First democrat debate

[HamburgerBoy]

I don't know much about stock brokers, I just know that I've heard anecdotes about how you can't get a job on Wall Street unless you graduated from prestigious college X; just replace that with any other rather exclusive career. My point is that you can get a job as an engineer, a doctor, an average business manager, etc from a cheap, low-prestige, accredited university. Anyone that whines about not being able to afford $200,000 for a music degree at USC can fuck themselves.

 

[flexy]

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.

And extremely small, retarded minds discuss themselves...like Trump

 

[AznAnarchy99]

Between work-study offers, summer jobs, and internships, I don't see that as unaffordable.

Work study caps you at 10 hours a week of work. You are not allowed to go over that. Say you work school year minus summer/spring/winter breaks. Estimating, say 30 weeks a year, at $10/hr (some may have more, some may have less), you've made $3000, $12,000 throughout your 4 year school pre-tax.

Now if you do that, you lose out on your potential internships that are pretty much all non-paid. Those internships could lead to valuable experience and a full-time job when you graduate.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Work study caps you at 10 hours a week of work. You are not allowed to go over that. Say you work school year minus summer/spring/winter breaks. Estimating, say 30 weeks a year, at $10/hr (some may have more, some may have less), you've made $3000, $12,000 throughout your 4 year school pre-tax.

Now if you do that, you lose out on your potential internships that are pretty much all non-paid. Those internships could lead to valuable experience and a full-time job when you graduate.

Depends on the case I guess. I have a younger brother at my low-tier local public university, and he got paid a lot to intern at University of Michigan. I did a summer research fellowship which paid $5,000 for ten weeks. My school also has fall and spring fellowships which pay the same; generally you can only do one fellowship from a given research institution, but at least here that means about two over a four-year program. Work study will conflict if you're going out of state, but at least for several semesters it's not that much work, and often gives study time. E.g. many work study programs are things like being a computer lab monitor, or a library assistant, or similar where you can study during down-time.

This also excludes/ignores state grants, which can help significantly as well. At my school that was about another $10,000, and I didn't even have any special merit or minority group grants involved there.

 

[Svnla]

I love how serving the people is characterized as free handouts by conservatives. Free roads? Who is going to pay for them? Goddamn socialists and the free road handouts. Goddamn liberals and their promises of free tuition like many other first-world countries so I don't have to put away $300/month/child for 18 years for their tuition. $600/month for me is no big deal, what's really important is those damn illegals. Goddamn progressives with their promises of paid family leave like almost all other first-world countries, what's really important is abortionplexes and ISIS under my bed and prayer in schools and the ten commandments in courthouses.

I raised two valid questions and you did not answer neither one and then went on to rage about craps that I never said in this thread or anywhere (expressed or implied).

No insults such as "dumbass", "moron", "retard", and so on from you this time? I am shocked.

LOL @ me as "conservative" and religious.

 

[ivwshane]

So in your mind, because options were available to you, means that there are options available to all?

Anecdotal evidence doesn't make for a very convincing arguement. How about you show how the roughly 20 million students can have affordable education by showing us ~20 million different options available to them like you had available to you. I'll even make it easier for you, show options for at least 10 million students.

Depends on the case I guess. I have a younger brother at my low-tier local public university, and he got paid a lot to intern at University of Michigan. I did a summer research fellowship which paid $5,000 for ten weeks. My school also has fall and spring fellowships which pay the same; generally you can only do one fellowship from a given research institution, but at least here that means about two over a four-year program. Work study will conflict if you're going out of state, but at least for several semesters it's not that much work, and often gives study time. E.g. many work study programs are things like being a computer lab monitor, or a library assistant, or similar where you can study during down-time.

This also excludes/ignores state grants, which can help significantly as well. At my school that was about another $10,000, and I didn't even have any special merit or minority group grants involved there.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

So in your mind, because options were available to you, means that there are options available to all?

