FiringSquad does image quality comparisons...again

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
I might believe you could see some texel shimmering in High Performance mode, particuarly on G70/G71 where Performance/High Performance modes are much worse than they were on NV40, but I certainly don't believe you can see such an issue in quality mode. I certainly do not in the scene you are referencing (just like the SOF intro didn't jerk around like a drunkard for me and COD didn't show madly fluctuating frame rates). If you are seeing anything untoward at all in such an ancient game, it will be related to the developer not taking nvidia's texel coordinate system into account (just like NOLF). It's no great secret that the developers of Serious Sam prefer ATi to nvidia, the latest installment was a GITG effort.

Why anyone would be seriously interested in playing or the IQ of such a stupid title is beyond me anyhow, but its unsuprising this is the sort of game you would like. You may want to try Painkiller if you think SS is good. These games are way too mindless for me though and I wouldn't own them if they didn't come as part graphics card bundles.

You certainly have a way of introducing irrelevant and contradictory points into your weak counterarguments.

So your defense in this thread is:

1.) The issues are the developer's fault
2.) The issues are the result of someone doing "something dumb"
3.) You don't see them
4.) Said games are old, mindless, "stupid" and why anyone is interested in IQ in these games is beyond you

Which one is it? You sound exactly like Rollo in his heyday.

When an argment has this many contradictory points, it's complete nonsense... Pick a point and stick with it man!

------------------

It's really very cut and dry.

-Nvidia defaults to "Quality" because High Quality gives a performance hit (double digit percentage)
-"Quality" has a number of problems, including shimmering textures, etc
-Therefore, Nvidia, with stock driver settings, compromises visual quality in order to get a higher framerate.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: josh6079
It was a question, not an accusation. Thankyou for clarifying an answer.

You still have yet to clarify:

[*]How it is a game engine defect when the driver settings can determine whether it happens or not.

[*]How does the developers favor for ATI hardware support your claim that the problem is nonexistent on Nvidia hardware at default Q settings.

[*]How Open GL extensions, deviceid's, or capbits relate to the wiggling textures apparent on Nvidia's default driver settings.

[*]Why you suggest turning the conformant texture clamp on (which is already on to begin with as well as Open GL restricted) yet also claim that it is the game's graphic engine problem and not the drivers.

[*]Why you are so defensive to what others claim to be poor default driver settings, even if the problem can be fixed within its other settings.

Josh, Josh, Josh..... Is it really worth another two weeks (if you're lucky) to keep this up? I mean, it's as if you don't care, or at least don't remember your vacation. It's not worth it dude. Soon this argument will intensify into insults, and then flat out become abomidable. For pages and pages and pages. Just like what happened with you and beggerking.
Point is........ Know when to call it a day.

I see nothing in Josh's response that is derogatory or inflammatory. Perhaps your time would be better spent warning people like housecat or Rollo.





Oh, wait....

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: schneiderguy

Originally posted by: Ackmed
And yes, its still there with drivers set to HQ. Still easily seen, and annoying.

no, it isnt. with all optimizations OFF, there is no visible shimmering on nvidia cards, unless you're purpusely putting your face an inch from the monitor to look for it.

What monitor do you have? Setting drivers to HQ does not turn all ops off.

Still mad about the other thread?

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: schneiderguy

Originally posted by: Ackmed
And yes, its still there with drivers set to HQ. Still easily seen, and annoying.

no, it isnt. with all optimizations OFF, there is no visible shimmering on nvidia cards, unless you're purpusely putting your face an inch from the monitor to look for it.

What monitor do you have? Setting drivers to HQ does not turn all ops off.

Still mad about the other thread?

Yes, actually it DOES turn all optimizations off Ackmed. Where did you read that it doesn't or is this something that your fevered imagination dreamed up? Perhaps you had a discussion about it at a focus group somewhere....

 

[LittleNemoNES]

keep your cool or I will refer you folks to the baninator.

 

[schneiderguy]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

What monitor do you have?

