Florida High School Shooting

[Pipeline 1010]

Haha, touche. I certainly can't argue those points.

The long and the short of the "discussion" Taj and I had was that I just haven't seen any objective evidence that arming teachers will protect students, and the evidence that is out there suggests it may actually be more dangerous. We weren't discussing resource officers.

I absolutely want schools safer, I just do not believe giving teachers guns is the answer.

Thanks for the synopsis. And thanks for not forcing me to slog through Taj posts. I also want schools safer. I don't believe that giving armed, certified, trained teachers is dangerous. We literally call armed, certified, trained people to respond when shootings happen. Why not arm, certify, and train people who are actually at the school and who can respond in real time? I don't care if it is a resource officer, a principal, a teacher, or an adult hall monitor. If they have been trained and certified, then they MAY have the ability to stop a mass murder.

What evidence is there that it might actually be more dangerous? I have not heard of a single incident of a death caused by an armed teacher.

 

[jpeyton]

First National Bank of Omaha cuts ties with NRA

So much winning today!

 

[Victorian Gray]

The NRA and Republican Senate revoked an Obama-era rule making it more difficult for people with mental health issues to purchase guns in February of 2017, useful idiot.

ACLU wants to talk to you about that rule and it's problems. I happen to think that they are correct.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/disability-rights/gun-control-laws-should-be-fair

 

[Pens1566]

First National Bank of Omaha cuts ties with NRA

So much winning today!

Yeah, this isn't going away anytime soon like previous attacks have. It's got an entirely different feel to it. Not from the nutjobs or NRA mind you, but there are definitely some surprising statements being made on the right (Rubio and now Roberts).

 

[Pipeline 1010]

First National Bank of Omaha cuts ties with NRA

So much winning today!

The debate is now over. This is proof that guns are teh evil.

 

[K1052]

Thanks for the synopsis. And thanks for not forcing me to slog through Taj posts. I also want schools safer. I don't believe that giving armed, certified, trained teachers is dangerous. We literally call armed, certified, trained people to respond when shootings happen. Why not arm, certify, and train people who are actually at the school and who can respond in real time? I don't care if it is a resource officer, a principal, a teacher, or an adult hall monitor. If they have been trained and certified, then they MAY have the ability to stop a mass murder.

What evidence is there that it might actually be more dangerous? I have not heard of a single incident of a death caused by an armed teacher.

The people who are called are supposedly professionals at the thing they're being called to do.

Also who will arm/train/certify the teachers? Who will insure them? Who will supervise them in the performance of their duties both as educators and as, effectivly, auxiliary police officers? What happens to them if they do not preform as required in an incident? What exactly are their obligations?

I have a lot of questions.

 

[Pens1566]

So much for the "good guys with guns" bit.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/us/florida-school-shooting/index.html

 

[soundforbjt]

The other link doesn't seem to provide any numbers of self defense and seems to refute the NRAtard argument that there are millions of self-defense gun uses per year. I never quoted the NRAtard numbers of millions per year, and there is a reason I didn't: THEY ARE WRONG. Please do not use that line of reasoning to dismiss the hundreds of thousands of people who defend themselves with guns per year.

Please don’t use the line that guns are used in defense hundred of thousands of times a year with no evidence then.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

[

So much for the "good guys with guns" bit.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/us/florida-school-shooting/index.html

We just need more good guys with guns For when the first good guys with guns freeze up.

Definitely need to put this on teachers and volunteers. That’s the only sensible option to ensure a precision tactical response.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

The people who are called are supposedly professionals at the thing they're being called to do.

Cops also write speeding tickets, raid drug houses, and respond to thefts. They are called to do many things. Including responding to school shootings. They are expected to be professionals at all of those things. There is nothing in this line of thinking that supports the thought that teachers cannot professionally protect my kids.

Also who will arm/train/certify the teachers?

There are already organizations who do this. I am confused. Do you need phone numbers and contact information?

Who will insure them?

Teachers already can have guns in many states. They are already are insured. Is this really your hangup on people protecting my kids? Insurance?

Who will supervise them in the performance of their duties both as educators and as, effectivly, auxiliary police officers?

Their supervisors will supervise them. What is the confusion?

What happens to them if they do not preform as required in an incident? What exactly are their obligations?

They get fired or resign.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Please don’t use the line that guns are used in defense hundred of thousands of times a year with no evidence then.

Wasn’t that the completely discredited one that claimed there were more defensive gun uses than total violent crime reported in the entire country? Believe it even counted illegal gun uses as defensive.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

Please don’t use the line that guns are used in defense hundred of thousands of times a year with no evidence then.

There is evidence in the Wiki article I quoted. What is the problem? The gun hating retards said 67,000 per year. The gun worshiping retards said 2,500,000 per year. The true number objectively lies somewhere between. Unless you hate the fact that guns can be used in defense (why would you do this???) then it is reasonable to expect the true number to lie somewhere between these biased numbers. Which would be hundreds of thousands.

