FiringSquad does image quality comparisons...again

[imported_Kiwi]

Originally posted by: dug777

Originally posted by: yacoub
Interesting. As I wrote in their comments:

I recently upgraded from an X800XL to a 7900GT. Fresh out of the box, the 7900GT on 91.33 drivers playing CS:Source's cs_assault mission was absolutely HORRID.

Agreed.
It was a real shock when i went from the 9800 pro to a 6600GT.

Why anyone would use anything below HQ/BQ is beyond me

I've recently put a Leadtek 6600 GT in a PC (this one I'm typing my reply on), that previously had an FX 5900 plain in it. I'd tested the Oblivion game some right at the start using this machine (the game box had been torn down to cannibalize its case and PSU to use on a newer project).

Now, with a really great Cooler Master Centurion case, a Themaltake 420 PSU, and a Radeon 9800 XT, I've enjoyed that game until last month, then just haven't put much time into it lately. With a new character to play, and a video card I had thought ought to work, I restarted the test game install on here. Poor image by comparison.

Anyone familiar with the game will recall the exit from the beginner dungeon's sewer grating onto City Isle. The water and other outdoor scenery should be breathtakingly beautiful. Not with the 6600 GT. The water is ugly unless standing with the character's feet ankle-deep in it.

Sad. The 9800 XT is a year older than a 6600 GT, and yet it represents a higher standard of image quality (I will have to see what an upgrade to drivers will do). I suppose I also need to manually tweak everything. The ATI card was fine without any tweaking other than thinning out the grass.

 

[redbox]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Which only proves that large screen LCD's have serious issues, not seen with alternative (and superior) technologies...

I wouldn't say that. The shimmering issues are a video card problem which we are discussing. Now if you where to be talking about input lag, banding, ghosting, or backlight bleeding then you would be correct large screen LCD's have more problems in some of those areas than do some of the smaller ones. However that would be a different discussion and require it's own thread and frankly it has already been discussed to it's end.

Stop trying to pass the buck on the shimmering issue.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Which only proves that large screen LCD's have serious issues, not seen with alternative (and superior) technologies...

EDIT: I've had my 7900GT running on a mates LG 50" HD plasma TV, 1366x768 res (using component input, naturally). I didn't notice an appreciable difference in shimmering compared to my normal monitor at all. I think the large screen argument is just a silly red herring.

It proves the action is more in your face. Obviously its easier to see a "problem" when a screen is larger.

You used a larger screen, and then a lower res. You can think its a red herring if you want, the fact is, larger monitors, show it more than smaller ones, with lower resolutions.

Get over the fact, that shimmering is real. And its a real problem to some people.

 

[Gstanfor]

Frankly, it sounds to me like what ackmed sees is some sort of scaling artifact on his LCD. From what I've seen with my own eyes large screens (the one I saw was twice as large as his "large screen") doesn't induce *any* more shimmering than any other monitor...

 

[xtknight]

There is no problem with the monitor (be it a sharp CRT, LCD, plasma, or otherwise). Refusing to accept that is just flat out ignorance and denial. The monitor is only showing what is sent to it (and perfectly so in the case of DVI). The graphics card is supposed to do all the processing, such as antialiasing or texture filtering, to ensure a smooth and high quality image. That's not the monitor's responsibility. If the GPU outputs an image with sharp edges and shimmering, that's its fault.

The size of the screen isn't a direct factor. It's either your eyes/visual acuity or the dot pitch/resolution. The issue will be bad with a small dot pitch and high resolution like a 24" LCD. Not so much with a 19" LCD. FWIW, I could see the shimmering problem just fine on my 19" as well.

 

[Gstanfor]

I have no problem spotting shimmering where it is present (or I wouldn't have been able to help dug777 reduce it in a thread a long time back.

I have one of the best 19" monitors on the market (the Philips 109P20 with a Diamondtron tube and professional/industrial grade electronics supporting the tube) and my eyes can resolve fine detail just fine thanks.

 

[josh6079]

Once again we know you don't see anything wrong with your Nvidia GPU's output of graphical detail. The point is, several other sites and other less biased members do. Both carry their own set of quirks that show up on our screens from time to time. You trying to hide the fact that your video card is an exception that breaks the boundries of normality is just as absurd as trying to blame video game developers, LCD realestates, or OpenGL extensions.

 

[Gstanfor]

No, I'm saying that shimmering is not dependent on monitor size like some would have us believe.

 

[Elfear]

Shimmering with my 7800GTs was more readily apparent on my 2405fpw than my 2005fpw. I almost sent my 24" monitor back because the shimmering (and tearing with SLI) made it look inferior to my 20". I noticed it the most in Source-based games. Switching to an X1900XT fixed the problem.