HP F1905 19inch LCD

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Setting drivers to HQ does not turn all ops off.

yes it does. i thought you said you used to own nvidia cards?

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Still mad about the other thread?

what other thread?

 

[BFG10K]

I might believe you could see some texel shimmering in High Performance mode, particuarly on G70/G71 where Performance/High Performance modes are much worse than they were on NV40, but I certainly don't believe you can see such an issue in quality mode.

Set your card to HQ and start the "Silent Cartographer" mission in Halo and watch the water as you fly across it on the ship. It still shimmers even on HQ but not on my X800XL using default settings.

And no, what you think of the game is irrelevant so don't even think of posting it.

I certainly do not in the scene you are referencing (just like the SOF intro didn't jerk around like a drunkard for me and COD didn't show madly fluctuating frame rates).

Yet it's interesting how you managed to "see" HDR + AA in Far Cry despite it not existing.

Also you'd better tell nVidia they were making up those bugs given 91.31 fixed the problems I reported to them while you were in denial over them.

If you are seeing anything untoward at all in such an ancient game, it will be related to the developer not taking nvidia's texel coordinate system into account (just like NOLF).

Why you keep parroting this is beyond me.

It's quite simple: Q causes texture wiggling. HQ does not. Q offers unacceptable image quality even with all optimizations off and with LOD clamp engaged.

It's no great secret that the developers of Serious Sam prefer ATi to nvidia, the latest installment was a GITG effort.

Serious Sam was released long becfore GITG existed. Also I suppose you're going ot tell me that Doom 3 and Quake 4 prefer ATi too given their textures wiggle under Q too, right?

Why anyone would be seriously interested in playing or the IQ of such a stupid title is beyond me anyhow, but its unsuprising this is the sort of game you would like.

Sorry your Lordship, but us Peasants sometimes do prefer more common games. :roll:

These games are way too mindless for me though and I wouldn't own them if they didn't come as part graphics card bundles.

Totally and utterly irrelevant to your original denial of the texture wiggling problem. As usual you respond with useless rhetoric and irrelevant tangents.

You not liking a game doesn't make your claim correct that the textures don't wiggle so stop posting simpleton and obtuse responses.

 

[Gstanfor]

No, I don't see shimmering water in that Halo level (and yes, I do think Halo is an overrated game and I'll post my opinion when and wherever it pleases me to).

You can't have it both ways BFG10K, first you tell me I'll see shimmering in HQ (halo) then you turn around and say:

Q causes texture wiggling. HQ does not.

Make your mind up! which is it?

No, GITG didn't exist back then, I know that - croteam were 3dfx lovers back then and like most 3dfx lovers they went scurrying to ATi as fast as their little legs could take them when 3dfx imploded.

 

[josh6079]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
No, I don't see shimmering water in that Halo level...

If you weren't such a previously proven biased person, there wouldn't be any trouble considering your claims. However, given the fact that other members who have mixed and matched ATI and Nvidia hardware instead of moving from a 6 series to a 7 series conclude that the default "Quality" settings for Nvidia display more of the above issues.

...(and yes, I do think Halo is an overrated game and I'll post my opinion when and wherever it pleases me to).

That's why half of the time goes to clearing up the thread of details that do not concern it. If you are right, explain how maturely instead of claiming that others are substance abusers.

You can't have it both ways BFG10K, first you tell me I'll see shimmering in HQ (halo) then you turn around and say:

Q causes texture wiggling. HQ does not.

Make your mind up! which is it?

Texture wiggling is not the same as shimmering. Perhaps that's why you are having trouble spotting it.

No, GITG didn't exist back then, I know that - croteam were 3dfx lovers back then and like most 3dfx lovers they went scurrying to ATi as fast as their little legs could take them when 3dfx imploded.

This detour topic is only being discussed because you introduced it. Remain on topic and address the questions/issues that pertain to image quality and its corresponding settings.

 

[Gstanfor]

There is nothing moving on my screen that the game didn't intend to be moving. The only "wiggly textures" i've ever seen are those that deliberately made to wiggle (thorugh animation), like water/lava in games like doom/quake etc.

