First bombs, now sniper rifles: the ties between Iran and Iraq are getting stronger

[fskimospy]

A few things. First of all... is anyone shocked that the countries in the middle east are arming and funding their ideological allies in Iraq? Iran is funding/arming the Shia, and the Sunni states are funding/arming the Sunni. Yeah, that includes Saudi Arabia. When you hear "the insurgents" that generally means the Sunni insurgency. It seems unlikely that Shia Iran is supplying its ideological enemies with arms to overthrow a government that it views as friendly and a strong potential ally. Or do you think we're fighting the whole country now? If so... that's an even better reason to get out of there.

We're fighting the Sunnis waaaaaayyy more then we're fighting the Shia and yet I don't hear any calls for an attack on any other countries besides Iran. Why is this? I honestly think we are already taking the best course of action possible in Iraq to limit foreign involvement, and that happens to be arresting and killing their agents that we find in Iraq. That's all we can do really.

Palehose, you're nuts though. Again you try to invoke the idea that dissent and disagreement in America is somehow a bad thing, and that it helps our enemies. Dissent and disagreement is NEVER EVER EVER a bad thing. It is the foundation of our democracy. If you don't love every single dissenting voice as the highest expression of what it really is to be American it's not the dissenter, it's YOU that are against America.

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Palehose, you're nuts though. Again you try to invoke the idea that dissent and disagreement in America is somehow a bad thing, and that it helps our enemies. Dissent and disagreement is NEVER EVER EVER a bad thing. It is the foundation of our democracy. If you don't love every single dissenting voice as the highest expression of what it really is to be American it's not the dissenter, it's YOU that are against America.

No, dissent leads to low morale and no support for the actions that need to be done.
A divideded country will NOT win a war. Ever. Period. This isnt the highest expression of America, its the clearest road to failure.

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Palehose, you're nuts though. Again you try to invoke the idea that dissent and disagreement in America is somehow a bad thing, and that it helps our enemies. Dissent and disagreement is NEVER EVER EVER a bad thing. It is the foundation of our democracy. If you don't love every single dissenting voice as the highest expression of what it really is to be American it's not the dissenter, it's YOU that are against America.

No, dissent leads to low morale and no support for the actions that need to be done.
A divideded country will NOT win a war. Ever. Period. This isnt the highest expression of America, its the clearest road to failure.

What about strategic blunders by our administration.

What about cutting Veterans' funds.



That's got to be the path to success.


:thumbsdown:

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Palehose, you're nuts though. Again you try to invoke the idea that dissent and disagreement in America is somehow a bad thing, and that it helps our enemies. Dissent and disagreement is NEVER EVER EVER a bad thing. It is the foundation of our democracy. If you don't love every single dissenting voice as the highest expression of what it really is to be American it's not the dissenter, it's YOU that are against America.

No, dissent leads to low morale and no support for the actions that need to be done.
A divideded country will NOT win a war. Ever. Period. This isnt the highest expression of America, its the clearest road to failure.

What about strategic blunders by our administration.

What about cutting Veterans' funds.



That's got to be the path to success.


:thumbsdown:

Strategic blunders.....

Like not negotiating with Iran a few years ago? Like moving in to Iraq as opposed to focusing solely on terrorists? Like not securing our borders?

I have no answer for that unfortunately. But, I ask what is yours?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Palehose, you're nuts though. Again you try to invoke the idea that dissent and disagreement in America is somehow a bad thing, and that it helps our enemies.

On the single issue of condemning Iran for their role in the death of Americans, our division IS a bad thing, and it DOES help our enemies. period.

We can disagree all day long about abortion, immigration, or the cost of health insurance -- each is an issue worth debating.

But, there is absolutely NO EXCUSE for siding with our enemies when the lives of our soldiers are at stake. There is no room for debate on this issue. Any American, who fails to condemn Iran for their participation in the deaths of American soldiers, disgusts me.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Palehose, you're nuts though. Again you try to invoke the idea that dissent and disagreement in America is somehow a bad thing, and that it helps our enemies. Dissent and disagreement is NEVER EVER EVER a bad thing. It is the foundation of our democracy. If you don't love every single dissenting voice as the highest expression of what it really is to be American it's not the dissenter, it's YOU that are against America.