 

[redbox]

Originally posted by: xtknight

The size of the screen isn't a direct factor. It's either your eyes/visual acuity or the dot pitch/resolution. The issue will be bad with a small dot pitch and high resolution like a 24" LCD. Not so much with a 19" LCD. FWIW, I could see the shimmering problem just fine on my 19" as well.

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
No, I'm saying that shimmering is not dependent on monitor size like some would have us believe.

No you where saying that there are problems with the bigger monitors that make it look like shimmering. Yet another attempt to pass the buck on the simmering issue that doesn't involve an nvidia card or setting being the problem.

Some would say xtknight is probably the best resource on LCDs on Anandtech, yet you feel that he is wrong. That isn't supprising in the least. Give it up. Do you need us to create a poll and show you just how many people see shimmering with nvidia cards at Q or notice it more with a bigger screen?

 

[Gstanfor]

What I did was suggest that perhaps ackmed was seeing scaling problems. This was AFTER I stated that monitor size didn't unfluence the level of shimmering.

I think its quite a reasonable suggestion given that scaling issues are extremely common with lcd's (along with many other issues - LCD's are garbage display units IMO and aside from physical size I'll never understand how they got to be as popular as they are - just shows how much like a flock of sheep most consumers are...)

There isn't an established universal standard for dealing with LCD scaling (at either the monitor level or driver level) and both nvidia & ATi handle scaling differently in their drivers. Perhaps ackmed tries to set his nvidia card up like his ATi card with regard to scaling?

 

[josh6079]

I found a clip here that shows two scenes side by side--one powered by an Nvidia GPU, the other by an X1950XTX. Pay attention to the left side of the train tracks, the transistions in the rocks and gravel show more shimmering on the Nvidia portion than the ATI portion. (You know they labled the sides correctly because the AA is more definitive on the left side.)

It takes about 3 mins. or so to download, but gives a good real time comparison.

Link

 

[xtknight]

Actually I think the two main factors are resolution and contrast. The Dell (and many 24" S-PVA screens) have a very high contrast (leaning high on the white level side), so that'll make it and everything else a lot more apparent. With a high resolution, you just get more of that crawling dot effect in a smaller space, and that just makes it that much worse.

 

[josh6079]

I have one of the best 19" monitors on the market (the Philips 109P20 with a Diamondtron tube and professional/industrial grade electronics supporting the tube) and my eyes can resolve fine detail just fine thanks.

Isn't that monitor restricted to a VGA interface?

 

[schneiderguy]

Originally posted by: josh6079

I have one of the best 19" monitors on the market (the Philips 109P20 with a Diamondtron tube and professional/industrial grade electronics supporting the tube) and my eyes can resolve fine detail just fine thanks.

Isn't that monitor restricted to a VGA interface?

most CRT's are

 

[schneiderguy]

Originally posted by: josh6079

Link

I seriously doubt anyone could reliably tell the difference between a game being rendered by an ATI card and a nVidia card after looking at that video

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: schneiderguy

Originally posted by: josh6079

I have one of the best 19" monitors on the market (the Philips 109P20 with a Diamondtron tube and professional/industrial grade electronics supporting the tube) and my eyes can resolve fine detail just fine thanks.

Isn't that monitor restricted to a VGA interface?

most CRT's are

All CRTS use the same signal (well, my 21" has BNC (?) as well...), but some use DVI-A (top end IBM ones for example) which is effectively a glorified VGA adapter...i think, correct me if i'm wrong

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: schneiderguy

Originally posted by: josh6079

Link

I seriously doubt anyone could reliably tell the difference between a game being rendered by an ATI card and a nVidia card after looking at that video

Having made an overnight transition from a 9800 Pro to a 6600GT i can promise you i noticed the difference immediately...

& that was before i encountered those asslike shadows Nvidia renders in Farcry

 

[Gstanfor]

It's an Analog CRT so has no use for DVI inputs. It does have (and I use) seperated RGB + V-sync + H-sync bayonet coaxial connectors (BNC) in addition to the normal VGA connector.

 

[josh6079]

Originally posted by: schneiderguy

Originally posted by: josh6079

Link

I seriously doubt anyone could reliably tell the difference between a game being rendered by an ATI card and a nVidia card after looking at that video

I could tell primarily because of the shimmering and the better AA on the left, while the right side had better AF, but completely transparent AA; the fences and upper crossrailings were nonexistent. In retrospect, this thread isn't about whether or not some could distinguish the difference, but to look at what the differences are. Some couldn't tell the difference between 50 frames and 70 frames but that doesn't stop sites from lableing which one is which.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Frankly, it sounds to me like what ackmed sees is some sort of scaling artifact on his LCD. From what I've seen with my own eyes large screens (the one I saw was twice as large as his "large screen") doesn't induce *any* more shimmering than any other monitor...