 

[josh6079]

There is something on others screens though, which is just as relevant as your case of not having it. Not all issues are universal.

 

[Gstanfor]

I don't doubt it for a second. I do doubt the video card has anything whatsoever to do with it though...

 

[redbox]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
I don't doubt it for a second. I do doubt the video card has anything whatsoever to do with it though...

Ok now that you don't doubt that other users are seeing wiggling textures. Most of us aren't saying that it is the video card that is doing it, although it seams that ATI cards have less problems with this, what we are saying is from Q to HQ on Nvidia there is a noticable difference to some users. You may not see a difference and that is fine. I have a friend who can't see the difference between AA and no AA. Everyone is different.

You are partialy right that the video card doesn't have anything to do with it. Some users have switched to HQ to get rid of the wiggling, and some have switched to differnt video cards to get rid of it. I do believe that a certain game can have more texture problems than another and probably do better with a certain card or another. So I come from the camp that this isn't just a Q HQ thing, or a red vs. green thing, or even game developers, but rather a mixture of all of them. The best ways though to solve it seam to be switching to HQ or getting an ATI card. And that is unfortunate because then people start to turn it into a red vs. green thing.

Kudos to you if you can't see the wiggling or texture crawling or whatever they want to call it. That just means it's one less problem you have to worry about. I wish I couldn't see the difference between AA and no AA like my friend cause then I could get more fps.

 

[Gstanfor]

I've never once stated that I can't see the difference between Quality and High Quality. What I've pointed out in this thread is that it is perfectly possible to minimise the effects of shimmering in Quality mode 99% of the time. Of course, the result will be better still in HQ, but thats beside the point.

Trust me, I don't have your friends AA problem, i'm quite sensitive to out of place pixels. I generally don't run at less than 8xS AA with SS:TRAA layered on top.

 

[CaiNaM]

don't fret redbox. personally i don't think Gstanfor's issue is one of vision, rather one of objectivity; but that's just me.

the shimmering issue is apparent, and doesn't go away "99% of the time" when using HQ. clamping LOD and using HQ does remove it for the most part. this issue really didn't bother me with nv40, but it did become noticeable with the 7800.

it also exists in a few situatins on ati cards, but not to the same extent, and not nearly in as many circumstances.

 

[BFG10K]

No, I don't see shimmering water in that Halo level

You're either lying or you don't know what shimmering is.

Given you claimed you could see AA + HDR in Far Cry it's anyone's guess as to which of the two it is.

You can't have it both ways BFG10K, first you tell me I'll see shimmering in HQ (halo) then you turn around and say:

Err, texture wiggling is not the same as shimmering. If you stopped discussing irrelevant tangents you might realise this.

No, GITG didn't exist back then, I know that - croteam were 3dfx lovers back then and like most 3dfx lovers they went scurrying to ATi as fast as their little legs could take them when 3dfx imploded.

More irrelevant rhetoric. Do you do it on purpose or can you simply not help yourself?

I do doubt the video card has anything whatsoever to do with it though...

It doesn't really matter what you doubt given it has no bearing on reality.

What I've pointed out in this thread is that it is perfectly possible to minimise the effects of shimmering in Quality mode 99% of the time

And what I've pointed is that texture wiggling - which is not the same as shimmering - is very prominent under Q in some games.

 

[coldpower27]

Originally posted by: gersson
This argument keeps going because some people REFUSE to accept that the nvidia default drivers favor speed over image quality. All it takes is a few tweaks and that is changed. However, nvidia currently takes a big hit when doing that.

Since a lot of review sites do not do this, it gives the false impression that the games are running @ equal image quality settings and skews the fps results. NOT in ATI's favor, I might add.

This is ATI's problem then that the reviews do not beleive it's enough of an issue to warrant, turning Q to HQ on Nvidia video cards.

Image Quality remains a subjective issue since it is a qualitative quanitity.