No, dissent leads to low morale and no support for the actions that need to be done.
A divideded country will NOT win a war. Ever. Period. This isnt the highest expression of America, its the clearest road to failure.

You know if all the reasons the Dub and his handlers gave to convince us to support the invasion and occupation of Iraq would have been true then the dissent probably would have been a lot less. That's what happens when you deceive people, they tend not to support you and your actions.

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Palehose, you're nuts though. Again you try to invoke the idea that dissent and disagreement in America is somehow a bad thing, and that it helps our enemies. Dissent and disagreement is NEVER EVER EVER a bad thing. It is the foundation of our democracy. If you don't love every single dissenting voice as the highest expression of what it really is to be American it's not the dissenter, it's YOU that are against America.

No, dissent leads to low morale and no support for the actions that need to be done.
A divideded country will NOT win a war. Ever. Period. This isnt the highest expression of America, its the clearest road to failure.

You know if all the reasons the Dub and his handlers gave to convince us to support the invasion and occupation of Iraq would have been true then the dissent probably would have been a lot less. That's what happens when you deceive people, they tend not to support you and your actions.

Haha, I have to admit RD I cant entirely argue against that point.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
How many U.S.-supplied weapons are responsible for the death of how many Palestinians? How many Lebanese civilians? Should both of them declare war on America and start bombing us? Send us strongly-worded letters?

they already have declared America a sworn enemy, and would happily bomb us if they had the means to do so.

Are we responsible for those deaths since we supplied the weapons? Or are the Israelis responsible for pulling the trigger or dropping the cluster bombs? So many questions and not so many clear-cut answers.

they can certainly point the finger at America for supplying weapons to Israel, and others in the world; but, once again, it comes down to remembering and agreeing on this ultimate truth: We are on America's side...or, at least I am.

I believe that we are the good guys, with genuinely decent intentions. I believe the same of Israel and our other allies.

Now, if you believe otherwise, then you would have to admit to being on the enemies' sides in these conflicts. Is that the case?

The old Bush BS "If yer not with us your agin us". You've been trying to steer this debate so you can call those who disagree with you as traitors, I knew it from the start. Look Asshole, you are not anymore patriotic than the next guy, just more narrowminded

Ahhh Palehorsie trots out the spittle-spewing shouts of "traitor!" What a typical steaming turd you just dumped on the screen there. Why of course it's not hypocritical to on one hand supply our allies with weapons and weapon systems that kill Middle Eastern civilians/troops, but not OK on the other hand when Iran (allegedly) does the same thing to us.

Take your BS traitor commentary and stuff it. :|

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Palehose, you're nuts though. Again you try to invoke the idea that dissent and disagreement in America is somehow a bad thing, and that it helps our enemies. Dissent and disagreement is NEVER EVER EVER a bad thing. It is the foundation of our democracy. If you don't love every single dissenting voice as the highest expression of what it really is to be American it's not the dissenter, it's YOU that are against America.

No, dissent leads to low morale and no support for the actions that need to be done.
A divideded country will NOT win a war. Ever. Period. This isnt the highest expression of America, its the clearest road to failure.

What about strategic blunders by our administration.

What about cutting Veterans' funds.



That's got to be the path to success.


:thumbsdown:

Strategic blunders.....

Like not negotiating with Iran a few years ago? Like moving in to Iraq as opposed to focusing solely on terrorists? Like not securing our borders?

I have no answer for that unfortunately. But, I ask what is yours?

I don't disagree with you on those issues.

The problem I have is that you blame it all on dissent.


Even if it were true, how are you going to convince the vast majority of Americans that suddenly this war (and perhaps another in Iran, which you seem to be advocating) is now a good thing?

Do you really suggest that peoples thoughts should be controlled?

Dissent is Americans expressing their opinions. You want to quash that?

Good luck!

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
How many U.S.-supplied weapons are responsible for the death of how many Palestinians? How many Lebanese civilians? Should both of them declare war on America and start bombing us? Send us strongly-worded letters?

they already have declared America a sworn enemy, and would happily bomb us if they had the means to do so.

