For those who disagree with how the Bin Laden affair was handled...

[Hayabusa Rider]

Same thing as the person convicted for planning the original WTC bombing. And whatever information he has to offer, without torture, that much better.

The people like you arguing 'couldn't be done' might remember even the people who did it disagree - this was not a kill order but a kill or capture order.

If he had surrendered, he was to be taken into custody.

I don't know the nature of the order and it may have been an option to capture. Let's assume that's true. It's been said that Bin Laden was unarmed and removing him would have been a relatively simple matter. If that's the case why was he shot? Either the team which was on camera from my understanding disobeyed the order or live extraction wasn't possible. Assuming the SEALs were competent and aware and had this option, what basis do those who weren't there have for insisting that removing OBL was merely a matter of choice?

 

[Nemesis 1]

Wrong. Steel buildings commonly collapse during fires as steel weakens substantially after being exposed to temperatures above 1000F for over 10 minutes. The fire proofing on the steel only delayed the inevitable as office buildings are not designed to withstand flammable liquid fires where the BTU content is well over 3 times that of ordinary combustibles.

really . what temp does jet fuel burn at. Does it burn hot enough to Melt steel . The videos clearly show molten metal . I don't want to believe that our government did . JfK/Martin luther king/ 9/11 / But the magic bullet and the events around kings death and all the stuff available on 9/11.

The Biggest danger to this country is sheeple. Most of which are low middle income or poor people looking for government hand outs. Game is over . Others WHO don't need government aid are going after it. Its like the GOLD threads we have in these forums . We have people that bought gold early and than we have the name callers who offer nothing in a debate based on logic. But Us that seen gold going WAY higher . Took abuse from the people who think they know a thing or 2 about managing money .POOR POOR losers that can't see the light from the dark.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

really . what temp does jet fuel burn at. Does it burn hot enough to Melt steel . The videos clearly show molten metal . I don't want to believe that our government did . JfK/Martin luther king/ 9/11 / But the magic bullet and the events around kings death and all the stuff available on 9/11.

The Biggest danger to this country is sheeple. Most of which are low middle income or poor people looking for government hand outs. Game is over . Others WHO don't need government aid are going after it. Its like the GOLD threads we have in these forums . We have people that bought gold early and than we have the name callers who offer nothing in a debate based on logic. But Us that seen gold going WAY higher . Took abuse from the people who think they know a thing or 2 about managing money .POOR POOR losers that can't see the light from the dark.

Jet fuel burns around 1800F and steel strength greatly diminishes at high temperatures. The worse lies are the one's we tell ourselves.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

I just can't wait tell later this year. You will know terror like you have never known it befor . UP close and personnal

I'm shakin in my boots.


Make sure your suicide bomber belt is strapped on tight, you batshit crazy bastard



<< forwards thread to dept of Homeland security

 

[Kev]

Well remember, despite your trusted media STRIDENTLY repeating over & over & over & over . . . (nonterminating process) that he was behind 911,

in reality there is NO credible evidence he nor his organization nor his money nor his influence had any SHRED of connection to 911.

The USA populace is eagerly swallowing the incessantly droned-into-your-skull spin the media reiterates in EVERY message about him, forgetting about ever showing that to be true in the first place. (it's been said a million times so it bust be true? Bull shit logic 101).

David Ray Griffin has satisfied a hypercritical me that the preponderance of evidence points at Dick Cheny & whatever PNAC secret cabal he was participant in, as THEEEEE true masterminds who Originated the concept, Planned the project, and Managed execution to project completion (irregsardless of whatever external agencies (Mossad? Saudi Arabians? who the hell will ever truly know) got their hands dirty, and anyway to HELL with >3000 innocent lives, the Ends justified the Means. IN THEIR INSANE TWISTY MINDS.

Those mentally ill monsters! HOME GROWN, IT WAS AN INSIDE JOB!!!! They OPENLY PUBLISHED their idea for "American "hegemony" and "full-spectrum" dominance" of this entire planet. MONSTERS!!!!!