Anecdotal evidence doesn't make for a very convincing arguement. How about you show how the roughly 20 million students can have affordable education by showing us ~20 million different options available to them like you had available to you. I'll even make it easier for you, show options for at least 10 million students.

What options? Are you saying that work study programs don't exist at many schools? Or research opportunities? The fact of the matter is we have many students that somehow manage to graduate with a Bachelor's despite being told that it's unaffordable. Apparently, more manage so in the USA than in Germany, by a significant amount. If college being unaffordable is the primary cause preventing people from attending and graduating, why aren't more European countries exceeding our level of educational attainment?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

By the way, I thought you guys were arguing that education should be based off of merit, not family or income. Guess what? Fellowships and grants are given largely on merit, usually a mixture of grades and willingness to do extra work towards an education. At my college, the majority of listed fellowships and grants are specifically intended for underprivileged minority groups. Maybe if you're too mediocre to receive any of those opportunities, too lazy to put in the hours to work over the summer, and too busy blowing $$$ on alcohol enjoying the "college experience", you shouldn't be in college.

 

[JEDIYoda]

single digit ratings for the networks carrying this tonight fo sho

wrong as usual...rofl..hahaaa

 

[LegendKiller]

You don't know very many stock brokers, do you?

I happen to know hundreds of bankers, traders, sales people, syndicate managers, and there aren't nearly as many ivy leagues or others as people think there are.

 

[nickqt]

I happen to know hundreds of bankers, traders, sales people, syndicate managers, and there aren't nearly as many ivy leagues or others as people think there are.

Ivy Leaguers go on to to commit crimes with Goldman, not the average financial institution outside of Wall St.

 

[dank69]

Haven't heard many conservatives opposing roads. ...

That was the point. They complain about free tuition, paid family leave, etc. as socialism/handouts but roads and infrastructure are the same thing. Only the craziest of the crazy complain about roads, but it is just as crazy to complain about free tuition.

 

[mect]

The name of your school is very important and those schools cost a lot more.

Not really. The quality of the program you enter is very important. The two are not necessarily the same thing.

In general, studies have shown that the reason people attending prestigious universities earn more is because the best students go to the prestigious universities. If you normalize for the quality of students, studies have shown very little if any difference in outcomes based on the name of the university.

 

[mect]

Depends on the case I guess. I have a younger brother at my low-tier local public university, and he got paid a lot to intern at University of Michigan. I did a summer research fellowship which paid $5,000 for ten weeks. My school also has fall and spring fellowships which pay the same; generally you can only do one fellowship from a given research institution, but at least here that means about two over a four-year program. Work study will conflict if you're going out of state, but at least for several semesters it's not that much work, and often gives study time. E.g. many work study programs are things like being a computer lab monitor, or a library assistant, or similar where you can study during down-time.

This also excludes/ignores state grants, which can help significantly as well. At my school that was about another $10,000, and I didn't even have any special merit or minority group grants involved there.

I don't think anyone would argue that no students can afford education. Top students today making use of scholarships and grants can certainly get through college with minimal debt, particularly as you say at cheaper regional institutions. The problem is there are a lot of good but not great students that won't qualify for the scholarships and fellowships.

In this country, we tend to do a really good job ensuring the education of the top students and the bottom students. But just like in our economy, we tend to ignore the middle students. And these middle students are the ones that typically build the middle class. This is an area where other countries are really beating us.

 

[Bitek]

Not really. The quality of the program you enter is very important. The two are not necessarily the same thing.

In general, studies have shown that the reason people attending prestigious universities earn more is because the best students go to the prestigious universities. If you normalize for the quality of students, studies have shown very little if any difference in outcomes based on the name of the university.

Pretty much true in my experience. The name can help get your foot in the door, but it's all up to you on where to go next.

No one really knows or cares where you got a degree from once you have established your professional reputation.

 

[dank69]

I raised two valid questions and you did not answer neither one and then went on to rage about craps that I never said in this thread or anywhere (expressed or implied).

