PliotronX
Diamond Member
- Oct 17, 1999
- 8,883
- 107
- 106
Actually in shortened barrels, rifle rounds lose a lot of their energy. Velocity accounts for more energy than mass so when working with handgun length barrels and service calibers it's a good idea to stick with bullets that will dump more energy using a larger mass and without overpenetration, also benefit from larger permanent cavity performance.
Wow, I didn't even think of the CS factor, lol.
I'm 6' about 215lbs and I've been CC a Taurus P92 for years with a heavily modified Glock 17 on backup for suppressed work. While it is great against body armor the aftermarket choices in ammunition really open the possibilities up, a company called Elite Ammunition makes everything from classic ball rounds, to frangible rounds all the way to a round using the Barnes Varmint Grenade round.
As for being useless against flesh, you need to do some more research, ballistic gel tests have shown that depending on th ammunition used penetration is anywhere from 7-13 inches with wound tracts anywhere from 1.5-3" temporary with typically ~1" permanant wound tracks. In the US alone out of 8 or 9 law enforcement encounters there has been only one survivor who was struck in the hand and arm only and through a solid-core door. Single shot kills due to bullet placement has become the standard with this round.
Out of all you people slamming the round, how many of you own one or have fired one personally? CS does not count!
I'm 6' about 215lbs and I've been CC a Taurus P92 for years with a heavily modified Glock 17 on backup for suppressed work. While it is great against body armor the aftermarket choices in ammunition really open the possibilities up, a company called Elite Ammunition makes everything from classic ball rounds, to frangible rounds all the way to a round using the Barnes Varmint Grenade round.
As for being useless against flesh, you need to do some more research, ballistic gel tests have shown that depending on th ammunition used penetration is anywhere from 7-13 inches with wound tracts anywhere from 1.5-3" temporary with typically ~1" permanant wound tracks. In the US alone out of 8 or 9 law enforcement encounters there has been only one survivor who was struck in the hand and arm only and through a solid-core door. Single shot kills due to bullet placement has become the standard with this round.
Out of all you people slamming the round, how many of you own one or have fired one personally? CS does not count!
HannibalX
Diamond Member
- May 12, 2000
- 9,359
- 2
- 0
The 5.7x28mm cartridge is not a rifle cartridge, although it was based on one and shares some characteristics.
Overview.
Ballistics
In-Depth Review
Correct, it was designed to replace the high velocity 9mm round used in SMGs and has since been used in the handgun with great success.
SOFT body armor, anyway.
I have a feeling if AP rounds like this become more commonplace (ie., unbalanced bullets) then body armor manufacturers will design armor that induces bullets to tilt/rotate when they hit. Perhaps a layer of rigid polymer arranged like this: VVVV (with the V's pointing outward), which could deflect the bullet inducing a tumble before it penetrates.
I'm still waiting for the full suits of rigid armor like in Aliens. With the war, body armor manufacturers are coming up with new ways to create rigid yet sculpted plates so I don't think we're far from that reality actually. Not really an option for police on an everyday basis though!
BrunoPuntzJones
Lifer
- Feb 24, 2001
- 14,513
- 4
- 81
Neither does 7.62x25 which has been around half a century.
It just seems to me to be a case of having a good gun, but not having great ammo for it.
I'm all in favor of shot placement over bullet size, but there is a huge list of guns and cartridges I'd choose over a the FN 5.7
I have not personally fired one however. If you can keep it in the 10 ring and it shoots great for you, go for it
There's just better choices IMO.
Thats one of the main reasons I'm getting rid of it, just too heavy anymore, and it's not that big. From an intimidation standpoint it does the job quite well though, not to mention with the new barrel she's back into putting 5 rounds in the 10 ring at 20m so I've been incredibly happy with her.
Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Neither does 7.62x25 which has been around half a century.
It just seems to me to be a case of having a good gun, but not having great ammo for it.
