Florida High School Shooting

[Pipeline 1010]

Stop attempting to equate armed teachers with professional security. This is ridiculous nonsense and you know it.

When armed teachers receive the same training as cops in police academy, then yes I will equate them. Where is your evidence of them causing harm/death to others? Do you have any? Where is your evidence that unarmed teachers = better than armed teachers? Actual evidence, please.

 

[fskimospy]

When armed teachers receive the same training as cops in police academy, then yes I will equate them. Where is your evidence of them causing harm/death to others? Do you have any? Where is your evidence that unarmed teachers = better than armed teachers? Actual evidence, please.

Again, the burden of proof is on you. Stop trying to shift it to other people, it’s childish.

If your argument is that teachers with guns are the equivalent of police officers then make that case. I’m sure we would all love to see it, and we would all love to make fun of you for saying something so stupid.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

I don’t think you understand how evidence works. Nobody has to DISPROVE your statement, you have to prove it. Empirical evidence already shows that increased gun availability leads to increased risk of gun homicide, so if you’re going to argue the opposite it’s on you.

This attempt to shift the burden of proof is transparent nonsense. You have the burden of proof as it’s your idea.

Why do politicians and banks and rich people protect themselves with people who have guns? If the richest and most powerful protect themselves with guns then why are they wrong?

 

[BoomerD]

Seems like teachers became teachers because they want to teach...if they wanted to become cops or armed security guards, they'd have chosen a different career path. Are the teachers who opt to carry going to be sent to firearms safety school, become range qualified, and well compensated for that extra duty/responsibility?

Why should any teacher be expected to put his/her life on the line for someone else's kids? THAT is not what they signed up for.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

If your argument is that teachers with guns are the equivalent of police officers then make that case.

Straw man. My argument is that teachers with guns can stop school shootings better that teachers without guns. I don't understand how anybody could dispute this.

I’m sure we would all love to see it, and we would all love to make fun of you for saying something so stupid.

Please. I've said many things far more stupid than this.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

Seems like teachers became teachers because they want to teach...if they wanted to become cops or armed security guards, they'd have chosen a different career path. Are the teachers who opt to carry going to be sent to firearms safety school, become range qualified, and well compensated for that extra duty/responsibility?

Why should any teacher be expected to put his/her life on the line for someone else's kids? THAT is not what they signed up for.

The option to be trained/armed is up to the individual teacher. They are not EXPECTED to do this any more than they are expected to place themselves between harm and their students. Yet many unarmed teachers have been killed heroically placing themselves between children and an active shooter. Do you have an issue with teachers who sacrificed themselves? Would you take issue with a teacher who might shoot back at the bad guy?

 

[jackstar7]

When armed teachers receive the same training as cops in police academy, then yes I will equate them. Where is your evidence of them causing harm/death to others? Do you have any? Where is your evidence that unarmed teachers = better than armed teachers? Actual evidence, please.

So you don't care that trained cops have an average accuracy of ~20% in a gunfight? You think more guns is always better than no guns?

Since your argument is based on your feelings, here is mine: no guns and teachers are trained in de-escalation and psychology so that they can stop things as they are happening, and potentially prevent them before they happen. I feel that's going to work WAY better than guns, because missing with words doesn't accidentally kill innocent kids.

 

[jackstar7]

Would you take issue with a teacher who might shoot back at the bad guy?

YES.
They could (and would most likely) miss.

Stop using your feelings and think things through on this. Maybe even do some research. Kids lives are at stake.

 

[glenn1]

Straw man. My argument is that teachers with guns can stop school shootings better that teachers without guns. I don't understand how anybody could dispute this.

Please. I've said many things far more stupid than this.

I think fskimospy and others can accept that premise as plausible (if unlikely) if you can in turn accept their premise as plausible that a policy of arming teachers may lead to unwanted consequences like innocents being shot, negligent discharges, and others. I also think most would agree that an armed guard at a school presents a much different deterrent and risk profile than armed teachers.