You mean the two rhetorical questions that you answered yourself? You already know the debt is close to $18T, why did you need me to answer that? As for the first question, if you had paid any attention at all you would know Sanders said he plans on taxing Wall Street speculators. You see, you didn't really want answers to your questions which is why I didn't answer them in the first place. You are just reaching for any shit you can fling at me because you can't actually argue with my post.

No insults such as "dumbass", "moron", "retard", and so on from you this time? I am shocked.

LOL @ me as "conservative" and religious.

My post was a comment on conservatives in general and how they characterize these programs as "free shit" in exchange for votes. My post never claimed you were religious, those were just examples of stupid things that many conservatives cluck about. Are you honestly claiming you aren't conservative? You know we can all see your posting history, right? Are you claiming to be some sort of independent? Kind of like a Boberdependent who only complains about those damn liberals?

 

[LegendKiller]

Ivy Leaguers go on to to commit crimes with Goldman, not the average financial institution outside of Wall St.

Lol. On my turret at work in have every bank on the street on speed dial. I can have any banker I want from any bank on the phone in 30mins or less, 24/7.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I don't think anyone would argue that no students can afford education. Top students today making use of scholarships and grants can certainly get through college with minimal debt, particularly as you say at cheaper regional institutions. The problem is there are a lot of good but not great students that won't qualify for the scholarships and fellowships.

In this country, we tend to do a really good job ensuring the education of the top students and the bottom students. But just like in our economy, we tend to ignore the middle students. And these middle students are the ones that typically build the middle class. This is an area where other countries are really beating us.

But like I said before, how is it that so many students still manage to graduate, and how is it that we have more graduates than many countries with free (or at least heavily subsidized) education? If there are students that primarily cite cost as a reason for not attending college, there are probably other confounding factors also at play (mediocre/poor entrance exam scores, stubbornness regarding which colleges they'll attend, etc). A lot of this is based on the dogma that students must graduate high school and immediately start college, even though about half of them will drop out before they finish. Some people have to work crap jobs for a while before they feel the motivation to really try for a degree; others may realize that college isn't the best path for their personal goals.

 

[LegendKiller]

Your argument is invalid. Doing something we know will not work is worse than useless. It is activly spending money on something we already know will fail to fix the problem you state it is intended to fix.

So, what you are really saying is "Fuck it! Let's just piss away a few billion dollars of taxpayer money because I don't know what else to do."

Here is another idea; maybe the immigrants just are not a problem. Perhaps, like every other generation found, that immigrants are actually a boon to our nation. Instead of trying to deport them we should be trying to integrate them into our society and get them paying taxes.

So how do we know it will not work? Did we not have higher taxes 60 years ago? Did it crush our economy then? Did we not deport millions of illegals 60 years ago, did it crush our economy then? Did we not have higher trade protections 60 years ago?

How about we employ 5 million Americans and not worry about 5 million working illegals. Perhaps that would be a boon for our nation rather than handing our money to everybody, illegals and non.

I don't give a fuck about illegals. I give a fuck about the 25% unemployment among young black men. I give a fuck about U6 unemployment being too high. I give a fuck about currency arbitrage artificially making our workers uncompetitive.

Why don't you give a fuck?

 

[Svnla]

You mean the two rhetorical questions that you answered yourself? You already know the debt is close to $18T, why did you need me to answer that? As for the first question, if you had paid any attention at all you would know Sanders said he plans on taxing Wall Street speculators. You see, you didn't really want answers to your questions which is why I didn't answer them in the first place. You are just reaching for any shit you can fling at me because you can't actually argue with my post.



My post was a comment on conservatives in general and how they characterize these programs as "free shit" in exchange for votes. My post never claimed you were religious, those were just examples of stupid things that many conservatives cluck about. Are you honestly claiming you aren't conservative? You know we can all see your posting history, right? Are you claiming to be some sort of independent? Kind of like a Boberdependent who only complains about those damn liberals?

ONLY about those damn liberals?

Oh really?

D or R, they are two sides of the same coin, working for the stinking rich.