I'm all in favor of shot placement over bullet size, but there is a huge list of guns and cartridges I'd choose over a the FN 5.7
I have not personally fired one however. If you can keep it in the 10 ring and it shoots great for you, go for it
There's just better choices IMO.
you honnestly seem to have a good handle on handguns so, if you don't mind my asking, why do you say there are better choices? I've CC one of the heaviest 9mm guns I've ever held and I've CC one of the lightest(glock 17) along with a .45 1911 for about 6 months just before a springfield XD .40 4" just before going back to my taurus for a while and now on to the 5-7.
I was VERY sceptical before buying one and was actually shopping the FN 9mm when I tried the 5.7mm and was shocked by it. Honestly it kicks about the same as a .380ACP in a heavier frame or a light weight .32, IMHO, but the stopping power is amazing for it's size, I'm not saying it's a .223 or 5.65 NATO because it's not, but I can honnestly say that given the selection between a 9mm, a .40 and the 5.7mm, I've got no reason not to go with the 5.7mm. It's so much easier to return to center and get another round off I've cut my three round tap time almost in half from my .45 fun gun and about 3/4 of my P92 or the XD.40. I'm confident in my shot placement enough that if I had one bullet left I'd be just as happy with the 5.7 as any of the competitors but, if I'm going to put out 3 rounds anyway, just in case, I'd like to do it as quickly as I can.
Oh, and to the matter of armor piercing, the SS195LF has no problems armor piercing and is available off the shelf here in AZ. That being said, I'll be carrying two clips of SS197, two clips of VarminTOR and two clips of S4 Super RapTOR when on duty just as my son does and has for some time.
Originally posted by: AndrewR
SOFT body armor, anyway.
I have a feeling if AP rounds like this become more commonplace (ie., unbalanced bullets) then body armor manufacturers will design armor that induces bullets to tilt/rotate when they hit. Perhaps a layer of rigid polymer arranged like this: VVVV (with the V's pointing outward), which could deflect the bullet inducing a tumble before it penetrates.
I'm still waiting for the full suits of rigid armor like in Aliens. With the war, body armor manufacturers are coming up with new ways to create rigid yet sculpted plates so I don't think we're far from that reality actually. Not really an option for police on an everyday basis though!
What your talking about has been tried in the form of "Dragon Skin" armor a while back and it never really got off the ground due to weight restriction as well as not being effective enough against true armor piercing rounds. Simple re-designs of soft body armor are called for in order to rectify the situation. The only hard plates I could really see being of any use would be carbon fiber plating w/ an acrylic sandwich between layers. Basically the same idea as a windshield but, instead of glass, using carbon fiber and making it a minimum of layers of carbon fiber with 4layers of acrylic between, and even that is going to be pretty heavy in conjunction with your standard kevlar vest.
Originally posted by: DerwenArtos12
Originally posted by: AndrewR
SOFT body armor, anyway.
I have a feeling if AP rounds like this become more commonplace (ie., unbalanced bullets) then body armor manufacturers will design armor that induces bullets to tilt/rotate when they hit. Perhaps a layer of rigid polymer arranged like this: VVVV (with the V's pointing outward), which could deflect the bullet inducing a tumble before it penetrates.
I'm still waiting for the full suits of rigid armor like in Aliens. With the war, body armor manufacturers are coming up with new ways to create rigid yet sculpted plates so I don't think we're far from that reality actually. Not really an option for police on an everyday basis though!
What your talking about has been tried in the form of "Dragon Skin" armor a while back and it never really got off the ground due to weight restriction as well as not being effective enough against true armor piercing rounds. Simple re-designs of soft body armor are called for in order to rectify the situation. The only hard plates I could really see being of any use would be carbon fiber plating w/ an acrylic sandwich between layers. Basically the same idea as a windshield but, instead of glass, using carbon fiber and making it a minimum of layers of carbon fiber with 4layers of acrylic between, and even that is going to be pretty heavy in conjunction with your standard kevlar vest.
Really, I might be remembering wrong, but I seem to remember an episode of Future Weapons on the discovery channel where they tested dragon skin armor, and it was able to withstand multiple rounds from an AR-15 (.223) and an AK-47 (7.62) on the same vest with no penetration, while 2 shots from either rifle were sufficient to penetrate the current military body armor. I can understand the weight aspect, as I have no idea what Dragon Skin weighs compared to existing body armor, but I was under the impression that it was significantly better than current armor in dealing AP ammo.
