Firearms and Dementia

[fskimospy]

I agree youre more likely to die from your own gun than if you never had one (duh). What I disagree with is your opinion (its ok to agree to disagree). And more, speaking of absurd, is getting guns off the streets. Thats laughable.

What opinion do you disagree with, specifically? Do we agree that owning a gun makes you less safe? This is what almost all empirical research shows, after all.

Most of the time the only people who suffer from gun restrictions are legal gun owners, and people who respect the rule of law. Making guns illegal wont do a thing for those who have guns illegally. And Im willing to bet it wont persuade legal gun owners to simply hand over their guns. Whats your solution for that?

No one is ‘suffering’ in this case, as we already established that we are actually doing the average person a favor when we make guns harder to keep in the home. If we could do a better job of educating people that owning a gun is a dumb idea maybe fewer people would make the mistake in purchasing one to begin with.

Regardless, one thing at a time. While my goal is most certainly to ban the ownership of all guns I’ll take any steps we can on the route to that. To say it can’t be done flies in the face of all the places where for most intents and purposes it has been done.

edit: Also, although there isnt much data on this, much of the data that does exist says most gun crimes happen with guns illegally obtained.

https://www.politifact.com/new-york...egal-gun-owners-commit-most-gun-crime-rep-fa/

That’s not relevant to my point, which is that gun ownership for the purposes of self protection is irrational as it makes you less safe. This is all about why the average person should elect not to own a gun out of common sense.

 

[Jhhnn]

I agree youre more likely to die from your own gun than if you never had one (duh). What I disagree with is your opinion (its ok to agree to disagree). And more, speaking of absurd, is getting guns off the streets. Thats laughable.

Most of the time the only people who suffer from gun restrictions are legal gun owners, and people who respect the rule of law. Making guns illegal wont do a thing for those who have guns illegally. And Im willing to bet it wont persuade legal gun owners to simply hand over their guns. Whats your solution for that?

edit: Also, although there isnt much data on this, much of the data that does exist says most gun crimes happen with guns illegally obtained.

https://www.politifact.com/new-york...egal-gun-owners-commit-most-gun-crime-rep-fa/

Virtually every gun in this country was obtained by the original owner in a legal fashion. It's nigh onto impossible for them to be controlled after that. It's been happening for a long time, leading to us having more guns than people in this country.

If we banned the manufacture & sale of new guns tomorrow there would still be plenty to go around.

 

[shortylickens]

Virtually every gun in this country was obtained by the original owner in a legal fashion. It's nigh onto impossible for them to be controlled after that. It's been happening for a long time, leading to us having more guns than people in this country.

If we banned the manufacture & sale of new guns tomorrow there would still be plenty to go around.

And like cocaine & horse porn, people would just import it from south America. Because they want it so badly they dont care about the law.

 

[blackangst1]

What opinion do you disagree with, specifically? Do we agree that owning a gun makes you less safe? This is what almost all empirical research shows, after all.

That you think "my goal is most certainly to ban the ownership of all guns I’ll take any steps we can on the route to that. " is the best thing.

No one is ‘suffering’ in this case, as we already established that we are actually doing the average person a favor when we make guns harder to keep in the home. If we could do a better job of educating people that owning a gun is a dumb idea maybe fewer people would make the mistake in purchasing one to begin with.

Again, I disagree. Instead of educating keeping guns in the home is a dumb idea, how about owning a gun without formal security training is a dumb idea? Thats much better IMHO.

And you know I didnt use the word suffering" in the literal sense. Cmon man.

Regardless, one thing at a time. While my goal is most certainly to ban the ownership of all guns I’ll take any steps we can on the route to that. To say it can’t be done flies in the face of all the places where for most intents and purposes it has been done.

Oh banning guns can certainly be done. But you want more than that. You want guns to go away completely. Which wont happen in our lifetime. If you have a plan to get that done Id love to hear it.

That’s not relevant to my point, which is that gun ownership for the purposes of self protection is irrational as it makes you less safe. This is all about why the average person should elect not to own a gun out of common sense.

Again, we'll agree to disagree.

 

[blackangst1]

Virtually every gun in this country was obtained by the original owner in a legal fashion. It's nigh onto impossible for them to be controlled after that. It's been happening for a long time, leading to us having more guns than people in this country.

If we banned the manufacture & sale of new guns tomorrow there would still be plenty to go around.

Thats kind of what I said. Ban guns all you want. But they wont go anywhere.