So D and R parties are pandering to the illegals and the taxpayers are getting screw, again.

One more thing, did we try "comprehension immigration reform" aka amnesty for million and million of ILLEGALS before? Yes we did in the mid 80s IIRC. How was it? So now we are going to try it again and it may have different result?

Do you want more? "ONLY" liberals, eh? Yes, I am an old angry white guy that live in a trailer full of confederate flags and I hate all minorities (from certain poster(s) in this forum accused me of , not you)

 

[dank69]

ONLY about those damn liberals?

Oh really?





Wait for more to come.

"BothSidesTheSame" doesn't count because it usually requires conservative logic to support the claim. Tell you what, if you can pull up 5 posts of yours criticizing only conservatives or Republicans, I'll admit you are an independent.

 

[Svnla]

"BothSidesTheSame" doesn't count because it usually requires conservative logic to support the claim. Tell you what, if you can pull up 5 posts of yours criticizing only conservatives or Republicans, I'll admit you are an independent.

I just put one that was ONLY about the huge amnesty during the 80s from Reagan administration above. Stay tuned.

Here is another one. (#2)

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

The amnesty program under Reagan did NOT work. Why would you think this time it will work? <scratching head..confused>

A post that praised the Democrats that did the right thing ( against the repeal of Glass-Steagall) and bashed the Republicans because of their yes votes. (#3)

Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama (Republican, formerly a Democrat) voted against it, as did 7 Democratic Senators: Barbara Boxer (Calif.), Richard Bryan (Nevada), Byron Dorgan (N. Dakota), Russell Feingold (Wisc.), Tom Harkin (Iowa), Barbara Mikulski (Maryland) and Paul Wellstone (Minn.)

Another one about Reagan/Republican amnesty. (#4)

Can you find a post that I said what Reagan did in the 80's was right? As a matter of fact, I did bash him more than once for what he did. Do the same ole thing (amnesty/path to citizenship in this case) and expect different result = crazy and stupid.

and numero cinco (#5)

Did we try amnesty a while back to solve ILLEGAL immigration before? Yup we did, a big one during Reagan and a few smaller ones after that. Did it work? Even more illegals now = nope, not working.

 

[ivwshane]

So how do we know it will not work? Did we not have higher taxes 60 years ago? Did it crush our economy then? Did we not deport millions of illegals 60 years ago, did it crush our economy then? Did we not have higher trade protections 60 years ago?

How about we employ 5 million Americans and not worry about 5 million working illegals. Perhaps that would be a boon for our nation rather than handing our money to everybody, illegals and non.

I don't give a fuck about illegals. I give a fuck about the 25% unemployment among young black men. I give a fuck about U6 unemployment being too high. I give a fuck about currency arbitrage artificially making our workers uncompetitive.

Why don't you give a fuck?

Just an FYI, the U6 number is the same as it was in 1996, 2003, and where it was before Obama took office.

http://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet

 

[LegendKiller]

Just an FYI, the U6 number is the same as it was in 1996, 2003, and where it was before Obama took office.

http://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet

Then combine that with the decline in the labor force participation rate.

 

[MongGrel]

Talk about absorbing that which you want to believe or associate with...yikes....

If anything I found this debate to be highly negative and overly focused on the Republicans ...the dems worked extra hard to spin and fake folks out with this BS image of a common focus and unity of the party but like I said they eventually will have to stop stroking each other and draw some lines in the sand if one of them wants to stand out.

The good for them is that currently there are only two people in this race on their side, the others were just a joke to make it look like more of a contest.

Is someone paying you to keep coming back to this thread and making irrelevant, idiotic thread craps? If so, they deserve their money back. I hadn't had time to see the debate last night, so I just read through this thread. For the most part, it was like watching a group of friends having a polite conversation at a bar, while some drunken patron keeps trying to interject some nonsense into the discussion.

I almost posted something similar to that myself earlier, but as most people were just ignoring the plastered guy at the end of the bar did not at the time.

:biggrin: