[Forbes] AMD Is Wrong About 'The Witcher 3' And Nvidia's HairWorks

[SirPauly]

Why should what the general public decides to consume en mass be equated with being automatically a positive outcome and a reflection of the best products succeeding. This may very well be the highest form of a strawman a person could think of.

The signature clearly offers rightly or wrongly. You have two opposing sides that believe that their thinking is correct or the right way --- instead of repeating over the other and being circular, ultimately, the market decides, rightly or wrongly. Where you're getting a straw man out of that is beyond me.

 

[AnandThenMan]

So do you bring it up hundreds of times (probably not an exaggeration at this point) without any inference? Are you saying it with no opinion of your own whatsoever, if so I would find this extremely odd because we all know the "market decides" this is very obvious hence no need to state it over and over.

It would be like saying the best selling products are the most popular.

 

[xthetenth]

The signature clearly offers rightly or wrongly. You have two opposing sides that believe that their thinking is correct or the right way --- instead of repeating over the other and being circular, ultimately, the market decides, rightly or wrongly. Where you're getting a straw man out of that is beyond me.

I (and presumably you given the avatar) live in a country where a lot of very loud people continually state that whatever the market does is automatically good, so it's unexpected to see someone say something similar without any implicit value judgment.

 

[Keysplayr]

So do you bring it up hundreds of times (probably not an exaggeration at this point) without any inference? Are you saying it with no opinion of your own whatsoever, if so I would find this extremely odd because we all know the "market decides" this is very obvious hence no need to state it over and over.

It would be like saying the best selling products are the most popular.

What does the market tell you? What is happening right now?

 

[SirPauly]

I (and presumably you given the avatar) live in a country where a lot of very loud people continually state that whatever the market does is automatically good, so it's unexpected to see someone say something similar without any implicit value judgment.

This forum is not about me but clearly offered rightly or wrongly, The topic is GameWorks and AMD's reaction.

 

[MattL]

Personally, the way I see it there's a lot of blame to go around:

Nvidia: Not for implementing custom features or trying to exclusive support for them from games, but for not opening up HairWorks like AMD did TressFX. I think that's a fair criticism of them especially in comparison to their competitor being open.

AMD: For not jumping on this sooner in the interest of the consumers who buy their products. As has been stated in the article they certainly could have done much more than they did and much earlier on.

CD Projekt: For not putting more effort into working with AMD earlier on their end, it's not all AMDs fault. They have consumers buying their game using AMD cards so they should have put more consideration towards those users. Why should AMD bare the only burden of supporting this for an entire section of their own consumers, their nvidia deal probably was started and established in a very mutual way, who knows maybe even CD Projekt initiating...

In the end the problem is overblown though it seems... the Nvidia optimized features aren't game making or breaking and companies have a right to exclusively work together and leave another a bit out in the rain. With that said the consequence is consumers being upset (even if the issue overall is rather small) and I think consumers have every right to be upset... there's plenty of blame to go around for each company involved... as well as the reviewers and consumers who exaggerate things.

 

[Goatsecks]

Why should what the general public decides to consume en mass be equated with being automatically a positive outcome and a reflection of the best products succeeding. This may very well be the highest form of a strawman a person could think of.

So what argument is the strawman protecting?

 

[Goatsecks]

It would be like saying the best selling products are the most popular.

Have you read that out loud to yourself?

 

[Headfoot]

For all of you question-dodgers who parrot "The market decides, the market decides" as if market effect is the sole judge of all issues.

Taylor Swift sells a lot of albums but you don't see anyone saying Taylor Swift is the pinnacle of music writing.

Standard Oil's competitors didn't do so well either. I can't image this myopic viewpoint is anything but deliberate excuse making...

Dr. Oz sells a lot of supplements which do exactly nothing for you while claiming they make you skinny, or they're a miracle drug. The market decided to buy those bunk supplements en masse. That means they're good right?

 

[Goatsecks]

For all of you question-dodgers who parrot "The market decides, the market decides" as if market effect is the sole judge of all issues.

Sorry, which questions are being dodged?

 

[sontin]

The original argument is that since source code for Gameworks libraries, such as Hairworks, are not available to AMD, they can not optimize specifically for them giving Nvidia an advantage when these libraries are used.

This is contrasted against AMD's TressFX which is open and can and has been optimized by Nvidia for use with their hardware.

I'll let you guys continue to argue the merits of this approach.

Hm, how can nVidia optimize for TressFX when nVidia isnt allowed to get source code from Gaming Evolved titles

Funny, huh?

 

[AnandThenMan]

Hm, how can nVidia optimize for TressFX when nVidia isnt allowed to get source code from Gaming Evolved titles

Funny, huh?

 

[sontin]

How can AMD measure the rendering time of Hairworks when they cant see the code?

Hm. Questions over questions.

 

[Magee_MC]

Hm, how can nVidia optimize for TressFX when nVidia isnt allowed to get source code from Gaming Evolved titles

Funny, huh?

AMD's code for TressFX is Open Source and available for NV to view and optimize for.

 

[Hitman928]

How can AMD measure the rendering time of Hairworks when they cant see the code?

Hm. Questions over questions.

It's called profiling the code, not that difficult.

 

[chimaxi83]

For all of you question-dodgers who parrot "The market decides, the market decides" as if market effect is the sole judge of all issues.

Taylor Swift sells a lot of albums but you don't see anyone saying Taylor Swift is the pinnacle of music writing.