911 was ABSOLUTELY an inside job, Dick Chey at the helm, with the other looneys who signed onto the PNAC insanity he rabidly lived. Their names are in the 1st link in my other post below. God DAMNED monsterously evil Dick Cheny and the men in the shadows behind him hell bent years ahead of 911 who openly plotted taking the USA to war, shoving it down the USA citizens' throats with their INTENDED "new Pearl Harbor." God DAMNED Dick CHeny & his posse. (The insane ultra righties & still MORE insane grow-government-till-we-die lefties)

HERE IS THE TRUE STORY ON 911

It's nice that they let you out of the straight jacket for computer time.

 

[Modelworks]

Take the shot.
I'm also totally against the 1976 policy we started not to target enemy leaders. Think about something like Libya and how many lives could be saved.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I can't believe people are butt hurt abut this dirtbag being killed. He and people like him would rather slit the throats of the sympathizers than piss on them

There's one in every crowd and unfortunately, it seems the entire collective of those "ones" gravitate to AT P&N. From henceforth, those people will be known as the "Butthurt Brigade."

 

[Fern]

I have no problem whatsoever with how the operation was conducted.

But I am among those who believes it is quite obvious that we could have taken him alive. But I'm just as satisfied that we 'double tapped' him. Nor do I give a damn what the rest of the world may say.

Fern

 

[bfdd]

I would have did it pretty much exactly the same, except I WOULD release photos. I'd even setup a national Shoop Osama contest. Best shoop gets a ride in Air Force 1.

 

[bfdd]

Jet fuel burns around 1800F and steel strength greatly diminishes at high temperatures. The worse lies are the one's we tell ourselves.

These people have never worked with steel before, they're idiots. You don't even have to get steel all that fucking hot, it expands 1/1000 of an inch for every 500f it gets, it also gets FAR more pliable to work with. The hottest thing they've ever seen is a stove, they've never been around anything that's really hot.


very very basic physics here. as the molecules in the steel are excited by the heat they drift further apart, this lowers the tensile strength of the steel as the bonds between the molecules is weakened.

 

[Kanalua]

i would send a strongly worded letter, possibly certified mail, with return receipt. Let him know I knew he was served that letter, and that I was serious. Maybe another similar letter a week later if he didn't respond. And then a final one a week after that, maybe even threatening legal action if he didn't respond.

 

[Craig234]

I don't know the nature of the order and it may have been an option to capture.

People like Leon Panneta have given interviews.

Let's assume that's true. It's been said that Bin Laden was unarmed and removing him would have been a relatively simple matter. If that's the case why was he shot? Either the team which was on camera from my understanding disobeyed the order or live extraction wasn't possible. Assuming the SEALs were competent and aware and had this option, what basis do those who weren't there have for insisting that removing OBL was merely a matter of choice?

That's where we can only speculate, other than being told a couple things:

One a very vague statement that he 'resisted', the other that he might have been taken alive 'if he put his hands up and surrendered immediately'.

Sounds like almost anything but putting his hands up could be viewed as ok to shoot. In fact, I've heard nothing that there was any preference for not shooting.

 

[bfdd]

There wasn't a capture order because we didn't have to capture him. We have all of his intel from his computers. Why feed and shelter his piece of shit ass, when everything we think we want is right there in the corner with easy access? Shoot the dude and get it over with. Much easier mess to clean up and deal with, than keeping some fool and spending even MORE money trying to get any sort of info out of him or trying him.

We as a nation decided OBL had to die the moment the towers went down. The decision to kill our enemies was made long before they became our enemies.

 

[etrigan420]

I have no problem whatsoever with how the operation was conducted.

But I am among those who believes it is quite obvious that we could have taken him alive. But I'm just as satisfied that we 'double tapped' him. Nor do I give a damn what the rest of the world may say.

Fern

:thumbsup: Nod.

*Could* we have taken him alive? Probably. More than likely. Almost definitely. SEAL's do what they are ordered to do.