Are we responsible for those deaths since we supplied the weapons? Or are the Israelis responsible for pulling the trigger or dropping the cluster bombs? So many questions and not so many clear-cut answers.

they can certainly point the finger at America for supplying weapons to Israel, and others in the world; but, once again, it comes down to remembering and agreeing on this ultimate truth: We are on America's side...or, at least I am.

I believe that we are the good guys, with genuinely decent intentions. I believe the same of Israel and our other allies.

Now, if you believe otherwise, then you would have to admit to being on the enemies' sides in these conflicts. Is that the case?

The old Bush BS "If yer not with us your agin us". You've been trying to steer this debate so you can call those who disagree with you as traitors, I knew it from the start. Look Asshole, you are not anymore patriotic than the next guy, just more narrowminded

Ahhh Palehorsie trots out the spittle-spewing shouts of "traitor!" What a typical steaming turd you just dumped on the screen there. Why of course it's not hypocritical to on one hand supply our allies with weapons and weapon systems that kill Middle Eastern civilians/troops, but not OK on the other hand when Iran (allegedly) does the same thing to us.

Take your BS traitor commentary and stuff it. :|

I have not said the word "traitor" in any of my posts here... however, failing to condemn Iran for their participation in the death of American soldiers is certainly borderline criminal.

So, if the shoe fits...

 

[Acanthus]

Iran has a standing army of 800,000

And much better missle technology than Iraq ever had.

It would be an obscenely ugly war.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
How many U.S.-supplied weapons are responsible for the death of how many Palestinians? How many Lebanese civilians? Should both of them declare war on America and start bombing us? Send us strongly-worded letters?

they already have declared America a sworn enemy, and would happily bomb us if they had the means to do so.

Are we responsible for those deaths since we supplied the weapons? Or are the Israelis responsible for pulling the trigger or dropping the cluster bombs? So many questions and not so many clear-cut answers.

they can certainly point the finger at America for supplying weapons to Israel, and others in the world; but, once again, it comes down to remembering and agreeing on this ultimate truth: We are on America's side...or, at least I am.

I believe that we are the good guys, with genuinely decent intentions. I believe the same of Israel and our other allies.

Now, if you believe otherwise, then you would have to admit to being on the enemies' sides in these conflicts. Is that the case?

The old Bush BS "If yer not with us your agin us". You've been trying to steer this debate so you can call those who disagree with you as traitors, I knew it from the start. Look Asshole, you are not anymore patriotic than the next guy, just more narrowminded

Ahhh Palehorsie trots out the spittle-spewing shouts of "traitor!" What a typical steaming turd you just dumped on the screen there. Why of course it's not hypocritical to on one hand supply our allies with weapons and weapon systems that kill Middle Eastern civilians/troops, but not OK on the other hand when Iran (allegedly) does the same thing to us.

Take your BS traitor commentary and stuff it. :|

I have not said the word "traitor" in any of my posts here... however, failing to condemn Iran for their participation in the death of American soldiers is certainly borderline criminal.

So, if the shoe fits...

By your logic then failing to condemn the Saudi's and other Sunni Arab states in their participation in the deaths of American Soldiers is the same and Bush and his handlers are the biggest offenders.

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
How many U.S.-supplied weapons are responsible for the death of how many Palestinians? How many Lebanese civilians? Should both of them declare war on America and start bombing us? Send us strongly-worded letters?

they already have declared America a sworn enemy, and would happily bomb us if they had the means to do so.

Are we responsible for those deaths since we supplied the weapons? Or are the Israelis responsible for pulling the trigger or dropping the cluster bombs? So many questions and not so many clear-cut answers.

they can certainly point the finger at America for supplying weapons to Israel, and others in the world; but, once again, it comes down to remembering and agreeing on this ultimate truth: We are on America's side...or, at least I am.

I believe that we are the good guys, with genuinely decent intentions. I believe the same of Israel and our other allies.

Now, if you believe otherwise, then you would have to admit to being on the enemies' sides in these conflicts. Is that the case?

