Russ
Bore's people do EXACTLY the same thing there is "no argument" against it.
Prove it!
Bore's people do EXACTLY the same thing there is "no argument" against it.
Prove it!
Prove what? That the premise of your arguments change from moment to moment, and post to post? You've already proven that quite adequately.
Russ, NCNE
Russ, NCNE
>>I'm not sure what irregularities you are referring to<<
The voting officials in Palm Beach County, alerted by voters of problems with the vote issued an email to the pricincts that they had a problem and it needed to be addressed. This was in the middle of the day on Tues.
Valusia County, when reporting the count on Tues gave erronious info. It needed to be checked out and when it did it was not demographically feasable to come up with the results it had earlier had.
Another county threw out 19,000 ballots for double punches ,another annomily.
Obviously ,I am not totally correct but I'm on the right track. The particulars are in every news source on the web. The dems where smart enough to use the results of the counties observations of anomalies as the critreia for making there choice to seek redress in the way of a re count. The decision to use a manual re count is a function of Florida state law. Bush's attempt to circumvent States rights in a federal court tomorrow is about as desperate as a losing candidate, who campaigned on "Trusting the People" and "Keeping the Feds out of States business", can get.
The irony,the hypocracy, the pathetic posturing that goes on should absolutly embarrass any Bush supporter. They have tried to claim the moral high ground for so long,and now the TRUTH is known.
Back to Chris Mathews MSNBC.
Russ
Prove what?
Try proving anything you have posted so far.Start with your sig.
I have been consistant in apposing your arrogance.
Prove what?
Try proving anything you have posted so far.Start with your sig.
I have been consistant in apposing your arrogance.
- Nov 19, 1999
- 5,435
- 234
- 106
Tripleshot - I think that Palm Beach County was the same one with the 19,000 ballots tossed out for double punching. It still isn't clear if this includes spoiled ballots where the voter was given a new one to vote. I hope that there is a full reconciliation of the number of voters who signed in to vote (I'm assuming that happens, I've never voted in the US). Double voting is very common, it happened in many other places in Florida without the same type of ballot. I find it hard to accept that this was an "irregularity".
The count problems in Valusia County seem to be the same kind as occurred in NM. A mistake by the counties in question. This seems to be an automatic grounds for a full reconciliation and restating of the count, which was done.
The ballot design in Palm Beach County was made by a Democrat, advertised before the actual vote, and has been declared legal by the State Election board. It may have not been the best design and thus merited a heightened awareness by Democrat (and poll) workers to ensure that the voters were as informed as possible. The possibility of human error was definately increased because of the design, but I don't see how it is an "irreguality" in and of itself. It seems that the vast majority were able to vote properly.
The statewide recount was automatically triggered by the close margin. At the end of the count, the Bush lead was significantly cut back, but a full recount was completed. At some point, someone decided or pushed for a manual recount.
I am still unsure about the statute for recounts. I think that there is at least a good argument that the machine counting in Palm Beach County was accurate. There will be minor variations in the count because the machine design does leave room for error and it appears that some additional ballots were included that were erroneously not included during the first count (again, common in all elections and it does not apear to be such a large number that it becomes suspicious). So the manual sample count proved that the machine count worked. During the manual count, the local County canvassing board invented criteria to define what a vote would be. This criteria was defined in a manner that the voting machine, which only counts fully punched ballots, could never have counted some of them as votes. Now, the humans involved in the vote now had to discern voter intent where a clear vote had not been made and interpreted even one corner being punched as being a vote. The criteria seemed to have changed during the manual counts as well and it appears to have been made even easier to count something as a vote (the light shining through method must have eliminated many of the votes that were counted under the at least one corner punched ruling).
It does not appear that Florida has specific instruction/guidlelines in their statutes on how to manually count punch card ballots even though it allows for manual counts.
Based on the results of the manual recounts, the board voted to manually recount all the votes in the County. Since it is impossible for them (and other counties) to finish before the deadlin established by law, there is a suit being filed to extend the deadline.
I see two arguments that can be made for and against extending the deadline. The argument for would say that the machine recounts were inherently inaccurate and a manual recount is the only method that would accurate enough. Therefore, enough time must be allowed to complete a lawful and supervised recount.