*Should* we have taken him alive? Who the fuck knows? We can conjecture until the cows come home, but the fact remains that Geronimo is no more...and I'm not really that upset about it. :shrug:

 

[SparkyJJO]

1) You see this is your problem . The overwhelming evidance says it was an inside job .

No it doesn't. Prove it.

I watched the event live and any others who did had to have seen that other plane right after the first hit. Fly by the screen (Your rightside) and none said anything about it . I was In shock when I seen that plane. It flew out of site but 5 mins latter it came back on screen your left side. and struck the second building.

I saw the whole thing live too. The plane did NOT fly around one building and come back later to hit the other one. IT HIT THE FREAKIN' BUILDING. 2 planes, 2 buildings. One, BOOM. Later, the second, BOOM.

3) When the first building fell into its own footprint I said to self Thats not right. Than the second one did the same thing I thought what the freak is this . When BBC reported that Building seven went down befor it actually went down as you could clearly see it up in the background I thought what the hells going on . Than when it fell in its own footprint . I new who did what .

They are DESIGNED that way.

If you were designing a skyscraper, would you design it that in the event of compromised structural integrity that it fall within its footprint as much as possible, to do minimal collateral damage, or make it just simply fall over so it destroys several blocks?

I will not do jury duty. As its Gods job to judge not mine. I just won't do it. rather go to jail . Judge not least ye be judged according to your own judgement.

So according to your logic, we shouldn't have judges, juries, nothing - we should have no judicial system. So criminals should roam free? What?

Do you call yourself a Christian? As a Christian myself, I'm calling you to WAKE UP. You've got things all wrong dude, you're pulling a few verses from Scripture all out of context. Please, read it again, in context.

 

[gevorg]

Let's assume you were in charge. You know where Bin Laden is, or you are fairly certain, enough to engage in an op.


This isn't a situation in a vacuum, so here are your constraints. You cannot move him by diplomatic means. You cannot force others to take action. Commitment to getting OBL alive will most likely result in failure. Bin Laden is a proven menace still connected to Al Qaeda and there is no reason that he's not actively involved planning terrorist attacks.

What do you do? Do you pretend he isn't there or do you take action? The ISI doesn't care about international opinion. He continues on as he has or he is eliminated by us. If you insist on live removal the team will most likely die and our failure worsens the situation incalculably.

What isn't relevant to this question:

US history- Bringing up past events. Don't even bother. It doesn't answer the question.

9/11- Revenge or justice or whatever you think it is doesn't matter. I am purposefully considering the threat that Bin Laden currently poses. "He deserved it" is also completely irrelevant.

Principles of conscience- You do not have that luxury of doing anything other than what you rationally consider best for the US, not soothing your ego.

You are faced with acting or not. Given the constraints the world places upon you, what do you do and how do you justify your actions to the American public, who you are answerable to?

Go.

Your given constraints do lead to a kill, IMHO, but based on the publicly known circumstances, killing OBL right away was too easy since he was in a known compound for weeks. Capturing OBL and interrogating him for various Al Qaeda info would been very very valuable (and you have any torture/drug method at your disposal). For such a high profile enemy, you could use satellites to monitor every living thing in the vicinity, use some scentless gas to put everyone in sleep in OBL compound (like in Moscow theater hostage crisis), plus any other highend military techniques that we have no idea about.

If OBL was accidentally spotted by a sniper who had less then a minute to decide what to do, then yes, obviously killing is the way to go.

 

[Lemon law]

Same thing except make sure there were no eye witnesses.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To some extent Hasp said a mouthful, because we left many eyewitness's behind who are now in Pakistani custody.

On one hand it explains why we do not need to release gory photo details to prove Osama is dead, but we ow can't stop those eye witness's from saying we shot an unarmed man.

In charity to the Obama CIA plan, going in its was almost inconceivable that Osama would not have a pile of guns by his side, but when it turned out he did not, its only apparent it was poor Obama and CIA planning that missed an improbable option in their planning.