 

[fskimospy]

That you think "my goal is most certainly to ban the ownership of all guns I’ll take any steps we can on the route to that. " is the best thing.

Well that's fine but this discussion isn't about the legality of gun ownership, it's about the wisdom of it.

Again, I disagree. Instead of educating keeping guns in the home is a dumb idea, how about owning a gun without formal security training is a dumb idea? Thats much better IMHO.

And you know I didnt use the word suffering" in the literal sense. Cmon man.

Accidents are not the driver of the increased odds of death due to gun ownership so it's hard to see why training is the answer. (there are only about 600 accidental gun deaths per year) The main problem is that people use those guns to kill themselves or their loved ones on purpose as a gun in the house can turn a fist fight into a gun fight. You almost always walk away from a fist fight. A gun fight? Not so much. It seems our education time and money would be far better spent on teaching people why owning a gun is a bad idea.

Also, I wasn't using suffering literally, I meant that people who declined to buy a gun who otherwise would have with laxer laws would be empirically better off. They would save money AND live longer on average!

Oh banning guns can certainly be done. But you want more than that. You want guns to go away completely. Which wont happen in our lifetime. If you have a plan to get that done Id love to hear it.

Lots of things won't be accomplished in our lifetime but that doesn't mean they aren't worthy goals worth working towards. I doubt we'll see the colonization of Mars in my lifetime either despite Elon Musk's promises. I still think we should work towards it though.

Again, we'll agree to disagree.

Sorry but I can't do that because my position is overwhelmingly supported by the evidence. If you're the average person buying a gun for personal safety you're making a dumb choice. If you want to reject the empirical evidence that's fine but we can't pretend that both positions are equally valid.

Seriously, if you're interested I can provide you with reams of research on the issue. Owning guns is bad.

 

[Jhhnn]

And like cocaine & horse porn, people would just import it from south America. Because they want it so badly they dont care about the law.

Please. In general, it's much more difficult to obtain guns south of the border than in this country. Smuggled guns go the other way & have for decades.

Beyond that, gun smuggling into this country wouldn't be nearly as lucrative as smuggling cocaine or heroin.

 

[shortylickens]

Please. In general, it's much more difficult to obtain guns south of the border than in this country. Smuggled guns go the other way & have for decades.

Beyond that, gun smuggling into this country wouldn't be nearly as lucrative as smuggling cocaine or heroin.

No offense but thats just your opinion and you have no proof. Only conjecture.

 

[whm1974]

I've been firearms since I was a kid and I have never ever pointed one at another person no matter how mad I gotten.

 

[blackangst1]

Well that's fine but this discussion isn't about the legality of gun ownership, it's about the wisdom of it.



Accidents are not the driver of the increased odds of death due to gun ownership so it's hard to see why training is the answer. (there are only about 600 accidental gun deaths per year) The main problem is that people use those guns to kill themselves or their loved ones on purpose as a gun in the house can turn a fist fight into a gun fight. You almost always walk away from a fist fight. A gun fight? Not so much. It seems our education time and money would be far better spent on teaching people why owning a gun is a bad idea.

Also, I wasn't using suffering literally, I meant that people who declined to buy a gun who otherwise would have with laxer laws would be empirically better off. They would save money AND live longer on average!



Lots of things won't be accomplished in our lifetime but that doesn't mean they aren't worthy goals worth working towards. I doubt we'll see the colonization of Mars in my lifetime either despite Elon Musk's promises. I still think we should work towards it though.



Sorry but I can't do that because my position is overwhelmingly supported by the evidence. If you're the average person buying a gun for personal safety you're making a dumb choice. If you want to reject the empirical evidence that's fine but we can't pretend that both positions are equally valid.

Seriously, if you're interested I can provide you with reams of research on the issue. Owning guns is bad.

One can find evidence to support whatever their position is. You know that. Like the link I provided that shows the majority of gun crimes happen with illegally purchased guns. Same goes for murders (although there hasnt been much relevant data on that specifically since 2004).

Again, banning guns will not put a dent in the crimes you are referring to. Nor will rid the streets of guns. Didnt prohibition teach you anything?

 

[fskimospy]

I've been firearms since I was a kid and I have never ever pointed one at another person no matter how mad I gotten.

Yeah but that doesn’t matter as we are talking about society as a whole. Many people will own guns their entire lives and never harm a soul. A small amount will slaughter their entire families.

One can find evidence to support whatever their position is. You know that. Like the link I provided that shows the majority of gun crimes happen with illegally purchased guns. Same goes for murders (although there hasnt been much relevant data on that specifically since 2004).

Absolutely not, the state of the evidence is not ambiguous so none of that ‘nobody can know’ nonsense. It’s not even close, the research is absolutely overwhelming in my favor.

Here, you provide the best evidence you have that personal gun ownership is useful for self protection and I’ll provide mine and we will see what is best. (Incoming Lott)

Again, banning guns will not put a dent in the crimes you are referring to. Nor will rid the streets of guns. Didnt prohibition teach you anything?

The example set by most of the rest of the world today is probably a better lesson than prohibition, no?

 

[blackangst1]

Absolutely not, the state of the evidence is not ambiguous so none of that ‘nobody can know’ nonsense. It’s not even close, the research is absolutely overwhelming in my favor.

But the no one ever knows is exactly YOUR argument. No one ever knows who will use their own gun in a crime.

Here, you provide the best evidence you have that personal gun ownership is useful for self protection and I’ll provide mine and we will see what is best. (Incoming Lott)

Whats wrong with Lott? It certainly is valid. Remember I ALSO stated the importance of training. As explained in THIS article.

Even if someone wanted to use a gun in self-defense, they probably wouldn't be very successful, says Mike Weisser, firearms instructor and author of the blog "Mike The Gun Guy." He says many people who carry a gun aren't properly trained to use it in this way, and there is no performance validation standard for police officers.

"If we don't even have a minimum standard, not for training, but for performance validation for our law enforcement," he says, "how in God's name is anybody going to say, 'Well, just because you have a gun in your pocket, you know how to use it in self-defense?' You don't."

The example set by most of the rest of the world today is probably a better lesson than prohibition, no?

Right. Prohibition as demonstrated by Switzerland. Or how about Finland. The fourth largest gun owning country. 38% of households have a firearm, compared to the US's 31%. Yet, in 2014 Finland only 14 gun deaths. FOURTEEN. Why do you think that is?

In the US, 48% of legal gun owners report self defense is their p[primary reason for owning one. Not quite half. How about the other half? What is your plan for them?

Finland gun stats:
https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/finland

Oh and Finland a national gun registry, which we dont. I wouldnt be opposed to that. However, as in the US, it doesnt cover guns purchased at gun shows.

The problem as youve stated ("owning a gun makes you more likely to use it in a harmful way". Again, duh.) isnt the problem in America. Legal gun owners arent the problem. Its illegal gun owners. And banning guns wont change that.[/quote]

 

[Jhhnn]

No offense but thats just your opinion and you have no proof. Only conjecture.

Heh. It's what project gun runner is all about-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Gunrunner

https://www.vox.com/2016/1/14/10771628/gun-violence-america-mexico

 

[fskimospy]

But the no one ever knows is exactly YOUR argument. No one ever knows who will use their own gun in a crime.

No, my argument is precisely the opposite. We know owning a gun makes you less safe on average. That’s the state of the science. Do you accept the science?

Whats wrong with Lott? It certainly is valid. Remember I ALSO stated the importance of training. As explained in THIS article.

I’m not sure what you’re looking for there as that article strongly supports my position. Defensive gun use is very rare. What’s not covered there enough is also that what people describe as ‘defensive gun use’ are often crimes in and of themselves.

As for Lott, other researchers have attempted to replicate his results and have failed, meaning his results are probably wrong. In addition it appears likely he’s fabricated some of his evidence.

Lott is a very bad proponent for gun effectiveness the only problem for gun people is he’s about all they’ve got because all the other research points the other way.

Right. Prohibition as demonstrated by Switzerland. Or how about Finland. The fourth largest gun owning country. 38% of households have a firearm, compared to the US's 31%. Yet, in 2014 Finland only 14 gun deaths. FOURTEEN. Why do you think that is?

You said prohibition was an example of why it wouldn’t work. A significant number of developed countries have de facto prohibition and it works. You cannot escape that fact.

In the US, 48% of legal gun owners report self defense is their p[primary reason for owning one. Not quite half. How about the other half? What is your plan for them?

Finland gun stats:
https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/finland

Oh and Finland a national gun registry, which we dont. I wouldnt be opposed to that. However, as in the US, it doesnt cover guns purchased at gun shows.

The problem as youve stated ("owning a gun makes you more likely to use it in a harmful way". Again, duh.) isnt the problem in America. Legal gun owners arent the problem. Its illegal gun owners. And banning guns wont change that.

The correlation between gun ownership and higher likelihood of you and your family being the victims of homicide and suicide exists independently of the legality of the gun purchase. It’s there for everyone.