The old Bush BS "If yer not with us your agin us". You've been trying to steer this debate so you can call those who disagree with you as traitors, I knew it from the start. Look Asshole, you are not anymore patriotic than the next guy, just more narrowminded

Ahhh Palehorsie trots out the spittle-spewing shouts of "traitor!" What a typical steaming turd you just dumped on the screen there. Why of course it's not hypocritical to on one hand supply our allies with weapons and weapon systems that kill Middle Eastern civilians/troops, but not OK on the other hand when Iran (allegedly) does the same thing to us.

Take your BS traitor commentary and stuff it. :|

I have not said the word "traitor" in any of my posts here... however, failing to condemn Iran for their participation in the death of American soldiers is certainly borderline criminal.

So, if the shoe fits...

Nice flip-flop.

 

[Trianon]

Originally posted by: ntdz

That and a UN resolution giving us the right to be there, according to the UN.

Which UN resolution would that be?

 

[theeedude]

Nobody is in denial except maybe for neocons. People have been telling you warmongers this would happen BEFORE we went into Iraq. You were the ones in denial. Did you really not think Iran was going to get involved in Iraq? Why because we told them not to? Get real, people.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
How many U.S.-supplied weapons are responsible for the death of how many Palestinians? How many Lebanese civilians? Should both of them declare war on America and start bombing us? Send us strongly-worded letters?

they already have declared America a sworn enemy, and would happily bomb us if they had the means to do so.

Are we responsible for those deaths since we supplied the weapons? Or are the Israelis responsible for pulling the trigger or dropping the cluster bombs? So many questions and not so many clear-cut answers.

they can certainly point the finger at America for supplying weapons to Israel, and others in the world; but, once again, it comes down to remembering and agreeing on this ultimate truth: We are on America's side...or, at least I am.

I believe that we are the good guys, with genuinely decent intentions. I believe the same of Israel and our other allies.

Now, if you believe otherwise, then you would have to admit to being on the enemies' sides in these conflicts. Is that the case?

The old Bush BS "If yer not with us your agin us". You've been trying to steer this debate so you can call those who disagree with you as traitors, I knew it from the start. Look Asshole, you are not anymore patriotic than the next guy, just more narrowminded

Ahhh Palehorsie trots out the spittle-spewing shouts of "traitor!" What a typical steaming turd you just dumped on the screen there. Why of course it's not hypocritical to on one hand supply our allies with weapons and weapon systems that kill Middle Eastern civilians/troops, but not OK on the other hand when Iran (allegedly) does the same thing to us.

Take your BS traitor commentary and stuff it. :|

I have not said the word "traitor" in any of my posts here... however, failing to condemn Iran for their participation in the death of American soldiers is certainly borderline criminal.

So, if the shoe fits...

By your logic then failing to condemn the Saudi's and other Sunni Arab states in their participation in the deaths of American Soldiers is the same and Bush and his handlers are the biggest offenders.

fair enough. I even agree.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Nobody is in denial except maybe for neocons. People have been telling you warmongers this would happen BEFORE we went into Iraq. You were the ones in denial. Did you really not think Iran was going to get involved in Iraq? Why because we told them not to? Get real, people.

Knowing ahead of time that Iran would involve themselves in Iraq, against US interests, still does not excuse them for doing so.

Iran's direct, or indirect, involvement in the death of American soldiers is entirely unacceptable, and all Americans should unite in condemning them for it.

 

[theeedude]

I am sure condemning Iran will solve all of our problems. Maybe it's time to deal in reality and not wishful thinking. The reality is that everytime you engage in a long term occupation war, you open yourself up to having a proxy war waged on you by a third party. History has demonstrated that repeatedly. Of course the neocons ignored history entirely, because it's all different after Reagan won the cold war. 😀

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: senseamp
I am sure condemning Iran will solve all of our problems. Maybe it's time to deal in reality and not wishful thinking. The reality is that everytime you engage in a long term occupation war, you open yourself up to having a proxy war waged on you by a third party. History has demonstrated that repeatedly. Of course the neocons ignored history entirely, because it's all different after Reagan won the cold war. 😀

once again, none of that excuses Iran for their actions; which seems to be the intent of many people in this very thread.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: senseamp
Nobody is in denial except maybe for neocons. People have been telling you warmongers this would happen BEFORE we went into Iraq. You were the ones in denial. Did you really not think Iran was going to get involved in Iraq? Why because we told them not to? Get real, people.