HannibalX
Diamond Member
- May 12, 2000
- 9,359
- 2
- 0
Mail Call also tested the Dragon Skin and it did significantly better than what the US Mil is currently using.
Here is the test.
Here is the test.
BrunoPuntzJones
Lifer
- Feb 24, 2001
- 14,513
- 4
- 81
Originally posted by: DerwenArtos12
Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Neither does 7.62x25 which has been around half a century.
It just seems to me to be a case of having a good gun, but not having great ammo for it.
I'm all in favor of shot placement over bullet size, but there is a huge list of guns and cartridges I'd choose over a the FN 5.7
I have not personally fired one however. If you can keep it in the 10 ring and it shoots great for you, go for it
There's just better choices IMO.
you honnestly seem to have a good handle on handguns so, if you don't mind my asking, why do you say there are better choices? I've CC one of the heaviest 9mm guns I've ever held and I've CC one of the lightest(glock 17) along with a .45 1911 for about 6 months just before a springfield XD .40 4" just before going back to my taurus for a while and now on to the 5-7.
I was VERY sceptical before buying one and was actually shopping the FN 9mm when I tried the 5.7mm and was shocked by it. Honestly it kicks about the same as a .380ACP in a heavier frame or a light weight .32, IMHO, but the stopping power is amazing for it's size, I'm not saying it's a .223 or 5.65 NATO because it's not, but I can honnestly say that given the selection between a 9mm, a .40 and the 5.7mm, I've got no reason not to go with the 5.7mm. It's so much easier to return to center and get another round off I've cut my three round tap time almost in half from my .45 fun gun and about 3/4 of my P92 or the XD.40. I'm confident in my shot placement enough that if I had one bullet left I'd be just as happy with the 5.7 as any of the competitors but, if I'm going to put out 3 rounds anyway, just in case, I'd like to do it as quickly as I can.
Oh, and to the matter of armor piercing, the SS195LF has no problems armor piercing and is available off the shelf here in AZ. That being said, I'll be carrying two clips of SS197, two clips of VarminTOR and two clips of S4 Super RapTOR when on duty just as my son does and has for some time.
Well you already named the epitome of carry guns, the G17
It's not that the 5.7 doesn't have "knock-down" power, as it handguns it's pretty moot. But what matters most is penetration and diameter. From what I've read, the 5.7 has the penetration, but not expansion.
Almost all modern handgun rounds at 9mm and up expand and penetrate close enough to each other where personal preference takes over. G17 wins in that category IMO. The G17 is too big for me. I keep a KelTec P11 which does 13 rounds in a 13oz package, and is about an inch thick.
Plus I don't know how great using a 5.7 would look in court to jurors who are told of it's bullet-proof vest, cop-killing rounds.
Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Originally posted by: DerwenArtos12
Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Neither does 7.62x25 which has been around half a century.
It just seems to me to be a case of having a good gun, but not having great ammo for it.
I'm all in favor of shot placement over bullet size, but there is a huge list of guns and cartridges I'd choose over a the FN 5.7
I have not personally fired one however. If you can keep it in the 10 ring and it shoots great for you, go for it
There's just better choices IMO.
you honnestly seem to have a good handle on handguns so, if you don't mind my asking, why do you say there are better choices? I've CC one of the heaviest 9mm guns I've ever held and I've CC one of the lightest(glock 17) along with a .45 1911 for about 6 months just before a springfield XD .40 4" just before going back to my taurus for a while and now on to the 5-7.
I was VERY sceptical before buying one and was actually shopping the FN 9mm when I tried the 5.7mm and was shocked by it. Honestly it kicks about the same as a .380ACP in a heavier frame or a light weight .32, IMHO, but the stopping power is amazing for it's size, I'm not saying it's a .223 or 5.65 NATO because it's not, but I can honnestly say that given the selection between a 9mm, a .40 and the 5.7mm, I've got no reason not to go with the 5.7mm. It's so much easier to return to center and get another round off I've cut my three round tap time almost in half from my .45 fun gun and about 3/4 of my P92 or the XD.40. I'm confident in my shot placement enough that if I had one bullet left I'd be just as happy with the 5.7 as any of the competitors but, if I'm going to put out 3 rounds anyway, just in case, I'd like to do it as quickly as I can.