So no, legal gun owners face these dangers too. All the evidence shows this.

Banning guns would be the best thing but if we can’t do that the least we can do is inform Americans how stupid it is to buy one for protection.

 

[blackangst1]

No, my argument is precisely the opposite. We know owning a gun makes you less safe on average. That’s the state of the science. Do you accept the science?

Nope not at all. Ive acknowledged (here, Ill do it a third time) that owning a gun makes you more likely to hurt someone (again, for the third time, duh). Kinda like flying in an airplane makes more prone to die in a crash. My point was, its as you say is ‘nobody can know’ nonsense. You dont who. Only that is higher likelihood if you own a gun.

I’m not sure what you’re looking for there as that article strongly supports my position. Defensive gun use is very rare. What’s not covered there enough is also that what people describe as ‘defensive gun use’ are often crimes in and of themselves.

Im supporting more education and training, as my quote also suggests. You may say gun violence in Switzerland is low because they banned guns.

You said prohibition was an example of why it wouldn’t work. A significant number of developed countries have de facto prohibition and it works. You cannot escape that fact.

Why do you suppose a country, like Switzerland, has such high gun ownership and low gun crime, and no reported mass shootings since 2001? Education and training. Mandatory service along with a national required training program equals training. Gun owners who want to carry their weapon for "defensive purposes" have to prove they can properly load, unload, and shoot their weapon and must pass a test to get a license.

The correlation between gun ownership and higher likelihood of you and your family being the victims of homicide and suicide exists independently of the legality of the gun purchase. It’s there for everyone.

Again, duh.

Banning guns would be the best thing but if we can’t do that the least we can do is inform Americans how stupid it is to buy one for protection.

And what exactly would you do with the almost 400 million guns in the US? What would you do for the majority of people who claim they own a gun for other than personal defense? Is it all or nothing?

 

[Paladin3]

Sure, but not owning a pistol makes your life expectancy longer than owning one. Why not save money AND live longer? It’s a win all around.

As would skipping that daily coffee milkshake at Starbucks. Probably far more, in fact.

 

[whm1974]

Nope not at all. Ive acknowledged (here, Ill do it a third time) that owning a gun makes you more likely to hurt someone (again, for the third time, duh). Kinda like flying in an airplane makes more prone to die in a crash. My point was, its as you say is ‘nobody can know’ nonsense. You dont who. Only that is higher likelihood if you own a gun.




Im supporting more education and training, as my quote also suggests. You may say gun violence in Switzerland is low because they banned guns.



Why do you suppose a country, like Switzerland, has such high gun ownership and low gun crime, and no reported mass shootings since 2001? Education and training. Mandatory service along with a national required training program equals training. Gun owners who want to carry their weapon for "defensive purposes" have to prove they can properly load, unload, and shoot their weapon and must pass a test to get a license.



Again, duh.



And what exactly would you do with the almost 400 million guns in the US? What would you do for the majority of people who claim they own a gun for other than personal defense? Is it all or nothing?

I like to see this guy live in the of middle rural areas of Alaska with owning suitable firearms. Or for that matter in anywhere where lots of bears live.

 

[Paladin3]

No, not really. Even after controlling for crime rate and such owning a gun still makes you more likely to die. It’s just a bad idea if you are owning it for self protection.

I know intuitively it seems like owning a gun should make you safer but...well...it doesn’t.

Thank you for your concern. Personal safety is not my primary reason for own guns. I understand the risk of owning one. As I understand the risk of owning and riding a motorcycle. And lots of other things I do that could hurt me. Heck, on occasion I juggle knives. Just like I'm sure you and everyone else so concerned about guns have a few hobbies or habits that aren't 100% safe.

 

[blackangst1]

Thank you for your concern. Personal safety is not my primary reason for own guns. I understand the risk of owning one. As I understand the risk of owning and riding a motorcycle. And lots of other things I do that could hurt me. Heck, on occasion I juggle knives. Just like I'm sure you and everyone else so concerned about guns have a few hobbies or habits that aren't 100% safe.

Obviously, those must be banned.

 

[fskimospy]

Nope not at all. Ive acknowledged (here, Ill do it a third time) that owning a gun makes you more likely to hurt someone (again, for the third time, duh). Kinda like flying in an airplane makes more prone to die in a crash. My point was, its as you say is ‘nobody can know’ nonsense. You dont who. Only that is higher likelihood if you own a gun.

Well since we are talking about nationwide policy the exact who isn’t particularly relevant, no?

