For U.S Citizens Only: Do you support universal health care

[n0cmonkey]

I support public funded healthcare for all individuals under 16.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
I support public funded healthcare for all individuals under 16.

I don't and I have 4 kids under 16.

 

[yoda291]

I don't believe uncle sam should foot the bill for healthcare.

But I also think that healthcare is way way way expensive.

 

[Electric Amish]

I would support it. Not free, of course. You'd have to pay for it like you do now. It would just be regulated and managed by a division of the government.

 

[RaiderJ]

Originally posted by: Mo0o
no, it will drag down the quality of care

People who bring up Canadian healthcare always leave out its drawbacks - poorer quality service and LONG wait times.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: JDub02
nope .. it's called get a job that provides health care .. there are plenty of them.

or just get catastrophic heath care (not expensive) and pay for the small stuff out of your pocket .. it's tax deductible

Uh, you're kidding right? Here's a story...

I worked 18+ years for the same company. Due to poor management decisions the company went bankrupt and was purchased by a much larger company that wanted only the customers and one of the 5 manf facilities. They closed the 4 other sites and laid off hundreds of people, including me. Lucky for me it took me only a week to find a job. It didn't have benefits but in this job market it beat unemployment so I took it. I figured I could just pay for my own benefits, right? Not so easy. I tried getting decent, low cost coverage for myself and found out it's not that simple. I have a family history of heart disease and hypertension (dad's side) and cancer (mom's side). I also have a pre-existing condition of hypertension and am on medicine to control it. There's no such thing as low cost coverage for someone like me. Good companies simply will not write you a policy - at any cost. All I could get was catastrophic coverage at like $300/month. What good is that?

So to correct you, there's no such thing as "the small stuff" when it comes to medical expenses and there's no such thing as cheap health insurance, tax deductable or not.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: Electric Amish
I would support it. Not free, of course. You'd have to pay for it like you do now. It would just be regulated and managed by a division of the government.

Why would that be better than the current system of gov't oversight of private insurance.

All you're doing is taking away the government's impartiality, and thereby the key layer of regulation.

The only unregulated monopoly is a government monopoly.

 

[JulesMaximus]

HELL FVCKING NO!!!

 

[Staples]

Yes. Health insurance is ridiculously expensive.

And for all you guys who say it will bring down the quality, I am sure there will be private places you can go if you want to fork out a ton of money like I am forced to with insurance.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: So

Why would that be better than the current system of gov't oversight of private insurance.

little selection bias (like putting the office on the 3rd floor of a building without stairs)
no profit motive (believe it or not but medicare is very efficient)
no loss of billions (trillions?) of dollars of man hours every year because people fall through the cracks
no 51 different regulatory schemes to deal with

of course, if the govt does the same thing it did with medicare-d it wouldn't help anything. (the gov't is disallowed to use its market power to negotiate better rates for drugs under medicare-d, something private insurers generally do)

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Staples
Yes. Health insurance is ridiculously expensive.

please show how the gov't would save money vs the current system

 

[Staples]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Staples
Yes. Health insurance is ridiculously expensive.

please show how the gov't would save money vs the current system

It wouldn't. But I am willing to pay more in tax for it. It wouldn't be a hellava lot more if things were done efficiently.

You realize that medicare and medicade could be a lot cheaper for the gov than it is right now. Health insurance companies make deals to lower their prices but guess what the gov does? Absolutely nothing and that is why doctors charge them twice as much. If you are worried about paying taxes, then worry about fixing the problems we have now.

 

[Zebo]

of course, if the govt does the same thing it did with medicare-d it wouldn't help anything. (the gov't is disallowed to use its market power to negotiate better rates for drugs under medicare-d, something private insurers generally do)

Ya that's pretty stupid. Even hospital chains negotiate discounts w/ thier reps. But not the Federal boondoggle Bush signed.