The argument against would say that there was sufficient time to complete a recount and that one was performed. Nothing in the manual counts has shown that the machine counts were inherently inaccurate. The manual counts are based on subjective criteria and the evidence they presented is not compelling enough to make the manual recounts the only accpetable recounting method. This is supported by the fact that there are three options under the statute and the State board would argue (based on the comments I heard on CNN last night) that there is not a requirement to perform a manual recount. The counties would be welcome to do so, but if they miss the deadline their votes would not be counted.
Thanks for your opinion, and I'm curious about how you feel about my post above? I see arguments for both sides.
Michael
The count problems in Valusia County seem to be the same kind as occurred in NM. A mistake by the counties in question. This seems to be an automatic grounds for a full reconciliation and restating of the count, which was done.
The ballot design in Palm Beach County was made by a Democrat, advertised before the actual vote, and has been declared legal by the State Election board. It may have not been the best design and thus merited a heightened awareness by Democrat (and poll) workers to ensure that the voters were as informed as possible. The possibility of human error was definately increased because of the design, but I don't see how it is an "irreguality" in and of itself. It seems that the vast majority were able to vote properly.
The statewide recount was automatically triggered by the close margin. At the end of the count, the Bush lead was significantly cut back, but a full recount was completed. At some point, someone decided or pushed for a manual recount.
I am still unsure about the statute for recounts. I think that there is at least a good argument that the machine counting in Palm Beach County was accurate. There will be minor variations in the count because the machine design does leave room for error and it appears that some additional ballots were included that were erroneously not included during the first count (again, common in all elections and it does not apear to be such a large number that it becomes suspicious). So the manual sample count proved that the machine count worked. During the manual count, the local County canvassing board invented criteria to define what a vote would be. This criteria was defined in a manner that the voting machine, which only counts fully punched ballots, could never have counted some of them as votes. Now, the humans involved in the vote now had to discern voter intent where a clear vote had not been made and interpreted even one corner being punched as being a vote. The criteria seemed to have changed during the manual counts as well and it appears to have been made even easier to count something as a vote (the light shining through method must have eliminated many of the votes that were counted under the at least one corner punched ruling).
It does not appear that Florida has specific instruction/guidlelines in their statutes on how to manually count punch card ballots even though it allows for manual counts.
Based on the results of the manual recounts, the board voted to manually recount all the votes in the County. Since it is impossible for them (and other counties) to finish before the deadlin established by law, there is a suit being filed to extend the deadline.
I see two arguments that can be made for and against extending the deadline. The argument for would say that the machine recounts were inherently inaccurate and a manual recount is the only method that would accurate enough. Therefore, enough time must be allowed to complete a lawful and supervised recount.
The argument against would say that there was sufficient time to complete a recount and that one was performed. Nothing in the manual counts has shown that the machine counts were inherently inaccurate. The manual counts are based on subjective criteria and the evidence they presented is not compelling enough to make the manual recounts the only accpetable recounting method. This is supported by the fact that there are three options under the statute and the State board would argue (based on the comments I heard on CNN last night) that there is not a requirement to perform a manual recount. The counties would be welcome to do so, but if they miss the deadline their votes would not be counted.
Thanks for your opinion, and I'm curious about how you feel about my post above? I see arguments for both sides.
Michael
Just heard it on CNN. It turns out that if this election goes to congress, the house would pick the president and the senate vice president. It appears that now the senate is split 50/50 so if the house picks Bush for president, Al Gore could cast the tie breaking vote to make Lieberman the VP, and we would have Bush/Lieberman in the white house. Would that be bizarre or what?
- Nov 19, 1999
- 5,435
- 234
- 106
Supertool - I bet Bush would accept that in a heartbeat. As soon as Lieberman became Vice-President, he is no longer a Senator and the Republican Governor in CT will appoint a Republican. That gives the Republicans a majority in both the Congress and the Senate.
Michael
Michael
Thanks for your opinion, and I'm curious about how you feel about my post above? I see arguments for both sides
I think its a good post,stating what you know of whats going on.It is the basis of the arguments we have been having all across this country.You seem to want to stay in the middle. I prefer to support the principle that every vote counts, and in the places where it can be shown that annomolies of the ballot,or machine,or the tabullation have skewed the validity of the intent of the voter,then that needs to be looked at and corrected.I believe that for every voter in this country,regardless of who they vote for and in what state. I will accept who ever the voters elect.I have already stated many times,neither of these dunces will be an effective leader.This election has deminished it to the point that I would bet the winner is a 1 term wonder no matter who gets it,and they will have a devided devisive congress to contend with.