With much less resolution. Its not even close to the same thing. Read the HardOCP link I dropped.

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
I have one of the best 19" monitors on the market (the Philips 109P20 with a Diamondtron tube and professional/industrial grade electronics supporting the tube) and my eyes can resolve fine detail just fine thanks.

Thanks for validating my position. As in, you dont know whats happening, or not happening, as you have a much smaller monitor that I do, with a much smaller res.

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
What I did was suggest that perhaps ackmed was seeing scaling problems. This was AFTER I stated that monitor size didn't unfluence the level of shimmering.

There is no scaling problems. And monitor size does influence the level of shimmering. Your TV you used, has a much smaller res. I said before, the size of the monitor (not TV) and resolution (as did Hard) make shimmering stand out much more.

You and schneiderguy cannot form an opinion, as you are not using a larger LCD, with a higher res. For you, shimmering may not be an issue, and thats a good thing. For me, and many others, it is. We're not making it up. Reviewers are not making it up. You need to get over the fact that NV shimmers worse than ATi. And certain hardware and games, shows shimmers worse than others.

Originally posted by: schneiderguy

Originally posted by: josh6079

Link

I seriously doubt anyone could reliably tell the difference between a game being rendered by an ATI card and a nVidia card after looking at that video

Actually, its very easy. For one, ATi's AF on the wall looks much, much better. For two, NV shimmers worse. You can easily see shimmering "waves" or blocks of part of the left side of the road shimmering. Its pretty easy to see. Even the trees for NV look horrible, and shimmer a lot. Of course, you have to have an objective eye to see it.

As for AA, you can see more fence for the NV card, yet its not complete. ATi's fence doesnt show as much links, but overall I like it more.

 

[Gstanfor]

My monitor can go as high as 2048 * 1536 @50 hz or 1920 * 1440 @72 hz. Unfortunately at those refresh rates the display is all but unbearable, however, my monitor *is* capable of very high resolutions.

Not that that has *anything* to do with shimmering.

So long as the display device has rougly the same amount of pixels as the resolution you are trying to display on it you will get a damn near perfect picture.

I'd expect the LG television to show weird artifacts if I attempted to feed it 1600*1200 or 800*600 and the display had to scale. Thats not what I did though, I ran it at its native resolution.

If you are not running your LCD at its native resolution then so far as I'm concerned anything you claim about display quality is null and void.

I agree with xtknight that almost all lcd's I've ever seen/used are offensively bright (and are very hard to adjust for reasonable contrast to boot).

 

[BFG10K]

Which only proves that large screen LCD's have serious issues, not seen with alternative (and superior) technologies...

It doesn't prove that at all.

LCDs may be inferior for certain things but you're using them as a red herring as the problem here is the card, not the display.

I have 19" Sony CPD-G420 which is one of the best 19" CRTs ever made and I can still see shimmering in rare places under HQ.

I've already pointed out the Halo water level and others include the Serious Sam 2 swamp water and Far Cry's water at long distances.

Those same sections don't shimmer on my X800XL with default settings with the same monitor.

Now having said that my X800XL has texture wiggling in games like Undying while my 7900 GTX under HQ doesn't have this problem.

 

[Gstanfor]

Keep reading Dweeb.

And I'll happily put my Philips monitor up against your Sony anytime. The Diamondtron tube is superior to the Trinitron and I'll guarantee the electronics in the Philips are way above the crap that Sony loves consumers to pay through the nose for. In short, your monitor may have the "prestige" (at least where clueless consumers are concerned) name, but mine has the prestige components...

 

[BFG10K]

Keep reading Dweeb.

If you persist in these insults I'll start reporting you to the mods. I'm sick and tired of watching your mouth run rampant whenever it feels like it.

And I'll happily put my Philips monitor up against your Sony anytime

They did and it came out on top.

To quote them:

This Sony flat-CRT is simply the top choice if you"re in the market for a 19in monitor

And yes, they tested your 109P as well.

Even better:

109P20 - 4 stars.
G420 - 5 stars.

Also given you claimed to see HDR + AA in Far Cry on your nVidia card your vision has zero credibility anyway.

And what, now you're telling us that the rest of the world sees shimmering because they don't have your special monitor? :roll:

The Diamondtron tube is superior to the Trinitron and I'll guarantee the electronics in the Philips are way above the crap that Sony loves consumers to pay through the nose for. In short, your monitor may have the "prestige" (at least where clueless consumers are concerned) name, but mine has the prestige components...

I love it how you think you're so right despite not having a clue what you're talking about.