Of course UHC could work -- every first world country but ours has it working. What happens when simple charity isn't enough - which it isn't in the USA? These countires are not socialist they are strongly capitalistic nations with socialistic undertones that works very well as proven they make up the top 20 richest nations on earth per capita. If socialistic undertones was such a scary thing, then why do they do so well? Hell why do wel do so well? What would the housing market look like w/o FHA/VA loans? How much futher would we drop in standardized testing w/o public school funding? Could it be that a socio-capitalistic government method actually works - and really what is ripping America apart is the fact that the capitalists have fought tooth and nail to NOT make the real leap to such a system - instead giving half-hearted attempts?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Staples

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Staples
Yes. Health insurance is ridiculously expensive.

please show how the gov't would save money vs the current system

It wouldn't. But I am willing to pay more in tax for it. It wouldn't be a hellava lot more if things were done efficiently.

You realize that medicare and medicade could be a lot cheaper for the gov than it is right now. Health insurance companies make deals to lower their prices but guess what the gov does? Absolutely nothing and that is why doctors charge them twice as much. If you are worried about paying taxes, then worry about fixing the problems we have now.

I don't blame him for worried about paying taxes. Working people pay way too much in taxes while passive income is exempt form SS, medicare, and other regressive taxes wage earners are strapped with. Capital gains income is exempt from those and taxed at a lower rate than earned income and is immue to progession. IMO a fair system would be a flat tax on all types of income or gains....say 15% no deductions no exclusions.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: So

Why would that be better than the current system of gov't oversight of private insurance.

little selection bias (like putting the office on the 3rd floor of a building without stairs)
no profit motive (believe it or not but medicare is very efficient)
no loss of billions (trillions?) of dollars of man hours every year because people fall through the cracks
no 51 different regulatory schemes to deal with

of course, if the govt does the same thing it did with medicare-d it wouldn't help anything. (the gov't is disallowed to use its market power to negotiate better rates for drugs under medicare-d, something private insurers generally do)

You do realize, of course that all this could still be done better by having more stringent government oversight and you wouldn't have to give in to an unregluated system that could easily collapse into an orgy of wasted money like so many government boondoggles.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: Longkid
i like the idea, but i doubt US could properly institute it

 

[gutharius]

Why not? I mean today we already have it through bankruptcies of people who cannot pay their medical bills. These costs are just passed on to you an I joe citizen after that anyways. might as well make a institutional system that everyone pays into and everyone has access too and quit with the high cost leading to bankruptcy malarky.

 

[Zepper]

Any form of socialism is unAmerican! If you like socialism, there are plenty of countries that will accomodate you: Canada is just a short hop, then there is most of Europe. Just remember, you can't actually become a full citizen in any of them... The US of A is the only country in the world that allows full citizenship to immigrants.

.bh.

 

[Ornery]

Look, it's simple. As it is, I can opt out of health care if I want to. If you clowns get National Health Care passed, I won't be able to do that. How many of you would handle your own retirement savings, instead of using Social Security, if you had that option? Does that make it a little more clear why I won't support another nanny state, government program? :|

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Staples

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Staples
Yes. Health insurance is ridiculously expensive.

please show how the gov't would save money vs the current system

It wouldn't. But I am willing to pay more in tax for it. It wouldn't be a hellava lot more if things were done efficiently.

You realize that medicare and medicade could be a lot cheaper for the gov than it is right now. Health insurance companies make deals to lower their prices but guess what the gov does? Absolutely nothing and that is why doctors charge them twice as much. If you are worried about paying taxes, then worry about fixing the problems we have now.