Oh, and to the matter of armor piercing, the SS195LF has no problems armor piercing and is available off the shelf here in AZ. That being said, I'll be carrying two clips of SS197, two clips of VarminTOR and two clips of S4 Super RapTOR when on duty just as my son does and has for some time.
Well you already named the epitome of carry guns, the G17
It's not that the 5.7 doesn't have "knock-down" power, as it handguns it's pretty moot. But what matters most is penetration and diameter. From what I've read, the 5.7 has the penetration, but not expansion.
Almost all modern handgun rounds at 9mm and up expand and penetrate close enough to each other where personal preference takes over. G17 wins in that category IMO. The G17 is too big for me. I keep a KelTec P11 which does 13 rounds in a 13oz package, and is about an inch thick.
Plus I don't know how great using a 5.7 would look in court to jurors who are told of it's bullet-proof vest, cop-killing rounds.
I've got a G17, and a G34, and a G26. I've got nothing against glocks. As for expansion, in the stock rounds you're entirely right. Check out elite ammunition. They make a round for the 5.7 our of the barnes varmint grenade, has more expansion than you should ever need. I'm also looking at comissioning them to make some rounds for it out of the Barnes tripple shock round, should tear a decent hole in someone.
The KelTec P11 is a nice compact cc gun, and one I would not worry about carrying. I actually just bought my girlfriend a sig p232 .380ACP for self defense and I've got no problem assuming it'll do the job just fine.
It's already been said but, shot placement will affect the effectiveness and lethality of a shot more than caliber ever could(within reason .50bmg is lethal no matter where it hits) and I really don't think I'll be in court any time soon but, if I am, I don't see an issue with justifying my caliber selection to a jury, unless the guy was in body armor it makes to difference what caliber I used and if he's in body armor, I just got lucky.
Originally posted by: DerwenArtos12
Originally posted by: AndrewR
SOFT body armor, anyway.
I have a feeling if AP rounds like this become more commonplace (ie., unbalanced bullets) then body armor manufacturers will design armor that induces bullets to tilt/rotate when they hit. Perhaps a layer of rigid polymer arranged like this: VVVV (with the V's pointing outward), which could deflect the bullet inducing a tumble before it penetrates.
I'm still waiting for the full suits of rigid armor like in Aliens. With the war, body armor manufacturers are coming up with new ways to create rigid yet sculpted plates so I don't think we're far from that reality actually. Not really an option for police on an everyday basis though!
What your talking about has been tried in the form of "Dragon Skin" armor a while back and it never really got off the ground due to weight restriction as well as not being effective enough against true armor piercing rounds. Simple re-designs of soft body armor are called for in order to rectify the situation. The only hard plates I could really see being of any use would be carbon fiber plating w/ an acrylic sandwich between layers. Basically the same idea as a windshield but, instead of glass, using carbon fiber and making it a minimum of layers of carbon fiber with 4layers of acrylic between, and even that is going to be pretty heavy in conjunction with your standard kevlar vest.
No, Dragon Skin is not what I was talking about. Dragon Skin is essentially ceramic scale mail (or brigandine, I forget), and the armor plates themselves are not actually flexible, only the configuration is. The Dragon Skin plates are essentially made with the same process as the ballistic SAPI plates but are smaller. The armor does work to an extent but failed Army standards and also had significant environmental issues (degrades with heat and exposure to diesel, for instance).
What I was musing about is a new material designed specifically to induce tumble into these types of bullets (the 5.7mm) not a material to defeat them head-on like a ballistic plate. I have no idea if it's feasible, only that it seems like a plausible idea in my head!
