Florida Election law on deadlines - judge upholds deadline

[Michael]

Here is a link to a Florida election case where there was a much large error made than the issue of the ballot design and the judges (lower level and appeal) did not invalidate the election or ask for a revote. I'm even more convinced that the "confusing ballot" argument is doomed.

Florida Court case on voting errors by the counters

Michael

ps and a decent article on taking this type of issue to court:

No one is "taking the low road"

 

[ride525]

Interesting plan, Tiger...

Too bad so much of it isn't true...

 

[Format C:]

<< Im sure the 29 state Bush won would win hehe...

You would have to teach the deer and elk and rabbits to shoot,cuz the number of states has nothing to do with population of straight thinking humans. >>

Tripleshot? How mercy son! Where the heck you been? Ain't you done herd dat ALL of us'ns has gots guns, and just bunches of em'? You guys wouldn't last past the first break for brunch.

First off we'd send in all da Crop Dusters packed slap dab full wid all da Fightin' Game Roosters wid razor blades screwed on dere spurs dat we thought we might could spare (wouldnt wanna destroy our Sattidy Night rec-o-ree-ashun now wood we?), and ever tank on 'em thangs gizzed plum full wid pur-N-tee one hunnert persent consintratid Red-Man bakker spit. And if'n I wuz you, I shore wouldn't wanna be outside when 'em thangs come a swoopin' down a flappin' just lookin' fer sumpin to git all up in, not to menchun if'n ya happent ta be lookin up when at bakker spit cum rainin down on ya. Whoooo Son, dere goes dem eyes fo shor! We'd probly foller dat up wid a simotainyus attack by the Bass Boat Floatiller HEVLY armed wid ho-made diney-might wropped reeeel tite with old rusty bobbed wire (hey, its good for mo dan fishin' ya know?), 'long wid wave after wave after wave a Monstuh 4-Wheelahs loaded to da gills wid pissed off Rattlers, Rabid He-Coons and Possums and a few Sex Stahved Cat Skwirrels chunked in fer good mezhur. And God hep ya when at Florider Rednek Spechul Forces Unit cums a chargin' in at da reah wid all dem Pit Bulls, Half-Stahved River Swamp Alleygaters an Wild Bo Hawgs (wid dem razer sharp tushes no less). Nawwww yall wouldnt stand half a chaince. I seerusly dowt we'd even bust a swet.

 

[Moonbeam]

I have watched the proceedings as carefully as I could and it seems to me that the Deomcrats have the stronger legal position on the recount. I can see no reason, provided all laws are followed, why Gore should not attempt to show that he won in Florida. They have an established prodceedure, rule, or law on how to hand inspect punch ballots to determine voter intent, and the inspcection is public and supervixed by both sides. The purpose is to count votes that were intended as votes, but which, due to the physical nature of punch ballots, don't always mechanicaal regester. If a ballot is punched and the punched out part refills the hole preventing the machine from counting it, that can be easily seen by eye. What can be unfair about recording votes that were cast by voters. What kind of an American wants to deny people the right to have their fellow Americans votes count. Bush was warned of the danger of taking the issue to court. Who believes he ignored that danger because he is sure he has the majority of legal votes. It's all about whether we are going to count votes that Florida law allows to be counted. I think it's quite clear that Bush neither trusts voters or State's rights, and is looking for an activist interventionist federal judge to save his bacon. It didn't take long to show his lack of character.

The legal position is so weak, in fact, that the Republican argument will quickly shift to the terrible damage Gore is doing to the country by prolonging surrender. We'll be laughingstocks, the market will crash, People hate sore loosers, it hurts America. Remember how George whined and cried because Gore was SCARRING the voters. Geez, Bush, don't SCARE the American people just to serve your political ambition. Bush has the means to save us all from that. He can bow out any time.

The election is essentially a tie. Somebody will get a phoney victory through the law or through pressure for one to resign. I hope it's through the law because it is facinating. My my, don't we love our lawyers.

 

[chess9]

Michael:

That Volusia County case you linked says it's up to the judge to decide whether the results reflect the will of the peeps. Do you really feel confident the Judge in PBC is going to say this election reflected the will of the peeps when they have been demonstrating in the street and the whole world is watching? My crystal ball is in the shop, but I'd guess she will intervene in a big way, if necessary.

Anyway, we are merely speculating.

 

[Michael]

Yes, I do think that. The case has two parts. One is the criteria on how severe a &quot;problem&quot; has to be before a vote is thrown out or redone. The second is a affirmation that the statecourt does have the power. The first part sets a pretty high standard.