Im supporting more education and training, as my quote also suggests. You may say gun violence in Switzerland is low because they banned guns.

Why do you suppose a country, like Switzerland, has such high gun ownership and low gun crime, and no reported mass shootings since 2001? Education and training. Mandatory service along with a national required training program equals training. Gun owners who want to carry their weapon for "defensive purposes" have to prove they can properly load, unload, and shoot their weapon and must pass a test to get a license.

Again, accidental shootings are a tiny fraction of gun violence in the US. Almost all of it is intentional so more training is unlikely to help much.

Again, duh.

And what exactly would you do with the almost 400 million guns in the US? What would you do for the majority of people who claim they own a gun for other than personal defense? Is it all or nothing?

Nothing is all or nothing. Like I said I would settle for just better education on why the average person shouldn’t own a gun.

 

[Paladin3]

But the no one ever knows is exactly YOUR argument. No one ever knows who will use their own gun in a crime.



Whats wrong with Lott? It certainly is valid. Remember I ALSO stated the importance of training. As explained in THIS article.



Right. Prohibition as demonstrated by Switzerland. Or how about Finland. The fourth largest gun owning country. 38% of households have a firearm, compared to the US's 31%. Yet, in 2014 Finland only 14 gun deaths. FOURTEEN. Why do you think that is?

In the US, 48% of legal gun owners report self defense is their p[primary reason for owning one. Not quite half. How about the other half? What is your plan for them?

Finland gun stats:
https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/finland

Oh and Finland a national gun registry, which we dont. I wouldnt be opposed to that. However, as in the US, it doesnt cover guns purchased at gun shows.

The problem as youve stated ("owning a gun makes you more likely to use it in a harmful way". Again, duh.) isnt the problem in America. Legal gun owners arent the problem. Its illegal gun owners. And banning guns wont change that.

[/QUOTE]

Countries like Finland, Switzerland have a ton of rifles. The US has a very high number of handguns per capita. Plus some Americans are "rights drunk" and think they have the right to do whatever they want and to never be told what to do because this is a "free country," and a lot of those nuts just love their handguns.

So I would say it's a combination of cultural attitudes regarding "self-defense" and the ready availability of handguns, which are responsible for most gun deaths, just not the mass shootings that grab the headlines.

 

[fskimospy]

Thank you for your concern. Personal safety is not my primary reason for own guns. I understand the risk of owning one. As I understand the risk of owning and riding a motorcycle. And lots of other things I do that could hurt me. Heck, on occasion I juggle knives. Just like I'm sure you and everyone else so concerned about guns have a few hobbies or habits that aren't 100% safe.

I don’t care if your habits and hobbies are safe or not, what gave you the silly idea that I did?

My argument is 100% utilitarian. If something isn’t good for personal safety people shouldn’t buy it for personal safety. End of story.

 

[fskimospy]

I like to see this guy live in the of middle rural areas of Alaska with owning suitable firearms. Or for that matter in anywhere where lots of bears live.

Do you think the average American lives in rural Alaska or around lots of bears? If so, what? If not, your argument doesn’t apply.

 

[Paladin3]

I don’t care if your habits and hobbies are safe or not, what gave you the silly idea that I did?

My argument is 100% utilitarian. If something isn’t good for personal safety people shouldn’t buy it for personal safety. End of story.

Then what is your point? That owning a gun makes your likelihood of being hurt by a gun go up a tiny fraction of a percentage point vs not owning one? I and several other gun owners in this thread have already said we agree with that fact and accept the additional risk. And I've repeatedly said that personal safety isn't the primary reason I own a gun. It's not even the secondary reason.

So, it looks like you can stop posting now. Or go champion the banning of Starbucks coffee milkshakes if you want to save some real lives. End of story.

 

[fskimospy]

Then what is your point? That owning a gun makes your likelihood of being hurt by a gun go up a tiny fraction of a percentage point vs not owning one? I and several other gun owners in this thread have already said we agree with that fact and accept the additional risk. And I've repeatedly said that personal safety isn't the primary reason I own a gun. It's not even the secondary reason.

So, it looks like you can stop posting now. End of story.

It is kind of amazing to me that after all this you don’t understand the point I’ve stated extremely clearly probably half a dozen times. If personal safety isn’t why you own a gun then why are you bothering to chime in on this argument as that’s entirely what I’ve been talking about? Lol.

You guys are so hard wired into reflexive defenses of your gun ownership that you never bother to actually read what other people are saying.