Standard Oil's competitors didn't do so well either. I can't image this myopic viewpoint is anything but deliberate excuse making...

Dr. Oz sells a lot of supplements which do exactly nothing for you while claiming they make you skinny, or they're a miracle drug. The market decided to buy those bunk supplements en masse. That means they're good right?

"The market decides" should be a punch line around here. What it really means is "I got nothin, bro."

 

[sontin]

Yes, and after that they comes optimizing the code through the driver.

If you can profile the code you can optimize for it. Otherwise you wouldnt see any performance gains in games with new drivers.

That brings us back to the question:
Why is AMD not doing this?

 

[Hitman928]

Yes, and after that they comes optimizing the code through the driver.

If you can profile the code you can optimize for it. Otherwise you wouldnt see any performance gains in games with new drivers.

That brings us back to the question:
Why is AMD not doing this?

They are, but how much they can optimize is limited as with not being able to work with developers and the source code makes it much more difficult and time consuming. Certain things may also be more or less impossible to optimize or even implement depending on how the source is written.

 

[SirPauly]

Personally, the way I see it there's a lot of blame to go around:

Nvidia: Not for implementing custom features or trying to exclusive support for them from games, but for not opening up HairWorks like AMD did TressFX. I think that's a fair criticism of them especially in comparison to their competitor being open.

AMD: For not jumping on this sooner in the interest of the consumers who buy their products. As has been stated in the article they certainly could have done much more than they did and much earlier on.

CD Projekt: For not putting more effort into working with AMD earlier on their end, it's not all AMDs fault. They have consumers buying their game using AMD cards so they should have put more consideration towards those users. Why should AMD bare the only burden of supporting this for an entire section of their own consumers, their nvidia deal probably was started and established in a very mutual way, who knows maybe even CD Projekt initiating...

In the end the problem is overblown though it seems... the Nvidia optimized features aren't game making or breaking and companies have a right to exclusively work together and leave another a bit out in the rain. With that said the consequence is consumers being upset (even if the issue overall is rather small) and I think consumers have every right to be upset... there's plenty of blame to go around for each company involved... as well as the reviewers and consumers who exaggerate things.

A very balanced post and enjoyed the read, thanks!

 

[ocre]

For all of you question-dodgers who parrot "The market decides, the market decides" as if market effect is the sole judge of all issues.

Taylor Swift sells a lot of albums but you don't see anyone saying Taylor Swift is the pinnacle of music writing.

Standard Oil's competitors didn't do so well either. I can't image this myopic viewpoint is anything but deliberate excuse making...

Dr. Oz sells a lot of supplements which do exactly nothing for you while claiming they make you skinny, or they're a miracle drug. The market decided to buy those bunk supplements en masse. That means they're good right?

Do what?
So where did you read someone saying that hairworks was the pinnacle of gaming?

So I should be bashing Taylor swift because it is not the music that I like? we all should band together in protest until they stop selling Taylor swift records?

I really don't care the least about Taylor swift or who buys what. I get confused when I read post like, "gamers should care about this or think like that", "gamers shouldn't care about perfrormance per watt if they overclock", or similar rants.

Hairworks is an option and your Taylor swift example just makes your argument look ridiculous.

No Taylor swift isn't the best thing that ever happened to music, not in my ears. But I have no beef whatsoever with anyone who enjoys it. I darn sure wouldn't be busting on people for enjoying it. It is 100% their own right.

Sometimes it is hard to accept that not everyone thinks like you. Not everyone enjoys the things you do. But I absolutely believe that Taylor swift reserves the right to make music and sell it. And if people do enjoy it, I sure wouldn't want to take it away from them just because I don't like it.

I spend my time doing things I enjoy, not at all concerned with what others decide they like.

 

[SirPauly]

But one may say the GeForce Brand and its products are the pinnacle of PC discrete gaming based on their share. I don't agree with it based on AMD's talents and their engineering potential.

 

[MattL]

But one may say the GeForce Brand and its products are the pinnacle of PC discrete gaming based on their share.

One *could*, but it really doesn't make sense, at least in that phrasing. Just because one brand has a majority of market share doesn't mean people would argue they are the "pinnacle"... just simply they have the most market share that more people buy their brand of product vs other brands, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[SirPauly]

But why are the people buying GeForce much more than Radeon?

 

[MattL]

But why are the people buying GeForce much more than Radeon?

Why did Apple used to sell more iOS devices than Android? Why does Android sell more than iOS? Why does car X sell more than car Y?

There are countless context specific answers to this. Such as brand awareness, cost, availability, deals and sales, marketing, etc.

I'd argue GeForce vs. Radeon mostly is brand awareness and perception. Something that might be justly deserved and maybe not. Nvidia seems to get away with weak decisions better than AMD does though, not unlike how Apple seems to keep it's fans loyal despite bad decisions and mistakes. Purely my guess of course. Brand perception is a *very* hard thing to change.

 

[AnandThenMan]

But why are the people buying GeForce much more than Radeon?

When Nvidia has inferior products both in price and performance they still sell in large numbers when AMD is in the same situation their numbers tank. This is the answer that you don't want to hear. And don't even go into marketshare numbers when is the last time Nvidia had under 20%? There have been times NV deserved to be at 20% but it never happened because of "brand" which is much more powerful than the actual merits of the product.

This is like business 101 the 2nd day of class.