Knowing ahead of time that Iran would involve themselves in Iraq, against US interests, still does not excuse them for doing so.

Iran's direct, or indirect, involvement in the death of American soldiers is entirely unacceptable, and all Americans should unite in condemning them for it.

I don't remember them asking to be excused for it. If you want to deal in feel good gestures, or statements of condemnation, that's your call. It's more productive to deal in reality. And reality is that Iran will act in its own interest. And it's in their interest to counteract US occupation of Iraq because one of the goals of that occupation, as stated by many neocons, was to establish a foothold from which to threaten Iran. We may not like it, true, but it's the reality. And it was ENTIRELY PREDICTABLE.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: senseamp
I am sure condemning Iran will solve all of our problems. Maybe it's time to deal in reality and not wishful thinking. The reality is that everytime you engage in a long term occupation war, you open yourself up to having a proxy war waged on you by a third party. History has demonstrated that repeatedly. Of course the neocons ignored history entirely, because it's all different after Reagan won the cold war. 😀

once again, none of that excuses Iran for their actions; which seems to be the intent of many people in this very thread.

Why does it matter if it excuses Iran or not? How does that change anything? You are just using it to bash people who are giving you a reality check, that we are somehow excusing this or that. Iran is not asking to be excused by the American public. It's acting in its own interest, I don't think Iran ever claimed to be acting in the American interest or wanted to be excused for anything.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: senseamp
Nobody is in denial except maybe for neocons. People have been telling you warmongers this would happen BEFORE we went into Iraq. You were the ones in denial. Did you really not think Iran was going to get involved in Iraq? Why because we told them not to? Get real, people.

Knowing ahead of time that Iran would do involve themselves in Iraq, against US interests, still does not excuse them for doing so.

No but a Strategist would have planned for it and taken measures to reduce it's effect. Maybe we have done that and this Administration is exagerating the minimal effect for propaganda reasons and to try to divert attention away from the real problems there.

What would be really outrageous and more likely to stir the average Americans ire is if they were actively taking part in attacks against Americans. I guess that report will come out next week when this one doesn't divert enough attention away from how dismal this war is going for us. I'd also like to add that if we were being successful and we actually had the majority of the Iraqi population behind us almost nothing the Iranians could do would be very successful.

BTW, notice how the accusations about the Iranians being behind that suprise attack on American Soldiers has quieted down now that it's been determined that it was an Iraqi General who was behind it, a guy who supposedly was on our side? I wonder how many Iraqis who we believe are on our side really are covertly fighting against us.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Let me see if I can understand what you are trying to sell....er...tell us Prof

The SUNNI led government of Iran is providing arms to the SHIA insurgency in Iraq to undermine the SUNNI government in Iraq that has repeatedly reached out to it.

Yeah, that makes perfect logical sense.

Bwuhahahah. Excuse me for laughing. :laugh:

With that level of knowlegde you have proven that you are fit for a high government position. I refer to some of our leaders who don't know the difference between Sunni & Shia.

However, Iran is SHIA Muslim country, contrary to your assertion.

Fern

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: senseamp
I am sure condemning Iran will solve all of our problems. Maybe it's time to deal in reality and not wishful thinking. The reality is that everytime you engage in a long term occupation war, you open yourself up to having a proxy war waged on you by a third party. History has demonstrated that repeatedly. Of course the neocons ignored history entirely, because it's all different after Reagan won the cold war. 😀

once again, none of that excuses Iran for their actions; which seems to be the intent of many people in this very thread.

Why does it matter if it excuses Iran or not? How does that change anything? You are just using it to bash people who are giving you a reality check, that we are somehow excusing this or that. Iran is not asking to be excused by the American public. It's acting in its own interest, I don't think Iran ever claimed to be acting in the American interest or wanted to be excused for anything.

Please explain how killing American troops in IRaq is in Irans "best interests"?

 

[zinfamous]

so, what about all of the American-made weapons that the insurgents are using to kill our troops? During the early days of the invasion, the strategy was to press on. Many sockpiles were abandoned, rather carelessly, and have served the insurgents well.

Because of this, we can just as easily argue that we are supplying them with weapons. What's your point?