For U.S Citizens Only: Do you support universal health care

[mwtgg]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Never said I wasn't fool. Must be anyway since as you so pointed out that I am not rich.

The Rich used to be good upstanding citizens that helped America be strong. Now they just grab up all the greed that they possible could ever spend in their lifetime while also applying power in a way that tears down the pillars that were the strength of the U.S. as well. Don't blame me that they suck now.

what fantasy world have you been living in? if anything, as a group, the rich are nicer now than they have ever been.

I guess the billions Bill Gates donates isn't enough.

 

[yllus]

You know, for all the hysteria the media purports about health care in Canada, we actually have a very good system in place. True, when the really rich get sick they fly into the States for the best-you-can-get care. That's not to say hospitals in, say, Toronto aren't top-notch. We do still have excellent universities to educate doctors, top-end medical equipment and all the works. Take a look at the Canadian Hospital Report 2001: Acute Care.

I don't think universal healthcare would work in the United States. It's a large financial burden for us Canadians where it's incalculably easier to manage with ten times less the population you folks have. It would be a complete disaster down south.

 

[sao123]

Socialism is the way of the future. Make the world a better place, a utopia.
Eventually we will have a world where there is no money. A world where there is no social status classes. No gap between the haves and the have nots. Everyone works who can (mandatory employment of some type). Everyone who cant is provided for by those who can. Kill off all the american capitalist nazi's who only think about gaining all the wealth and possessions they can. Selfishness and Laziness are capital crimes punishable by death.

 

[mwtgg]

Originally posted by: sao123
Socialism is the way of the future. Make the world a better place, a utopia.
Eventually we will have a world where there is no money. A world where there is no social status classes. No gap between the haves and the have nots. Everyone works who can (mandatory employment of some type). Everyone who cant is provided for by those who can. Kill off all the american capitalist nazi's who only think about gaining all the wealth and possessions they can. Selfishness and Laziness are capital crimes punishable by death.

Coercion and pipe dreams won't make the world a better place. However, you killing yourself will -- at least temporarily.

 

[Zebo]

Pretty good link.

http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf

Shows we pay at least 2x more and get much less than all other industrial nations. Not only that only 40% are happy with our system while danish are 91% happy...

Socialism indeed is the wave of future, like Star Trek, As I said eariler socio-capitalistic government method actually works, the far right hates for you to point it out, they really hate people like the Swedes and Nords who are *rich* and have practiced socio-capitalism for 70 years.... What is ripping America apart is the fact that the capitalists have fought tooth and nail to NOT make the real leap to such a system - instead giving half-hearted attempts..This is what's ripping America apart socially and economically. As I alwasy say, why should you care about a society that does'nt care about you?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: mwtgg

Originally posted by: sao123
Socialism is the way of the future. Make the world a better place, a utopia.
Eventually we will have a world where there is no money. A world where there is no social status classes. No gap between the haves and the have nots. Everyone works who can (mandatory employment of some type). Everyone who cant is provided for by those who can. Kill off all the american capitalist nazi's who only think about gaining all the wealth and possessions they can. Selfishness and Laziness are capital crimes punishable by death.

Coercion and pipe dreams won't make the world a better place. However, you killing yourself will -- at least temporarily.

Coercion huh?

I turn this question around on you, why does anyone 'deserve' the right to the sweat and labor of your fellow citizen at poverty wages? What gave the vanderbilts the right to millions of acres of our land? There is no moral reason for it. Nor is the answer because it's what the 'free market' has determined. There is no 'free market' utopia unles you go back to viking times where i take what I want cause I'm bigger and stronger. It's just a construct for simple minds that can't or won?t comprehend the truth: the powerful exploit the powerless. Those with the gold/capital make the playing feild with legal construct.

The simple answer is because they can get away with it. People on the low rung of society are basically powerless against those pulling the strings, they have to eat. I say basically because we still do have a democracy, if the people want it. In a democracy the people, not capital, decides how society is structured. If they determine every worker deserves a 25$ an hour and health care, there is no logical reason to think it can't be implemented.

 

[bobsmith1492]

Regardless, America is a free country. There is no one who 'pulls the strings'; if you want to advance through society, you can. It's called entrepreneurship. You sound like the old 'class warfare' communists of the fifties, and it just doesn't fly.

 

[Brutuskend]

Originally posted by: FoBoT
no way, that isn't in the constitution

leave that kind of crap to communist/socialist countries

I hope my sarcasm meter is on the fritz. :Q

 

[Krk3561]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Pretty good link.

http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf

Shows we pay at least 2x more and get much less than all other industrial nations. Not only that only 40% are happy with our system while danish are 91% happy...

Socialism indeed is the wave of future, like Star Trek, As I said eariler socio-capitalistic government method actually works, the far right hates for you to point it out, they really hate people like the Swedes and Nords who are *rich* and have practiced socio-capitalism for 70 years.... What is ripping America apart is the fact that the capitalists have fought tooth and nail to NOT make the real leap to such a system - instead giving half-hearted attempts..This is what's ripping America apart socially and economically. As I alwasy say, why should you care about a society that does'nt care about you?

Yes, the economies of Sweden and Norway are such international juggernauts.

Capitalism encourages entrepreneurship, innovation, and risk taking. Its what allows the US to be a leader in productivity and in technology in the world.

 

[Quasmo]

Originally posted by: Mo0o
no, it will drag down the quality of care

ABSOLUTELY!!!

 

[kogase]

Originally posted by: Brutuskend

Originally posted by: FoBoT
no way, that isn't in the constitution

leave that kind of crap to communist/socialist countries

I hope my sarcasm meter is on the fritz. :Q

He's (FoBoT is) being completely serious.

 

[kogase]

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: Zebo
Pretty good link.

http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf

Shows we pay at least 2x more and get much less than all other industrial nations. Not only that only 40% are happy with our system while danish are 91% happy...

Socialism indeed is the wave of future, like Star Trek, As I said eariler socio-capitalistic government method actually works, the far right hates for you to point it out, they really hate people like the Swedes and Nords who are *rich* and have practiced socio-capitalism for 70 years.... What is ripping America apart is the fact that the capitalists have fought tooth and nail to NOT make the real leap to such a system - instead giving half-hearted attempts..This is what's ripping America apart socially and economically. As I alwasy say, why should you care about a society that does'nt care about you?

Yes, the economies of Sweden and Norway are such international juggernauts.

Regardless of their economical position as a whole in the world today, Sweden and Norway have, overall, the highest standards of living in the world today. That's more important than winning a "who has the most money" contest.

 

[Brutuskend]

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: Brutuskend

Originally posted by: FoBoT
no way, that isn't in the constitution

leave that kind of crap to communist/socialist countries

I hope my sarcasm meter is on the fritz. :Q

He's (FoBoT is) being completely serious.

Whoa is me.

Too bad one can't pick the country in which they are to be born....

 

[mwtgg]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: mwtgg

Originally posted by: sao123
Socialism is the way of the future. Make the world a better place, a utopia.
Eventually we will have a world where there is no money. A world where there is no social status classes. No gap between the haves and the have nots. Everyone works who can (mandatory employment of some type). Everyone who cant is provided for by those who can. Kill off all the american capitalist nazi's who only think about gaining all the wealth and possessions they can. Selfishness and Laziness are capital crimes punishable by death.

Coercion and pipe dreams won't make the world a better place. However, you killing yourself will -- at least temporarily.

Coercion huh?

I turn this question around on you, why does anyone 'deserve' the right to the sweat and labor of your fellow citizen at poverty wages? What gave the vanderbilts the right to millions of acres of our land? There is no moral reason for it. Nor is the answer because it's what the 'free market' has determined. There is no 'free market' utopia unles you go back to viking times where i take what I want cause I'm bigger and stronger. It's just a construct for simple minds that can't or won?t comprehend the truth: the powerful exploit the powerless. Those with the gold/capital make the playing feild with legal construct.

The simple answer is because they can get away with it. People on the low rung of society are basically powerless against those pulling the strings, they have to eat. I say basically because we still do have a democracy, if the people want it. In a democracy the people, not capital, decides how society is structured. If they determine every worker deserves a 25$ an hour and health care, there is no logical reason to think it can't be implemented.

Excuse me, but what he said is essentially "work or die".

What are "poverty wages"?

I have a feeling that sao123 is one of those disgruntled "have nots".

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: bobsmith1492
Regardless, America is a free country. There is no one who 'pulls the strings'; if you want to advance through society, you can. It's called entrepreneurship. You sound like the old 'class warfare' communists of the fifties, and it just doesn't fly.

Well of course thanks to redistrubitve programs Democrates set up which was opposed by guess who? That?s right, the conservatives.

Some of thousands of examples? Your education to even get your job, workplace standards which insured benefits and decent pay so you can even have the capital start a business, loan programs like the SBA to start your business and even the banking system itself which can not discriminate anymore. Hell the right back in the day supported the violent suppression of early efforts of industrial workers to unionize. Union? get your head cracked.

No I don't like communism, you're just replacing one yolk for another, But pure capitalism is'nt perfect either because when dealing with a landless and destitute workforce, owners tend to "get it all" by thier control of capital. It's happened before you know..like 1000's of times some notible examples are French revolution...even the American revolution and again post robber barren era.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: mwtgg

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: mwtgg

Originally posted by: sao123
Socialism is the way of the future. Make the world a better place, a utopia.
Eventually we will have a world where there is no money. A world where there is no social status classes. No gap between the haves and the have nots. Everyone works who can (mandatory employment of some type). Everyone who cant is provided for by those who can. Kill off all the american capitalist nazi's who only think about gaining all the wealth and possessions they can. Selfishness and Laziness are capital crimes punishable by death.

Coercion and pipe dreams won't make the world a better place. However, you killing yourself will -- at least temporarily.

Coercion huh?

I turn this question around on you, why does anyone 'deserve' the right to the sweat and labor of your fellow citizen at poverty wages? What gave the vanderbilts the right to millions of acres of our land? There is no moral reason for it. Nor is the answer because it's what the 'free market' has determined. There is no 'free market' utopia unles you go back to viking times where i take what I want cause I'm bigger and stronger. It's just a construct for simple minds that can't or won?t comprehend the truth: the powerful exploit the powerless. Those with the gold/capital make the playing feild with legal construct.

The simple answer is because they can get away with it. People on the low rung of society are basically powerless against those pulling the strings, they have to eat. I say basically because we still do have a democracy, if the people want it. In a democracy the people, not capital, decides how society is structured. If they determine every worker deserves a 25$ an hour and health care, there is no logical reason to think it can't be implemented.

Excuse me, but what he said is essentially "work or die".

What are "poverty wages"?

I have a feeling that sao123 is one of those disgruntled "have nots".

I don't know take away minium wage, cobra, etc we'll find out.

 

[sao123]

I have a feeling that sao123 is one of those disgruntled "have nots".

While, I am not one of the upper middle class of america, I have more than enough to survive and be content.

You sir are the type of person who would rather see other people suffer in need while you collect an overabundance of possessions and wealth. Rather than a society where everyone has everything they need, and equally possibly a few of the nicer pleasures in life. Like the rich man of today, You choose to supress everyone who does not live up to your standards. Those who are not as gifted, smart, and fortunate as you in the name of your own selfish personal gain.

Excuse me, but what he said is essentially "work or die".

Since you are opposed to programs such as unified health care, social security, welfare, and all associated programs, arent you saying the same thing?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: sao123

Excuse me, but what he said is essentially "work or die".

Since you are opposed to programs such as unified health care, social security, welfare, and all associated programs, arent you saying the same thing?

No thats the problem. You can even work and die. See the very poor in this country do get free health care, natually the middle and upper class have healthcare plans and the real rich simply pay cash at mayo... It's the working poor who have to make chioces like "do I get my heart medication or feed my children/pay rent with the little money I have?"

 

[sao123]

It's the working poor who have to make chioces like "do I get my heart medication or feed my children/pay rent with the little money I have?"

No-one should be forced to make this choice. Under any circumstances.
And this is the exact problem. These people are often the most overworked and underpaid people. many holding 2 jobs just to get by. And they believe (rightfully so) that they are being screwed. So they either choose to not work so they can be like the unworking poor. Or are often motivated to try to cheat the system. These are the people a socialistic society was meant to protect.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Chaotic42

Originally posted by: CheesePoofs
If we didn't have Bush as president we'd probably have the money to institute this, because he wouldn't have blown the fed's money on tax cuts to the rich and on Iraq (where we have spent many billions) That money would have been much better spent instituting a universal health care system.

We spend $1.79 trillion per year on healthcare as it is. The money spent on Iraq would not have instituted a universal healthcare system for most states.

We spend on average $6,167/person/year on healthcare (averaged over the entire population), and not everyone gets good care. Imagine what the highest level of care would cost.

Our 2004 estimated GDP is $10.99 trillion. We spend about 16.3% of our GDP on healthcare as it is. Where would this extra money come from?

You think if government managed it we'd pay that much? Hell no, Just like Lockheed can't say "OK D.O.D. stealth bomber is 4B"..Instead Governemnt comes back and says "nope we are paying X" or "Boeing is cheaper" Happens all the time. It's called price control, buying power and competive bidding. (The boys at Halibuton is an exception to the normal rule) If done right everyone can be happy, realise a profit, and costs can be lowered. Right now, the government not only does'nt encourage lower costs they accually increase costs by protecting companies monopolistic right to whatever margins they want to charge with long term patent laws and exclusive right to make drugs. They protect hospitals, doctors and all health care professionals high costs by sanctioning private orgs like AMA as exclusive grantors of accredidation, which in turn like any union would do, limits the work force and keeps salaries high and cost is passed to us. How many medical schools have opened in the last 20 yrs dispite burgening population growth?

You're right we spend 2x more per capita than any other industrail nation. Pretty sad state considering we get poor care (HMO's anyone?) and many have none. I'm still waiting for proof we have the best care since any objective study says otherwise. One area we do rank number one in is "responsiveness" however as they say "devils in the details" since there are millions w/o care getting zero "response"
http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf

Natually we get into a half-hearted attempt like paying full retail price, keeping all the layers and middle men who have nothing to do with care we are doomed to fail like Tenncare. But done right istead of paying $6000 percapita for health care we could pay under $3000 just like every other of the top 15 nations have shown in report linked.

Hell even if you have great health insurance you should be pissed at how much we are getting raked over the coals compared to our first world brothers ... 6k vs 3k per year? hello.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Zebo
You're right we spend 2x more per capita than any other industrail nation. Pretty sad state considering we get poor care (HMO's anyone?) and many have none.

what's wrong with managed care? people tend to love kaiser permanente.

 

[ElFenix]

according to NEJM 349, no. 8 (2003) pg 768-775, the administrative costs (paper pushing) of the US medical care industry, were 'at least' $294.3 billion in 1999. that is about 24% of total spending that year. and that figure does not include the time and costs patients bear in choosing a health plan and making claims. that is fscking staggering.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Zebo If they determine every worker deserves a 25$ an hour and health care, there is no logical reason to think it can't be implemented.

because very soon that $25 an hour would be the equivalent of $7 an hour or whatever they're making now. you can't change real buying power by dictating a nominal wage.

 

[randumb]

no...too expensive

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Zebo
You're right we spend 2x more per capita than any other industrail nation. Pretty sad state considering we get poor care (HMO's anyone?) and many have none.

what's wrong with managed care? people tend to love kaiser permanente.

What's wrong? The Accountants instead of Doctors are deciding what medical treatments are needed. Then they are protected for the law when they fusk up and kill someone if the accountant was wrong.

They like to cherry pick thier stats of efficacy compared to PPOs but I've had both and definity prefer a PPO dispite having to pay signifigantly more (20% & $500 deductable)