I don't blame him for worried about paying taxes. Working people pay way too much in taxes while passive income is exempt form SS, medicare, and other regressive taxes wage earners are strapped with. Capital gains income is exempt from those and taxed at a lower rate than earned income and is immue to progession. IMO a fair system would be a flat tax on all types of income or gains....say 15% no deductions no exclusions.

if there are no deductions or exclusions then it isn't an income tax, it's a consumption tax.


i'm not worrying about paying taxes, i was wondering what the poster wanted to do about the 'ridiculously expensive' part of the health care system that he pointed out. turns out, he doesn't want to do anything that, in his view, would fix the problem he listed.


and actually, medicare+choice isn't really a money saver, and it has those negotiated pricing that the poster was talking about (medicare, on the other hand, pays a flat rate which is much lower than what a doctor charges a self-insured patient). any cost savings with medicare+choice are generally related to selection bias (putting the office for the company on the 3rd floor of a building without elevators. yes, it happened). and the private insurers that run medicare+choice are generally leaving the program because they can't make money on it.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Zepper
Any form of socialism is unAmerican! If you like socialism, there are plenty of countries that will accomodate you: Canada is just a short hop, then there is most of Europe. Just remember, you can't actually become a full citizen in any of them... The US of A is the only country in the world that allows full citizenship to immigrants.

.bh.

Unamerican huh? Guess you missed that part in the US constitution about Congress is given the right to "lay and collect taxes . . . to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States."? You're living in the wrong country if you don't like socialism, try mexico, or better yet some Afican countries with private armies and police squads and zero taxes or redistribution or "safty net".. We have some of the highest tax rates and redistribution in the world 2.4 trillion, it always goes up (especially when republicans are in charge) it's just a question of allocation. Do you want something back for the money you pay in or nothing? Even worse do you want your government, with your money, to engage in wars of agression (serbia, Iraq etc) and by proxy putting a fat bullseye on your back for only being a US citizen? I assume you want something if you ever went to a public school, used a county hospital, filed a police report or pretty much anything else paid for with tax dollars. Someday people will want more , like UHC, when they see zero return on investment due to crippling deficiet, cutting of benefits by employers, unaffordable plans, etc and will vote for some plan... Just has'nt reached critcal mass of uninsured yet. But make no mistake, not only do we have to power to institute such a plan, the original AMERICAN contsitution gives us that power, nothing "unamerican" about it except in your own mind.

The US of A is the only country in the world that allows full citizenship to immigrants.

Proof? I heard Canada was 4 years for full Citizenship, heard after reading a news report of GI's fleeing slavery in the United States.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Ornery
Look, it's simple. As it is, I can opt out of health care if I want to. If you clowns get National Health Care passed, I won't be able to do that. How many of you would handle your own retirement savings, instead of using Social Security, if you had that option? Does that make it a little more clear why I won't support another nanny state, government program? :|

Is that the only HC plan? I doubt it.Switzerland has a two tiered plan of public and private that seems to work real well. You can opt out or use public.

As for SS you don't really believe it's a "retirement plan" do you, god I hope not. Far from it. It's a paygo plan, meaning working generation pays for elderly and infirmed, which only about half pays for "retirees" the other half pays for crippled, retarded, blind etc who never earned a dime in thier life so hardy could accumulate retirement savings. Think of it as a welfare program for crippled and old. If you're banking on it to "retire" catfood is on isle 5. Since it pays virtually nothing and is just an anti-starvation measure for the most part.

 

[nCred]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Zepper

The US of A is the only country in the world that allows full citizenship to immigrants.

Proof? I heard Canada was 4 years for full Citizenship, heard after reading a news report of GI's fleeing slavery in the United States.

You can get full citizenship in almost every country after a few years..

 

[RabidMongoose]

Switzerland has a two tiered plan of public and private that seems to work real well. You can opt out or use public.

Do you have any more information about this system?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Amused


As for the military, it benefits us all equally and is called for specifically in the Constitution. It is one of the few things the federal government is actually chartered to tax and spend for.

It does'nt benefit me at all, in fact it puts me at greater risk. Soviet Union still has thier missles turned in my direction, not at Switzerlands. I take a worng turn in egypt while visiting pyramids my head will be chopped. As for contsitution "calling" for it. Ya they also call for general welfare.. its all in the interpretation, how much, from where, to where just like any tax and spend. Eitherway it's all slavery paying for something involuntarly.