There is a reason that the BEST healthcare in the world is provided in the USA...capitalism and the concept of competition. While the ethics of healthcare being treated as a business may not be as clear as in a socialized system, this competiton fuels research, higher levels of technology, and an overall higher standard of patient care. Everybody always says how "great" Cananda's healthcare system is...thats a load of BS! In Cananda, you have to wait weeks for an MRI. Many Canadians flood accross the border to get special surgery...services they cant offer because they can't afford to give it to everybody who needs it. So we could socialize healthcare, it would just water down the system, making procedures and such too costly=lower level of healthcare...I hate this argument
IHateMyJob2004
Lifer
- Sep 29, 2004
- 18,656
- 68
- 91
In a limited manner, yes.
I think everyone should have acces to basic healthcare. CO-Pays should be higher though. Maybe $50 co-pays. I'm willing to help out needy people but I refuse to give things to them. I've busted my arse to get where I am and for people to be lazy and get the benefits of my hard work is total BS.
EIDT: Voted no because your pole sucks.
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
- 70,150
- 5
- 0
I'm not a US cit but we live here and have lived in Canada and I don't support it. The system has an averaging effect. The poor get better health care and the rich get worse. Actually it's not the rich, but the upper half or two thirds or whatever - I'm not sure the number. In any case, I am in that top part (not being cocky, because most of us here are), and i don't want to have my family's health sacrificed so that somebody in the lower part can get better health. It's simply a matter of resources. Not every person in a country can have access top perfect on-demand health care with a private physician. Capitalism dictates that those with more resources generally get more. I am not sure why health should be any different. The dirt-poor are still allowed to get a basic level of health care, as afforded by the government. What I get now, by having the same health insurance as millions of others, is across the board superior coverage to what I get in Canada (using it as an example). More doctors, shorter wait times. Why in hell would I want to give that up?
I think it's interesting how some believe that Universal health coverage, in some way, leads to a decline in the "quality" of medicine administered. I sugguest one look to the standard of living of scandnavian countries, who have in one form or another a socialized health care system. Anyways, in my opinion, such a system would never come to the United States. The health care lobby is amazingly strong, sadly. I think we can all agree the system needs to be reformed, for the better.
Originally posted by: mwtgg
Damn those rich people getting more of their money back. (Congress passed those tax cuts, not Bush.)
Originally posted by: russianpower
So if it isn't in the consitution we shouldn't enforce or allow it.?Look at social security. is it in the consitution
In my case I believe everyone should have health care.
No, and SS shouldn't have been started. What are you getting at?
Nice Spin and Bull ove, Congress passed Bush's Tax cut for the wealthy Agenda.
Ah yes, SS is not in the Constitution so should just shut it down completely now and re-distrube all the money to the wealthy right???
That's what is going to happen anyway. <shrugs>
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
- 57,547
- 20,261
- 146
Um, the French revolution led to more personal freedom both social, AND economic. Freedom is selfishness and selfishness is freedom. Greed and libertarianism (classical liberalism) may go hand in hand but not modern liberalism. Not by a long shot. There is a difference between greed and theft. Modern liberalism is theft.
How about an Ayn Rand quote?
"Since time immemorial and pre-industrial, 'greed' has been the accusation hurled at the rich by the concrete-bound illiterates who were unable to conceive of the source of wealth or of the motivation of those who produce it."
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
- 57,547
- 20,261
- 146
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: mwtgg
Damn those rich people getting more of their money back. (Congress passed those tax cuts, not Bush.)
Originally posted by: russianpower
So if it isn't in the consitution we shouldn't enforce or allow it.?
In my case I believe everyone should have health care.
No, and SS shouldn't have been started. What are you getting at?
Nice Spin and Bull ove, Congress passed Bush's Tax cut for the wealthy Agenda.
Ah yes, SS is not in the Constitution so should just shut it down completely now and re-distrube all the money to the wealthy right???
That's what is going to happen anyway. <shrugs>
How about you redistribute it to those who paid it?
The same with tax cuts. Of course, the concept of equal tax cuts based on percentages obviously escapes you. Of course the wealthy get more when taxes are cut. Because they pay more to begin with. The top 5% pay roughly 50% of the tax burden in the US as it is.
Shouldn't those who pay the taxes be the ones to benefit from cuts?
That's about the overall health system. I believe that the poster is saying that those with actual health insurance can get the best healthcare in the world.
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
- 57,547
- 20,261
- 146
http://www.taxfoundation.org/prtopincometable.html
You know, it simply amazes me that you can even breathe, much less type words on the internet.
The top 1% pay 33.71%
The top 5% pay 53.80%
The top 10% pay 65.73%
The top 25% pay 83.90%
The top 50% pay 96.5%
The BOTTOM 50% pay 3.5%
In other words, half the tax payers in this country are literally supporting the other half... with the top 5% carrying the lion's share of the burden.
Maybe if you actually knew what you were talking about, you could form valid political opinions based on real facts.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
AGI is a small piece of the pie. 800B out of ~2000B federal according to to the llink you provided. Does'nt include regressive taxes like SS, medicare excise, sales and all the others. Not to mention erned income read working wages is taxed higher than passive income read rich. Bascially quoting that stat alone is dumb. To get a more accurate pitcure we need to look at all taxes.
When we look at a total tax picture we see taxes are flat.
http://ase.tufts.edu/gdae/Pubs...3-10-Tax_Incidence.pdf
When we look at a total tax picture we see taxes are flat.
http://ase.tufts.edu/gdae/Pubs...3-10-Tax_Incidence.pdf
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
- 57,547
- 20,261
- 146
SS and Medicare are not really taxes, but insurance/retirement payments. One gets back out what one pays in. To cut SS or Medicare premiums proportional to income would be wildly unfair and just another case of income redistribution.
Not so with federal income tax.
Also, this discussion was federal income tax and tax breaks.
Name one thing the goverment has ever taken over and NOT fvcked it up?...I'll be damned if I want them scewing with the health care system.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
In theory. I'm certainly not banking on it which is why I won't ever pay them. The bottom line amused, and you know this owning your own biz, is tax incidence in the USA is for the most part flat. You get exclusions and deductions, to carry out your biz joe six pack worker does'nt get to "carry out his business" of working. Cars, entertainment, and stuff thats open for interpretation.
All taxes arn't progessive, wage income certainly is! Some are in fact regressive. Sales tax, Property, Payroll (aka SS which stops at 89.5K) Excise taxes all hit the poor/middle class disproportionatly so. That the whole tax system is "progessive" as a whole is very debatable... If you all are going to bitch about the tax system least paint an accurate picture and stop paying attention to marginal tax rates only. We have to look at all three components (exclusions, deductions, and all tax rates) to get the full picture of just how much anyone is really paying as a percentage of their wealth/income. EX Someone with 55 million in income pays only .004% in payroll while someone with 55K in income pays 13.5% in payroll taxes. Is that fair?
Honestly if they had a flat tax rate I think it would be more fair which is why I'm an advocate..course all income should be included.. no Norquest dream of capital gets a free ride and only workers pay taxes. My personal example leads me to hold this view I pay less in taxes now making signifigantly more than I did when single since my source of income at the time combined with tax disposition would only allowed me to file 1040A with the standard deduction.
All taxes arn't progessive, wage income certainly is! Some are in fact regressive. Sales tax, Property, Payroll (aka SS which stops at 89.5K) Excise taxes all hit the poor/middle class disproportionatly so. That the whole tax system is "progessive" as a whole is very debatable... If you all are going to bitch about the tax system least paint an accurate picture and stop paying attention to marginal tax rates only. We have to look at all three components (exclusions, deductions, and all tax rates) to get the full picture of just how much anyone is really paying as a percentage of their wealth/income. EX Someone with 55 million in income pays only .004% in payroll while someone with 55K in income pays 13.5% in payroll taxes. Is that fair?