 

[ivwshane]

Yes, because if one person freezes, then the other 12 might not. One cop freezing doesn't mean we don't need cops. One marine freezing doesn't mean disband the marines. Security guards at banks have frozen. I don't see one single post in your history stating that we should eliminate armed security guards at banks. Why the fuck do you want my children to be unprotected???

None of the banks I go to have a security guard. Just saying.

 

[Puffnstuff]

If they allow guns in school I'll consider opening up one myself....toddlers with guns preschool academy, young guns elementary school, kill or be killed middle school and machine gun high school.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

None of the banks I go to have a security guard. Just saying.

Wow your personal anecdote has invalidated my logic. I have officially changed my stance; I no longer believe that we should protect our children. Screw those fuckers since we don't guard every single bank with guns. You present a powerful argument.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

If they allow guns in school I'll consider opening up one myself....toddlers with guns preschool academy, young guns elementary school, kill or be killed middle school and machine gun high school.

There are already guns allowed in many schools and many teachers conceal carry.

 

[fskimospy]

To my knowledge, there has never been a student casualty by a trained, certified, armed teacher. If you can find otherwise, please post the information.

I did not claim they have superior training. I claimed that a law enforcement officer claimed that they have superior training. Am furiously searching for the quote, am not finding it. Am feeling shame. Whether they would be better at it than a cop or not doesn't matter much if the cop can't get there until after the incident is over. At worst, the teacher doesn't end the killings. At best, they do. What's not to like?

The worst case scenario is not even remotely that they don’t end the killings. It’s that over 200,000 schools you end up with more accidents and other shootings than the 80 or so school shooting deaths a year.

 

[UNCjigga]

The worst case scenario is not even remotely that they don’t end the killings. It’s that over 200,000 schools you end up with more accidents and other shootings than the 80 or so school shooting deaths a year.

Oops.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/af...i-teacher-accidentally-shoots-pupil-dead.html

 

[K1052]

Cops also write speeding tickets, raid drug houses, and respond to thefts. They are called to do many things. Including responding to school shootings. They are expected to be professionals at all of those things. There is nothing in this line of thinking that supports the thought that teachers cannot professionally protect my kids.

As a line of work in law enforcement not education.

There are already organizations who do this. I am confused. Do you need phone numbers and contact information?

I wasn't asking "who" rhetorically. What agency would manage such a program and what would the criteria be? What are the teacher's obligations specifically?

Teachers already can have guns in many states. They are already are insured. Is this really your hangup on people protecting my kids? Insurance?

School districts think about things like this. If there was an incident with such an employee the district could be sued into oblivion. School boards deal with lawsuits but not usually when you have one or more dead people involved which will create other local problems.

Their supervisors will supervise them. What is the confusion?

Which ones will do that supervising? Under what criteria? Think it would be hard if the managing person doesn't have the same training.

They get fired or resign.

I mean what if they don't follow policy, whatever that might be. Are they going to be fired if they don't go out and engage the shooter(s). If they do and the leave any students in their care alone and they are hurt/killed what happens then?

Intersting point on the lost weapons though. Put more guns in schools and that's going to happen a lot more, lots of parents won't be cool with that.

 

[K1052]

There are already guns allowed in many schools and many teachers conceal carry.

I am curious what percentage of US schools allow concealed firearms?

 

[Pipeline 1010]

The worst case scenario is not even remotely that they don’t end the killings. It’s that over 200,000 schools you end up with more accidents and other shootings than the 80 or so school shooting deaths a year.

I understand this fear and I can empathize with it. It has not been realized so far. Lots of teachers already legally conceal carry and this has not been a problem. I agree that it should be addressed if/when it is a problem. Meanwhile, I would prefer my children to be protected by highly trained people with weapons.

 

[fskimospy]

Oops.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/af...i-teacher-accidentally-shoots-pupil-dead.html

No one could have predicted.

 

[soundforbjt]

There is evidence in the Wiki article I quoted. What is the problem? The gun hating retards said 67,000 per year. The gun worshiping retards said 2,500,000 per year. The true number objectively lies somewhere between. Unless you hate the fact that guns can be used in defense (why would you do this???) then it is reasonable to expect the true number to lie somewhere between these biased numbers. Which would be hundreds of thousands.

As you admitted, they’re rarely reported and no realistic data is available due to the NRA and republicans, it allows for claims to be made with no real data. Blame the NRA and republicans for no one being to state accurately.

 

[fskimospy]

I understand this fear and I can empathize with it. It has not been realized so far. Lots of teachers already legally conceal carry and this has not been a problem. I agree that it should be addressed if/when it is a problem. Meanwhile, I would prefer my children to be protected by highly trained people with weapons.

There’s no fear here, there’s just stats and logic. Teachers with guns are unlikely to prevent mass shootings and are more likely to have people be hurt through accidents.

It’s a dumb idea, objectively.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

I am curious what percentage of US schools allow concealed firearms?

Me too. I can't find any concrete numbers. I kind of think they want it this way for tactical reasons. Anyhow, there haven't been any deaths or injuries from this, so what's the problem???