API".



You don't want improvement in technology, that's fine. But, I do. The games made for consoles already use thousands more draw calls than they ever did on the PC. Meaning, it has been used, for years.



I didn't say that. Quote me.



Which is why I said it's not the end result.




There's more than two, but yeah, agree.

Are you serious?

If you dont see it i will repeat,

"The purpose of this test is to compare APIs on a single PC. You should not use these scores to compare systems or graphics cards."

Any crap you read on a click bait site needs to be disregarded. It is worthless propaganda.

Let me show you how it is done..........

Wholly smack, forget about the 290x being faster, look much smaller and cheaper GTX960 OC is faster than titan X in DX12

Everyone rush out and buy cheap gtx960s because in DX12 they will be faster than the titan X----------------->

titan x 13.4million vs
the gtx 960OC which is over 15million!!!!!!

WOW!!!

unbelievable!!

 

[maddie]

Are you moonlighting on the FIFA executive board now?



Forced obsolescence is so obviously the correct behavior for a company with 3/4 of the market that I'm surprised that people are even debating the issue. At least for now, NV's biggest competition is...last gen NV cards.

Talking about it limits its effectiveness. Witness the Witcher 3 performance backlash by Kepler owners.

If AMD was smart, they should capitalize on this in their marketing. Speak openly on the topic as its relevant to many at present.

WE LEAVE NO ONE BEHIND

 

[MisterLilBig]

Are you serious?

What I find interesting is that you think this company invested resources to create this "meaningless" benchmark. What is also interesting is how serious you take my comment of it being "something", even tho I said it wasn't the "end result".

If this is not a metric, then you don't believe in any benchmark.

Let me show you how it is done..........

You are proving your point by using benchmarks from two different CPU's. That's interesting...

 

[ocre]

What I find interesting is that you think this company invested resources to create this "meaningless" benchmark. What is also interesting is how serious you take my comment of it being "something", even tho I said it wasn't the "end result".

If this is not a metric, then you don't believe in any benchmark.



You are proving your point by using benchmarks from two different CPU's. That's interesting...

So that is your response?
Let me quote you, "The developer? Which developer? And what source(link) are you talking about? And why would this and any other feature, for that matter, not be a measure of individual card performance? That's quite the weird statement"

And i show you how terribly wrong you were, that the developer says exactly that.

"The purpose of this test is to compare APIs on a single PC. You should not use these scores to compare systems or graphics cards."

So are you really having some kind of issue in comprehension? I am seriously asking. I really dont know what else to say or where to start.

When you say this,
"If this is not a metric, then you don't believe in any benchmark."

it is very clear you arent getting what has been presented right here in front of you. You ignore it or didnt understand it.

You say i dont believe any benchmark but you couldnt be any more wrong on this too. the difference here is I know how to interpret the data. I am seriously wondering if you really dont understand the 3dmark draw call test or just playing a role right now. Considering your original post quoting me, I will give you the benefit of doubt and say it is the former.

If you get some spare time, do a little research on draw calls and how many games use today. Then look at star swarm and how a half a million in an actual game would be revolutionary. Then maybe you can start to understand why nvidia isnt gonna be bottlenecked by 15million any time soon.

 

[boozzer]

Talking about it limits its effectiveness. Witness the Witcher 3 performance backlash by Kepler owners.

If AMD was smart, they should capitalize on this in their marketing. Speak openly on the topic as its relevant to many at present.

WE LEAVE NO ONE BEHIND

that is too vague. it need more of a hmmft for marketing purposes.

@1995 are you defending Forced obsolescence? if kepler performance is really "deliberate" sabotaging via drivers, wth is the DOj doing not suing the crap out of nvidia for monopolistic business practices? NV isn't microsoft(immune to lawsuits by the doj because it actually affects the stock market), it can be sued.

 

[DEW73]

that is too vague. it need more of a hmmft for marketing purposes.

How about "The way you meant it to be played!"

 

[boozzer]

How about "The way you meant it to be played!"

thatis even worst

 

[3DVagabond]

I can see a Fixer skit for this.

 

[MisterLilBig]

"The purpose of this test is to compare APIs on a single PC. You should not use these scores to compare systems or graphics cards."

I know what the developer said. I know what you said. And I said. -> "What I find interesting is that you think this company invested resources to create this "meaningless" benchmark."

In simpler words, you think these guys, the developers, invested thousands of dollars on this useless and meaningless test. I don't. Simple.

it is very clear you arent getting what has been presented right here in front of you. You ignore it or didnt understand it.

I don't drink the kool-aid easily. We have different opinions of what it is. To me, it is still a metric, of many, that can be used to show the power of the hardware.

the difference here is I know how to interpret the data.

Do tell.

If you get some spare time, do a little research on draw calls and how many games use today. Then look at star swarm and how a half a million in an actual game would be revolutionary. Then maybe you can start to understand why nvidia isnt gonna be bottlenecked by 15million any time soon.

Obviously looking at PC game would be stupid for such comparison. But, console games I have seen the > 50,000 DC's being thrown around. I don't think of Star Swarm as the limits of Interactive Entertainment.



AND...I never said Nvidia was gonna be bottlenecked. (Jeez!)

 

[Flapdrol1337]

I can see a Fixer skit for this.

Please no.

 

[SirPauly]

Talking about it limits its effectiveness. Witness the Witcher 3 performance backlash by Kepler owners.

If AMD was smart, they should capitalize on this in their marketing. Speak openly on the topic as its relevant to many at present.

WE LEAVE NO ONE BEHIND

nVidia offered DSR support to Maxwell, Kepler and Fermi, what AMD customers were left behind with VSR?

 

[Headfoot]

nVidia offered DSR support to Maxwell, Kepler and Fermi, what AMD customers were left behind with VSR?

As if adding new features is AT ALL the same as ensuring an old series of cards doesn't completely tank in FPS on new games.

Not even remotely the same.

 

[SirPauly]

If nVidia's extremist, evil, purposely sabotaging strategy was to force Kepler and Fermi owners to buy Maxwell, why in the hell offer Fermi and Kepler owners a DSR feature marketed for Maxwell? nVidia would of ignored Kepler and Fermi customers and not spent the resources but yet they did.