Honestly if they had a flat tax rate I think it would be more fair which is why I'm an advocate..course all income should be included.. no Norquest dream of capital gets a free ride and only workers pay taxes. My personal example leads me to hold this view I pay less in taxes now making signifigantly more than I did when single since my source of income at the time combined with tax disposition would only allowed me to file 1040A with the standard deduction.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
Everyday I go out to my mailbox, and there in it is all kinds of stuff sent to me by all kinds of people. Every year, my mother sends me birthday card with a $20 in it. In 15 years since I left home, my birthday card has never failed to arrive. Something else that never fails to arrive are bills from my creditors
, bank statements, magazine's, and enough junk mail over the years to sink a battleship. I occasionally use "Express Mail" -- which sends to PO boxes, unlike FedEx -- and costs less. I've never had a item sent by "Express Mail" fail to arrive, the next day, just like it was supposed to.So I don't know what you're talking about. I've heard conservatives complain about the post office, I've never had any bad experience with it. Hell, I wish they'd lose some of the sh1t that they can reliably be counted on to deliver.
"The check is in the mail" is a lie. So is "I never got it."
And we all know how you conservatives love punitive government agencies like the military, prison system, law enforcement... you guys never saw a spending bill on those you did'nt like and hold them in high esteem maybe even think they are effecient. Again I don't know what you're talking about. Any large corp is more cluster fuksed than our government... Call Dell sometime for support. Or your insurance company for an MRI
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: mwtgg
Damn those rich people getting more of their money back. (Congress passed those tax cuts, not Bush.)
Originally posted by: russianpower
So if it isn't in the consitution we shouldn't enforce or allow it.?
In my case I believe everyone should have health care.
No, and SS shouldn't have been started. What are you getting at?
Nice Spin and Bull ove, Congress passed Bush's Tax cut for the wealthy Agenda.
Ah yes, SS is not in the Constitution so should just shut it down completely now and re-distrube all the money to the wealthy right???
That's what is going to happen anyway. <shrugs>
You are such a fool. What is with your intense hatred of the rich? I guess you're just jealous that you couldn't "win life's lottery", eh?
Originally posted by: mwtgg
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: mwtgg
Damn those rich people getting more of their money back. (Congress passed those tax cuts, not Bush.)
Originally posted by: russianpower
So if it isn't in the consitution we shouldn't enforce or allow it.?
In my case I believe everyone should have health care.
No, and SS shouldn't have been started. What are you getting at?
Nice Spin and Bull ove, Congress passed Bush's Tax cut for the wealthy Agenda.
Ah yes, SS is not in the Constitution so should just shut it down completely now and re-distrube all the money to the wealthy right???
That's what is going to happen anyway. <shrugs>
You are such a fool. What is with your intense hatred of the rich? I guess you're just jealous that you couldn't "win life's lottery", eh?
Never said I wasn't fool. Must be anyway since as you so pointed out that I am not rich.
The Rich used to be good upstanding citizens that helped America be strong. Now they just grab up all the greed that they possible could ever spend in their lifetime while also applying power in a way that tears down the pillars that were the strength of the U.S. as well. Don't blame me that they suck now.
:music: Socializing medicine implies completely reworking a lot of laws and economic systems. Not possible at present seeing that lawyers have this country by the balls.
- Mar 20, 2000
- 102,407
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which is why i prefer that there be two different terms for classic and modern liberalism, since they obviously aren't the same thing.
and not counting payroll taxes like SS and medicare as taxes is just silly. of course they are taxes (being coerced payments to the government). if you don't lump them in with federal income taxes you have something to push.
and dave said 'tax,' not 'federal income tax in specific and only'
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
That's pretty much the crux of it. People would have to get real desperate, jobs keep moving to china it won't be long, before such a system is instituted. People vote thier pocketbook, and since almost everyone still has insurance there is no screaming need yet.
I hav'nt voted what's the score BTW?
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