If you want to argue how that is done,I personally don't care. I trust the people in Florida to do the right thing and I have enough faith in the judicial system to not mess with getting the end result fairly.
Failing all that,you could throw out Florida all together and the EC can elect without them. The provisions for that are the next step,hence Republican solicitation of money from me and millions others today for contesting Iowa,Wisconsin,Oregon,New Mexico and who ever else they can find to garner up enough votes to give them an edge.
/rant on/This is what disgusts me. This whole process is challenging the courts to determine the election,and the very party that swore it would not do that is actively begging for money from the electorate to further that thrust. Its sucks,its dispicable,its hypocracy at the highest.
/Rant Off/
I think its a good post,stating what you know of whats going on.It is the basis of the arguments we have been having all across this country.You seem to want to stay in the middle. I prefer to support the principle that every vote counts, and in the places where it can be shown that annomolies of the ballot,or machine,or the tabullation have skewed the validity of the intent of the voter,then that needs to be looked at and corrected.I believe that for every voter in this country,regardless of who they vote for and in what state. I will accept who ever the voters elect.I have already stated many times,neither of these dunces will be an effective leader.This election has deminished it to the point that I would bet the winner is a 1 term wonder no matter who gets it,and they will have a devided devisive congress to contend with.
If you want to argue how that is done,I personally don't care. I trust the people in Florida to do the right thing and I have enough faith in the judicial system to not mess with getting the end result fairly.
Failing all that,you could throw out Florida all together and the EC can elect without them. The provisions for that are the next step,hence Republican solicitation of money from me and millions others today for contesting Iowa,Wisconsin,Oregon,New Mexico and who ever else they can find to garner up enough votes to give them an edge.
/rant on/This is what disgusts me. This whole process is challenging the courts to determine the election,and the very party that swore it would not do that is actively begging for money from the electorate to further that thrust. Its sucks,its dispicable,its hypocracy at the highest.
/Rant Off/
Haha... Nice one (your link is broken BTW).
You guys are having way too much fun. Canadian Politics are boring.
(your link is broken BTW). You guys are having way too much fun.
Canadian Politics are boring. << Failing all that,you could throw out Florida all together and the EC can elect without them. The provisions for that are the next step,hence Republican solicitation of money from me and millions others today for contesting Iowa,Wisconsin,Oregon,New Mexico and who ever else they can find to garner up enough votes to give them an edge. >>
Uh and you call what Gore has been doing the past few days what? Oh yes thats right, making sure the votes are accurately counted. Uh huh, sure. Gore knows hes lost Florida, hes just trying to get Florida not counted, if a hand recount goes forward, it won't be counted at all unless the Supremes delay the Dec 18 electoral college vote, which isn't likely to happen. Sure thats making every vote count.
I say fight fire with fire, start ordering hand recounts in NM, Org, Wis and Iowa.
<< hes just trying to get Florida not counted >>
Do you really that's true? C'mon, really?
The American people wouldn't stand for it, and Gore is smart enough to know that....
Let's get the best count possible, of as many ballots as possible......of ALL the states, yes, including Florida.
SJ
Gore lost Florida? You no something Florida does not? You are good!
Get a clue. The smple re count gave a net gain of votes to Gore,not Bush. The mandatory recount triggered with the low mojority bush had on Tues showed Bush LOST votes.
How do you want it? Forget Florida and re
count the other 4 states or re count florida and forget he other 4 states?
Thought so. you don't have a clue
Gore lost Florida? You no something Florida does not? You are good!
Get a clue. The smple re count gave a net gain of votes to Gore,not Bush. The mandatory recount triggered with the low mojority bush had on Tues showed Bush LOST votes.
How do you want it? Forget Florida and re
count the other 4 states or re count florida and forget he other 4 states?
Thought so. you don't have a clue
Recount Florida, and Florida probably won't be part of the Electoral College. Gore wins. Recount the other four states, they might not be part of the electoral college. Bush wins. Hand recount in Florida won't be finished in time for the electoral college.
Yes Gore gained votes. Both canidates WILL gain votes with recounts. The way are system is, the more recounts there are, the less and less accurate it is. Hell lets just have a civil war, Im sure the 29 state Bush won would win hehe...
Yes Gore gained votes. Both canidates WILL gain votes with recounts. The way are system is, the more recounts there are, the less and less accurate it is. Hell lets just have a civil war, Im sure the 29 state Bush won would win hehe...