 

[Zebo]

Well remember, despite your trusted media STRIDENTLY repeating over & over & over & over . . . (nonterminating process) that he was behind 911,

in reality there is NO credible evidence he nor his organization nor his money nor his influence had any SHRED of connection to 911.

The USA populace is eagerly swallowing the incessantly droned-into-your-skull spin the media reiterates in EVERY message about him, forgetting about ever showing that to be true in the first place. (it's been said a million times so it bust be true? Bull shit logic 101).

David Ray Griffin has satisfied a hypercritical me that the preponderance of evidence points at Dick Cheny & whatever PNAC secret cabal he was participant in, as THEEEEE true masterminds who Originated the concept, Planned the project, and Managed execution to project completion (irregsardless of whatever external agencies (Mossad? Saudi Arabians? who the hell will ever truly know) got their hands dirty, and anyway to HELL with >3000 innocent lives, the Ends justified the Means. IN THEIR INSANE TWISTY MINDS.

Those mentally ill monsters! HOME GROWN, IT WAS AN INSIDE JOB!!!! They OPENLY PUBLISHED their idea for "American "hegemony" and "full-spectrum" dominance" of this entire planet. MONSTERS!!!!!

911 was ABSOLUTELY an inside job, Dick Chey at the helm, with the other looneys who signed onto the PNAC insanity he rabidly lived. Their names are in the 1st link in my other post below. God DAMNED monsterously evil Dick Cheny and the men in the shadows behind him hell bent years ahead of 911 who openly plotted taking the USA to war, shoving it down the USA citizens' throats with their INTENDED "new Pearl Harbor." God DAMNED Dick CHeny & his posse. (The insane ultra righties & still MORE insane grow-government-till-we-die lefties)

HERE IS THE TRUE STORY ON 911

You mean besides him admitting to it on camera
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/binladen_10-29-04.html
Or dozens of written communiques.
http://nefafoundation.org//index.cfm?pageID=44

 

[Zebo]

Only problem I have with mission is he wasn't farmed in a secret prison till he died. Seems like we lost valuable intel. Sure you got HDD's and papers but much was in his head that needed extraction rather than venting.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Taking Bin Laden alive would have been political death on so many levels. The political, media, and International circus that would have ensued would have been unfathomable. Obama undoubtably understood this and I wouldn't be surprised at all that a kill on sight order was issued from the top for that very reason.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

really . what temp does jet fuel burn at. Does it burn hot enough to Melt steel . The videos clearly show molten metal . I don't want to believe that our government did . JfK/Martin luther king/ 9/11 / But the magic bullet and the events around kings death and all the stuff available on 9/11.

The Biggest danger to this country is sheeple. Most of which are low middle income or poor people looking for government hand outs. Game is over . Others WHO don't need government aid are going after it. Its like the GOLD threads we have in these forums . We have people that bought gold early and than we have the name callers who offer nothing in a debate based on logic. But Us that seen gold going WAY higher . Took abuse from the people who think they know a thing or 2 about managing money .POOR POOR losers that can't see the light from the dark.

See bolded above.

The biggest danger to this country is ignorance. Molten METAL != molten STEEL. In fact, you don't even know that the glowing conglomeration was even metal. It could have been any number of combined compounds subject to the high heat present in the debris. But keep it up with the conflation and misdirection. Fools will still be fooled because they want to be. It's why they are called fools in the first place.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

I hesitate to even humor the 9/11 truthers but their claim that the buildings were demo'd is just so easily debunked. The timing of events as is documented by video make the demo theory absolutely impossible.

The fact that so much time passed between the impact of the planes and the buildings collapse(point of alleged demo) means that thousands of people exited the building via the lower floors during that time period and hundreds of firemen went up and down the buildings yet not one person reports seeing any rigged explosives or detonation cables which would have had to been in place if the building were demo'd with explosives.

Also, watching the buildings collapse in slow motion it is obvious that the building fails at the floors where the planes struck as the top of the building begins collapsing while the lower floors remain solid until the top pancakes down on them. If the building had been demo'd with explosives the bottom floors would have failed first in an outward direction which did not happen.