 

[Hadsus]

Originally posted by: coldpower27

Originally posted by: gersson
This argument keeps going because some people REFUSE to accept that the nvidia default drivers favor speed over image quality. All it takes is a few tweaks and that is changed. However, nvidia currently takes a big hit when doing that.

Since a lot of review sites do not do this, it gives the false impression that the games are running @ equal image quality settings and skews the fps results. NOT in ATI's favor, I might add.

Image Quality....is a qualitative quantity.

Heeheee.........

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: schneiderguy

Originally posted by: Ackmed
And yes, its still there with drivers set to HQ. Still easily seen, and annoying.

no, it isnt. with all optimizations OFF, there is no visible shimmering on nvidia cards, unless you're purpusely putting your face an inch from the monitor to look for it.

What monitor do you have? Setting drivers to HQ does not turn all ops off.

Still mad about the other thread?

Yes, actually it DOES turn all optimizations off Ackmed. Where did you read that it doesn't or is this something that your fevered imagination dreamed up? Perhaps you had a discussion about it at a focus group somewhere....

No, it doesnt, go the advanced view.

Grow up some, and stop resorting to insults. It doesnt help you at all.

Originally posted by: schneiderguy

Originally posted by: Ackmed

What monitor do you have?

HP F1905 19inch LCD

Then dont assume you know what I am seeing. I do not have to put my face an inch from the screen. Ive said before many times, and so have reviewers, that shimmering is much more noticable on a bigger LCD.

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Setting drivers to HQ does not turn all ops off.

yes it does. i thought you said you used to own nvidia cards?[/quote]

I have, many more than you I would bet. And no, turning HQ on, doesnt turn off all ops. Look above for an answer for that.

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Still mad about the other thread?

what other thread?
[/quote]

Where you tried to do what you're doing now, and it didnt work out so well.

 

[redbox]

Originally posted by: coldpower27

Originally posted by: gersson
This argument keeps going because some people REFUSE to accept that the nvidia default drivers favor speed over image quality. All it takes is a few tweaks and that is changed. However, nvidia currently takes a big hit when doing that.

Since a lot of review sites do not do this, it gives the false impression that the games are running @ equal image quality settings and skews the fps results. NOT in ATI's favor, I might add.

This is ATI's problem then that the reviews do not beleive it's enough of an issue to warrant, turning Q to HQ on Nvidia video cards.

Image Quality remains a subjective issue since it is a qualitative quanitity.

The problem is some review sites do factor in the IQ and bench both at HQ. The main reason I believe anandtech doesn't do this for Nvidia is because nvidia tells review sites to bench with Q instead of HQ. You are right that Image Quality is a subjective issue but that doesn't stop review sites from crowning IQ champs, and it shouldn't keep them from at least benching and looking at the performance hit, which is a quanititative measure that would give people hard numbers to look at and make a decision.

 

[Gstanfor]

Once again Ackmed, yes, the HQ mode does turn OFF all the optimizations, advanced view or not. You are on a hiding to nothing here, trust me.

 

[schneiderguy]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

No, it doesnt, go the advanced view.

yes it does. turn HQ on, then click on the "anisotropic mip filter optimization" or "anisotopic sample optimization", you cannot turn them ON while in HQ mode. See?

Originally posted by: AckmedWhere you tried to do what you're doing now, and it didnt work out so well.

what am i doing here? all im saying is that you're incorrect

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Once again Ackmed, yes, the HQ mode does turn OFF all the optimizations, advanced view or not. You are on a hiding to nothing here, trust me.

here's a reasonable question: since nv hardware is incapable of "angle independant" AF (the GF4 did, which is why their AF was so much better than r300), how do you turn "angle dependant" AF off?

 

[schneiderguy]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

how do you turn "angle dependant" AF off?

you dont?

 

[CKXP]

it's tricky, but the optimizations will still be enabled even if you switch to HQ in the NV control panel and you have a third party OC utilty installed(Rivatuner) ...the optimizations will still be enabled in the Intellisample tab for both Direct 3D tweaks and OpenGL tweaks. you will have to manually disable them.

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