- Nov 19, 1999
- 5,435
- 234
- 106
Tripleshot - There has been more than just a sample recount, there has been at least one full recount in all counties in Florida. Gore gained more votes than Bush (they both gained), but Bush is still ahead pending the absentee votes.
I'm sure that both candiates and parties agree that it is the votes of the people of Florida that count. Neither is cleaner than the other there. The legal actions by both sides are based on their vision of what constitutes the will of the people (the votes). The Republicans feel they have already spoken via the initial vote and the recounts. The Democrats (and all the Counties where manual recounts are being looked at as options are ruled by 100% Democratic Canvassing Boards) feel that a further, manual count is needed to make a final determination.
I bet both sides have looked at getting all the votes in Florida thrown outand are trying to make plans on what to do if this occurs. The Democrats are in the catbird seat there as they lead the EC votes. This forces the Republicans to be the "bad" guys if Florida is tossed out.
I am cynical enough to believe that people within Gore's campaign as well as people within Bush's campaign would do what they feel they have to in order to win the election. This, in many ways, is a battle of ideologies, and the end justifies the means has been part of human condition for as long as we have been around.
On the whole, I do not trust the Democrat boards in the counties that voted for Gore to be fair in manual recounts where human judgement is the final judge of whether a vote counts or not. It is done in the open with both Rebublicans and Democrats present, but the Canvassing BOard makes the final decision.
Michael
ps - how many corners do you feel have to be punched before it can be clear that is was a vote vs. someone that considered voting and then decided none of the coices were appealing?
I'm sure that both candiates and parties agree that it is the votes of the people of Florida that count. Neither is cleaner than the other there. The legal actions by both sides are based on their vision of what constitutes the will of the people (the votes). The Republicans feel they have already spoken via the initial vote and the recounts. The Democrats (and all the Counties where manual recounts are being looked at as options are ruled by 100% Democratic Canvassing Boards) feel that a further, manual count is needed to make a final determination.
I bet both sides have looked at getting all the votes in Florida thrown outand are trying to make plans on what to do if this occurs. The Democrats are in the catbird seat there as they lead the EC votes. This forces the Republicans to be the "bad" guys if Florida is tossed out.
I am cynical enough to believe that people within Gore's campaign as well as people within Bush's campaign would do what they feel they have to in order to win the election. This, in many ways, is a battle of ideologies, and the end justifies the means has been part of human condition for as long as we have been around.
On the whole, I do not trust the Democrat boards in the counties that voted for Gore to be fair in manual recounts where human judgement is the final judge of whether a vote counts or not. It is done in the open with both Rebublicans and Democrats present, but the Canvassing BOard makes the final decision.
Michael
ps - how many corners do you feel have to be punched before it can be clear that is was a vote vs. someone that considered voting and then decided none of the coices were appealing?
Im sure the 29 state Bush won would win hehe...
You would have to teach the deer and elk and rabbits to shoot,cuz the number of states has nothing to do with population of straight thinking humans.
There are more cows in texas than people,more antelope in wyoming and so on and so on.
By the way,thats the argument FOR retaining the EC.
You would have to teach the deer and elk and rabbits to shoot,cuz the number of states has nothing to do with population of straight thinking humans.
There are more cows in texas than people,more antelope in wyoming and so on and so on.
By the way,thats the argument FOR retaining the EC.
The SOS and SAG both have to certify the Florida vote. I can see the one thats a democrat not certifing the results if they go against Gore(IE the deadline stand or the injuction happens)/
>>>I am cynical enough to believe that people within Gore's campaign as well as people within Bush's campaign would do what they feel they have to in order to win the election<<<
You and 100,000,000 of the rest of us!
The canvessing board is not partison.They declared that last night. I know they are democrats but I could care less if they where republican as long as there partisoship did not taint there decesion. They made that vote last night in full view of the public,on TV,and now asshole republicans have threatened that womans life! That is unconcionable and happens to galvanize poeple like me to appose the Republicans with all my might(and I am a conservitive in most issues). Besides,they do not now have the duty to scrutinize each ballot now,I don't think. That will probably be done as it is now in Volusia County,with 2 members of the voting commision and 1 rep and 1 dem looking at each ballot looking for irregularoties that are piled and then further scrutinized to determine (as best they can) the will of the voter. I'm sure failing a consenses,the ballot would not tbe tallied.
This isn't rocket science.This is common sense. The republicans are trying to demonize this as too complicated for mere mortals to do.
Give me a friggen break:|
You and 100,000,000 of the rest of us!