Rigid armor research is ongoing and well funded by both the Army and the Air Force (presumably Navy/USMC, too, but I am not familiar with their efforts). However, the solutions that will work for combat troops or combat vehicles are not necessarily useful for law enforcement other than tactical units. I've never seen a normal patrol officer wearing ballistic plates.
Atomic Playboy
Lifer
- Feb 6, 2007
- 16,432
- 1
- 81
If I'm going to go that far I may as well just hold out for one of the new AR57s, though it's been over two years since first announced and we've still only seen two prototypes. In arizona I can legally own a fully automatic weapon with the proper permitting so, I just combine the AR57 upper with an M16 lower and the 50 round mags and have some real fun!
I like the P90/PS90 but, I've never found any real use for something of the size. Sure, I'm losing ~250FPS with the 5-7 barrel over the P90 and about another 150 from the PS90 but, it'll still kill ya. If I need something bigger the mini-14 should do just fine with the .223 rounds ripping out half again faster than the P90.
PliotronX
Diamond Member
- Oct 17, 1999
- 8,883
- 107
- 106
Well now that's interesting, thanks for posting. It is plainly visible the round does share some of the particularly effective tearing and tumbling of the .223 round.
Derwen, FTR my post was not meant to be pejorative, just informing of the prevailing knowledge as it is important to realize that LE use and SD can require different characteristics, but I am open minded. I am still having a difficult time picturing the round being more effective than a 230gr Ranger T, but I realize that it cannot be included in the same argument in the group of more conventional service calibers as it is designed much differently. The spitzer tip yielding more aerodynamic performance for one. From what you've said it does sound promising, so it's a shame it has not been met with widespread enthusiasm partly because of the bad press (anti-gunners, but what do they know) and laws surrounding it, also its lack of a big boom, the man in men preventing themselves from giving it a serious consideration in anything other than target shooting. The upside to this lack of recoil is as you've said, followup shots. It is impressive that the energy generated from this .22LR-weighted round is nearly that of the 9mm and that its probability of overpenetration is almost nonexistent.
In any case, your owning and operating of it does expand the market for which it does help its visibility. If it continues its track record of exceptional stopping power, I can imagine it catching on despite the size of the pistol. I have no doubt in FN's workmanship, nor the pistols ability to fire every pull. I hope that you never have to use it in a confrontation, but if you do, that it proves every bit as effective as you'd expect.
I don't know how many times I've blown on that dot over the years just to see what will happen...
Anyways, as I stated buried in one of my other posts my primary SD round for this gun is going to be a custom round built by Elite Ammunition called the VarminTOR which uses a Barnes Varmint Grenade bullet at the front of a rather hot load(don't have the exact spec.) As far as stopping power goes, something that can make a 10-15lb animal go *pop* should have a notable affect against a 2-legged varmint should one come sniffing up my tree. Check out this video of the bullet in action against an apple then some prairie dogs. The gun used for the prairie dog hunt is not the FN 5-7 however it is the same caliber bullet used.
EDIT: Video probably NSFW however, other content on same site is very NSFW, sorry.
Anyways, as I stated buried in one of my other posts my primary SD round for this gun is going to be a custom round built by Elite Ammunition called the VarminTOR which uses a Barnes Varmint Grenade bullet at the front of a rather hot load(don't have the exact spec.) As far as stopping power goes, something that can make a 10-15lb animal go *pop* should have a notable affect against a 2-legged varmint should one come sniffing up my tree. Check out this video of the bullet in action against an apple then some prairie dogs. The gun used for the prairie dog hunt is not the FN 5-7 however it is the same caliber bullet used.
EDIT: Video probably NSFW however, other content on same site is very NSFW, sorry.
Not my choice for self defense, but if your happy with it then by all means go ahead.
If I had the money I wouldnt mind owning a FiveseveN and a PS90, but for concealed carry I prefer my full size Springfield Armory 1911.
If I had the money I wouldnt mind owning a FiveseveN and a PS90, but for concealed carry I prefer my full size Springfield Armory 1911.
OP: if you're stuck on FN, consider the 40-9. I'm a huge fan of S&W .40.
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg19-e.htm
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg19-e.htm
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