The will of the people in Palm Beach County was strongly heard. They voted in a landslide for Gore. The whole &quot;important to the nation&quot; line of thought doesn't make sense because all votes in all places are equally important and the extra scrutiny never would have happened if the overall vote was not so close. That has nothing to do with Palm Beach County where the vote was not close.

Michael

 

[chess9]

Well, as Jesse Jackson said, the will of the peeps must be viewed in context of a national election for President.
Although the standard seems to be high, I would think a liberal female judge would not be disinclined to find it met.

But we'll see how this plays out.

Right now the problem with the Tuesday deadline seems to be a bar to Gore getting enough re-count votes to overcome the absentee ballots which will probably tip the scales in Bush's favor. Also, Volusia County shows a net 21 votes more for BUSH so far in their count! Maybe Bush shouldn't fear a manual recount. Maybe he can win legitimately.

 

[SJ]

chess, &quot;recount votes&quot; don't mean anything unless the whole county is recounted. Partial counts can't be added to the count.

 

[chess9]

SJ:

We'll see what the counties do about that problem. Do you have a state law to support your view?

 

[Michael]

As I think we all expected, CNN is reporting that the Federal Court judge ruled that halting manual recounts is a matter for the state courts to decide.

Michael

 

[Tiger]

ride525,

Every one of points 1-7 have been confirmed by various media outlets in the last week.

Point 8 will be decided by a Florida circuit court judge tommorow.

If the judge allows the count to go on past 5:00 pm point 9 will kick in when GW goes to court asking that all counties be manually checked. That's 6M votes hand counted. There's no way on God's green acre that you can manually count that many ballots by Dec. 18th.

 

[Russ]

Interesting:



<< Officials in Broward County, one of the four Demcratic stronghold counties considering a full hand recount, voted against proceeding with the process after conducting a recount of three precincts -- about 1 percent of the county's precincts -- and finding no significant errors. >>



And, the democrat response:



<< Charles Lichtman, an attorney for the Democratic party in Broward County, told CNN that the Democrats will go to court to try to force the county to complete the recount. >>



Yep, they're real concerned about Florida's right to manage their own affairs.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Tiger]

Well what do you know about that.

It's OK for the Palm Beach democrats to vote for a total manual recount, but those dang Broward county democrats have to be forced to do it.

If Gore does win, Ft. Lauderdale can kiss any goodies from the federal government goodbye. He He!

 

[SJ]

I wonder what Gore will do if Miami-Dade refuses to count their ballots.

 

[ride525]

<< Every one of points 1-7 have been confirmed by various media outlets in the last week. >>



Well, there may be SOME truth to each of the seven points happening, but I've seen no evidence of there being some master &quot;plan&quot;.

 

[Michael]

from a post in another thread ...

I'm going to guess and say that the deadline will stand. I'm an accountant, not a lawyer expert in Florida State election law, so I'm not going to claim anything more than a guess.

The basis for my guess is the following:

1) &quot;may&quot; is written so that there is room in extraordinary situtions like a natural disaster to give some leeway to a county to get thier results in to be counted.

2) The SOS gets to decide the &quot;may&quot; part of &quot;may&quot;

3) There is no extraordinary situation in the counties asking for an extention:

a) there were three choices of action that could be followed, a complete manual recount being only one of them. A county choosing the most lengthy one is not the fault of the State and puts the oneous on completing their choice on teh county.

b) the machines have not been shown to be in serious error. Therefore, they can be used to recount in plenty of time to meet the deadline. If the county decided that it wants a higher level of &quot;accuracy&quot;, then it must meet the deadline.

c) the closeness of the national results are moot. All the effected counties voted strongly for Gore. With those strong results added to the state total, Bush still wins. So it is very difficult to say that their voices will not be heard.

d) Palm Beach County is only going to start on Tuesday which I would say is negligent and the County's inability to perform a timely recount is not the responsibility of the State.

e) The State's legal opinion (as given when PBC voted to manually recount) was that there was not a need to manually recount.

The crux of my point of view is that a local decision (county) to recount by hand does not create a need for the State to change the deadline set by statute.

I read the county that filed to have the deadline extended's brief.

1) They're going to make it on time, so they don't need an extention

2) None of the &quot;extraordinary&quot; items they mentioned, with the possible exception of the malfunctioning counting machine, create a need to extend the deadline:

a) One machine was broken - plenty of time to use another machine or fix the broken one

b) A bag of ballots was found and turned it - make a decision on the validity of the ballots and either discard or machine count them

c) Memory card burned out - put another one in and recount.