 

[umbrella39]

Just stopped into WTF did Wayne LaPierre just say today? Caught it on the radio on the way home. Is this moron insane? Does this daft twat realize that the portrait he paints of the school system in 2018 is a completely different world that when he went to school? Hell, when his kids went to school...

What's changed, Wayne, between then and now? If you say: Crazy People! You are full of shit. The thing that's changed is the fire power and the easy access to it. End of story. No more false equivalences, strawman, or any other logically fallacious attempt to end around the real problem will work any more.

LMFAO at the talking points you gun nuts have been sent out with along your marching orders!!! Pst, this ISN'T going to go over well with the vast majority of Americans. Heck, not going over very well with this liberal who enjoys my freedom to carry. But my freedoms end at your doorstep and that includes your school. My freedoms don't mean I get to pick and choose each and every firearm available to man. Just like most things in life, we have to be restricted on certain things. Sometimes a line does need to be drawn in the sand.

Yes WLP, we want to live in a world where our children NEED armed guards and teachers to defend themselves against your other guns. Listening to you today you are trying to convince your already over active fear center lowlifes that schools are now this boogeyman horror story that only guns can protect.

Why my conservative carrying brothers and sisters on the other side of the aisle can't see this bullshit for what it is is beyond me... As per usual, I hate getting lopped in with you gun nuts idiots. You sound like straight on full retards with your inane and broken "logic". Get your heads out of your asses before it's too late...

 

[fskimospy]

Straw man. My argument is that teachers with guns can stop school shootings better that teachers without guns. I don't understand how anybody could dispute this.

It’s already been disputed. Widespread availability of firearms in schools could most certainly cause more student deaths yearly than school shooters do. What happens when a kid freaks out and grabs a gun? What happens when a teacher thinks a shooting is happening and opens fire? What happens during a real shooting where someone starts firing with 18% accuracy? People have a bias towards preventing single large events and they don’t realize that a thousand small events put together are worse.

I’m not sure how many educators you know but I know a lot. I don’t know one that thinks arming teachers is a good idea.

 

[paperfist]

Straw man. My argument is that teachers with guns can stop school shootings better that teachers without guns. I don't understand how anybody could dispute this.



Please. I've said many things far more stupid than this.

If a teacher has a hand gun and the perp a semi automatic then they aren't going to defend anyone.

Then there's the scenario of multiple perps or a teacher going postal or the teacher with a gun being targeted first.

 

[fskimospy]

I think fskimospy and others can accept that premise as plausible (if unlikely) if you can in turn accept their premise as plausible that a policy of arming teachers may lead to unwanted consequences like innocents being shot, negligent discharges, and others. I also think most would agree that an armed guard at a school presents a much different deterrent and risk profile than armed teachers.

I think it is entirely plausible that an armed teacher can and will save the day sometime. I think in the aggregate introducing large numbers of firearms into schools will likely cause more net harm than good.

I also think that equating armed teachers to professional security is ridiculous.

 

[pauldun170]

Was this posted? Not keeping up with the thread...

Parkland, Florida (CNN)The school resource deputy at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, waited outside the school building as the shooting unfolded last week, officials said.

Scot Peterson never went in after taking a position on the west side of the building, Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel said at a Thursday afternoon news conference.
Peterson resigned after he was suspended without pay by Israel pending an internal investigation into his actions during the shooting that left 17 people dead, Israel said. Peterson was eligible for retirement.
Israel made the decision to suspend Peterson -- who was armed and in uniform at the time of the shooting -- after interviewing the deputy and reviewing footage and witness statements, he said.
"What I saw was a deputy arrive at the west side of building 12, take up a position," Israel said of the video. "And he never went in."
Israel told reporters Peterson should have "[w]ent in. Addressed the killer. Killed the killer." Instead, the deputy waited outside for about four minutes. During that time, Israel said, Peterson got on his radio and took a position where he could see the western entry of the building.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/us/florida-school-shooting/index.html

 

[soundforbjt]

Was this posted? Not keeping up with the thread...