The canvessing board is not partison.They declared that last night. I know they are democrats but I could care less if they where republican as long as there partisoship did not taint there decesion. They made that vote last night in full view of the public,on TV,and now asshole republicans have threatened that womans life! That is unconcionable and happens to galvanize poeple like me to appose the Republicans with all my might(and I am a conservitive in most issues). Besides,they do not now have the duty to scrutinize each ballot now,I don't think. That will probably be done as it is now in Volusia County,with 2 members of the voting commision and 1 rep and 1 dem looking at each ballot looking for irregularoties that are piled and then further scrutinized to determine (as best they can) the will of the voter. I'm sure failing a consenses,the ballot would not tbe tallied.
This isn't rocket science.This is common sense. The republicans are trying to demonize this as too complicated for mere mortals to do.
Give me a friggen break:|
- Nov 19, 1999
- 5,435
- 234
- 106
Tripleshot - Bush and Gore have both declared that they will put the will of the people over their parties and both do not seem to be acting that way. How can you honestly believe that the Canvassing Board is not partisan just because they announced they were not?
I think I'm coming over to the side of trusting the machines to count more than people. I trust people to ensure that the machines were counting the punched ballots correctly. I do not trust people to be honest and I do not trust subjective judgements determining what the voter intended.
I am extra cynical because I have worked as an auditor for many years and done enough fraud audits to know.
Michael
ps- I hope every single ballot is very closely examined to see if one corner is broken on any Chad. I imagine that many started to press the 2nd chad and then realized that Gore was the third one and pushed that one all the way through. If one corner means a vote, one corner should mean a double vote and the ballot gets scrapped.
I think I'm coming over to the side of trusting the machines to count more than people. I trust people to ensure that the machines were counting the punched ballots correctly. I do not trust people to be honest and I do not trust subjective judgements determining what the voter intended.
I am extra cynical because I have worked as an auditor for many years and done enough fraud audits to know.
Michael
ps- I hope every single ballot is very closely examined to see if one corner is broken on any Chad. I imagine that many started to press the 2nd chad and then realized that Gore was the third one and pushed that one all the way through. If one corner means a vote, one corner should mean a double vote and the ballot gets scrapped.
I think I've got the dems plan figured out.
1. Approve the use of the so called "illegal" butterfly ballot.
2. Call the Golden Girls the morning of the election making sure they raise a stink.
3. Hope it's close enough to kick in an automatic recount.
4. Hope their boy picks up enough to win (didn't happen).
5. Get the county election board, 2 dems, 1 repub (2 to 1 vote), to approve a partial recount in the 4 most heavily democrat precincts in the county.
6. Hope their boy picks up enough to win (didn't happen).
7. Get the county election board, 2 dems, 1 repub (2 to 1 vote at 2:30 in the morning) to do a total recount of 425,000 votes.
8. Knowing that a hand recount will take longer than the time available get ready to go to court, hoping a judge will extend the time period ignoring state law.
9. If that works then maybe they can draw this out long enough so that Florida can't seat it's electors and Gore wins on the existing count.
Pretty good plan. Of course this is what you get when you have a Daley running a campaign. One of the most corrupt political families in the country. Vote early, Vote often.
Hey, if Gore wants to be the President so bad let him have it. The Dems are going to get raped in 4 years.
All hail the Commander in Thief!
1. Approve the use of the so called "illegal" butterfly ballot.
2. Call the Golden Girls the morning of the election making sure they raise a stink.
3. Hope it's close enough to kick in an automatic recount.
4. Hope their boy picks up enough to win (didn't happen).
5. Get the county election board, 2 dems, 1 repub (2 to 1 vote), to approve a partial recount in the 4 most heavily democrat precincts in the county.
6. Hope their boy picks up enough to win (didn't happen).
7. Get the county election board, 2 dems, 1 repub (2 to 1 vote at 2:30 in the morning) to do a total recount of 425,000 votes.
8. Knowing that a hand recount will take longer than the time available get ready to go to court, hoping a judge will extend the time period ignoring state law.
9. If that works then maybe they can draw this out long enough so that Florida can't seat it's electors and Gore wins on the existing count.
Pretty good plan. Of course this is what you get when you have a Daley running a campaign. One of the most corrupt political families in the country. Vote early, Vote often.
Hey, if Gore wants to be the President so bad let him have it. The Dems are going to get raped in 4 years.
All hail the Commander in Thief!
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