Just my opinion, of course.

Michael

 

[ride525]

<< Yep, they're real concerned about Florida's right to manage their own affairs. >>



There's an election going on here folks. It's a close one. First prize, White House. Both sides seem to be trying to pull out all the stops.

Some of their tactics AMAZE me (Bush's attempt today in FEDERAL court, most didn't think Bush had much chance of a win there.) Most other tactics, don't surprise me in the least, both side are trying to win a close election.

 

[SJ]

Poor elected officals in Florida 90% of them will no longer be in politics because of this.

 

[ride525]

Yeah, and I'd HATE to be a Florida judge, trying to decide any of this. Some hard decisions....

One of the Palm Beach Election Commissioners is getting death threats, and under police protection.

 

[wiin]

Ride525,
thought you would like to read this about your gore and friends:

1.Gore friendly media livid over Harris' deadline decision. claims Harris
was appointed by Jeb Bush when in fact she was elected--null

2.Media pressure Bush delegate to vote for Gore--Newsmax.com

3.Did the INS import vote? improperly and illegally rushing the naturalization of aliens for the election.--Text[

4.HOW DEMOCRATS STEAL ELECTIONS Search &quot;steal&quot; once you are here

 

[lepper boy]

my .02 cents worth, even if it doesn't go along with the course of conversation.

One or the other should bow out gracefully, (YA RIGHT LIKE THAT WILL HAPPEN!!!!!!) Think of our status in the world.. the great U.S.A. with two guys bickering and argueing over who gets to rule for the next 4 years.....

Give em some boxing gloves and through them into a small closet. That'll decide who wins.

 

[Shuxclams]

<< One of the Palm Beach Election Commissioners is getting death threats, and under police protection. >>


Its not like the guy was a abortion performing doctor, or a patron of a gay bar or a....or a... Typical.

Deadlines are deadlines and if the 14th is the deadline then thats it. I must say that FL. is fvcked up, how can you have the election cetification 4 days before the absentee ballots are due? Thats just dumb, then again its not surprising. One could almost argue that the 14th is kinda stupid if the absentee votes are going to count. :Q



<< Did the INS import vote? improperly and illegally rushing the naturalization of aliens for the election >>


Well well, ain't that a nice thought, we have &quot;stupid&quot; voters, we have &quot;women&quot; so weak that they can't punch the hole completly and now a &quot;immigrant&quot; conspiracy, well I think that maybe the Old people, the women and minorities should be disallowed from voting, then we'll always get the &quot;right&quot; results. Its America you don't like it? Tuff.

Russ, Russ, Russ.....read more closely...


<< Charles Lichtman, an attorney for the Democratic party in Broward County >>

The Lawer is from and lives in Broward and would be filing as a DEMOcrat from Broward to get a handcount in Broward, much different from a certain party, who is in favor of states rights, sueing to stop the local goverment from doing their business in Federal court.


SHUX

 

[chess9]

Michael:

Regardless of what the Leon County judge does today regarding the deadline, the other party will appeal to the Florida Supreme Court unless a settlement(which IS being discussed) is reached. The Florida Supreme Court WILL extend the deadline. Count on it. In fact, I have $20 that says if they get the case, they will order an extension.

 

[chess9]

Wiin:

Don't you have to clean the barrels on your machine gun collection?

Good grief, where do you get all these goofy links? You right wingers are like West Virginians-all inbred clones. Scary.

 

[Michael]

chess9 - I'm guessing that the Florida Supreme Court is full of Democrat appointees, or has a well known track record of voting in that way. Of course, it has to go to an appeal court first. If the first ruling is &quot;deadline not extended&quot;, then I don't see how they'll have a second ruling by the time the deadline passes. Since PBC has not even started counting yet and they have strongly indicated that they couldn't even meet the Friday deadline, the deadline would have to be pushed out ever farther.

I think that it will come down to a definition of the criteria which the State must follow to enforce the &quot;may&quot;. Judges interpret law and provide guidence in their written opinions of why they interpreted the law the way they did. Since there is a large amount of doubt that the machines were inaccurate, there may be no legal basis for amanual recount, plus they county has other options that woud make the deadline, they just chose the one that takes too long.

If the judge says that the local desire to take more time does not overrule the State's desire to enforce the deadline, then I think even the Supreme Court will side with him. remember, the local county (PBC) is trying to entend a deadline because of a problem that was in their control to circumvent to beging with.

Michael