Yes

 

[HomerJS]

Yes, because if one person freezes, then the other 12 might not. One cop freezing doesn't mean we don't need cops. One marine freezing doesn't mean disband the marines. Security guards at banks have frozen. I don't see one single post in your history stating that we should eliminate armed security guards at banks. Why the fuck do you want my children to be unprotected???

So we have the resources to place 13 highly trained, armed professionals in every school and daycare in the country??

 

[soundforbjt]

So we have the resources to place 13 highly trained, armed professionals in every school and daycare in the country??

And the locals have the resources to afford it?
Trump wants to bring back mental institutions too, more money and who can forget the charges of treatment at them.

 

[snoopy7548]

My god are people actually debating this bullshit? Anyone who thinks arming teachers with guns is a good idea is either batshit insane or utterly retarded, end of story.

 

[HomerJS]

When armed teachers receive the same training as cops in police academy, then yes I will equate them. Where is your evidence of them causing harm/death to others? Do you have any? Where is your evidence that unarmed teachers = better than armed teachers? Actual evidence, please.

Here's some. When trained police officers are forced to shoot their guns in an area where there are other people present most of the shots fired miss their target and often hit the unintended.

You want to try that scenario in a crowded school full of screaming panicked kids??

The deputy shouldn't have been placed in that situation, in the first place.

 

[BoomerD]

And the locals have the resources to afford it?
Trump wants to bring back mental institutions too, more money and who can forget the charges of treatment at them.

(stolen from the pics thread)

 

[umbrella39]

I think it is entirely plausible that an armed teacher can and will save the day sometime. I think in the aggregate introducing large numbers of firearms into schools will likely cause more net harm than good.

I also think that equating armed teachers to professional security is ridiculous.

I don't know why THIS is the goalpost move the NRA has decided to run with OTHER than the fact it of course sells more guns...

Thank God these guys aren't drug dealers... Their product seems to be even more addictive than crack or heroin to some... This idea is as stupid as it was the first time someone suggested it years ago. Sure, eventually someone will be stopped. More than likely not before they kill a bunch of kids, they'll just mitigate the damage. It's not even up for debate that more kids, teachers, etc will be shot by the "good guys" gun than a "bad guys" gun... This is why we don't already allow this. It's stupid. It's the knee jerk reactionary dog whistle many NRA nuts have been salivating for... more fucking guns in school...

 

[Pens1566]

Lost in all the discussion about arming teachers and lunch ladies as undercover John Wick clones ... how does that "fix" apply to the other places where mass shootings have occurred? You going to to arm ticket takers at the movie theater? Roadies at the concert? Singers in the choir?

The point is, going down the path of "more guns to make us safe" is an entirely ridiculous argument when you consider the range of targets out there. Pun intended.

 

[Younigue]

I also find it amusing how often pro-gun people accuse anti-gun people of arguing based on emotion when the anti-gun argument is tens of thousands of deaths without commensurate benefit and the pro gun argument is freedom.

The total lack of self awareness is impressive.

Indeed. People shouldn't get emotional about the actual loss of lives by guns but gun nuts become desperate, whining, fearful, paranoid assholes at the hint of potentially losing their guns.

 

[Incorruptible]

No vetting done on this statistic but I’m sure it’s not 100%

BS, But not surprised by the stupidity of the gun control thugs. Cops don't train much on guns, many gun owners spend far more time at the gun range than police.

 

[HomerJS]

BS, But not surprised by the stupidity of the gun control thugs. Cops don't train much on guns, many gun owners spend far more time at the gun range than police.

Some more stats for you Skippy. Now go back to your crack pipe so you can muster up another round of denial

New York City police statistics show that simply hitting a target, let alone hitting it in a specific spot, is a difficult challenge. In 2006, in cases where police officers intentionally fired a gun at a person, they discharged 364 bullets and hit their target 103 times, for a hit rate of 28.3 percent, according to the department’s Firearms Discharge Report. The police shot and killed 13 people last year.

In 2005, officers fired 472 times in the same circumstances, hitting their mark 82 times, for a 17.4 percent hit rate. They shot and killed nine people that year.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/weekinreview/09baker.html