Finally mustered the courage to reject religion.

[busydude]

Also, what is happening in reality? It is not hip to distance myself from religion. It was a very hard thing to do considering my back ground.

If you think I am being materialistic.. What about you? Just give up all the material wealth you have...

 

[mattpegher]

"Whatever the reason, make sure you understand that at this point in this lifetime, you may have been expunged from the path of inquiry (Dharma) due to the karmaphala and vAsanAs of previous janmAs"

I do not understand. Based on my life.. I think I may be qualified to attain moksha.

Baasha, you think I have veered off the path of attaining moksha due to the fact that I consider myself not a follower of hinduism. Your words are very similar to those Mormons who pester me regularly.

I don't give a crap regarding what happens after I die. What matters to me is the way I lead my life.. this life.

Busydude, you are right about the mormons, as well as other religions. If you dont agree that my religion is the correct one and all others are false, and follow my rules (which weren't really made up by people, but handed down by the one true god) then no matter how you live you will suffer in the afterlife.

That has always been the major argument that I have had with priests and other clergy. If an afterlife exists and if it is a place where your actions reward or punish you, what about the holy person that believed in the wrong god. What of the caveman born millions of years before christ, buddha, mohammed, etc. What of those who sacrifice and suffer for others but do so without belief in or even knowledge of god.

Some of the christian faiths actually believe that it matters not what you do but that you believe in Jesus. Sorry but I do find it interesting to see these arguments in a non-christian context. Many of us in the western world have such a poor understanding of hinduism, and the many variations.

 

[Baasha]

"Whatever the reason, make sure you understand that at this point in this lifetime, you may have been expunged from the path of inquiry (Dharma) due to the karmaphala and vAsanAs of previous janmAs"

I do not understand. Based on my life.. I think I may be qualified to attain moksha.

Baasha, you think I have veered off the path of attaining moksha due to the fact that I consider myself not a follower of hinduism. Your words are very similar to those Mormons who pester me regularly.

I don't give a crap regarding what happens after I die. What matters to me is the way I lead my life.. this life.

You have completely misunderstood my statement. What I said was that your current situation (mental state that makes you want to reject religiosity) is the result of vAsanAs (latent tendencies) and fruits of your action (karmaphala) from this and previous lives. Whether that is "good" or "bad" is for you to find out. I'm not making any judgments. Yoga VasiSTA, a seminal text in Vedanta, contains an entire bhUmiKA called ViCAranA (self-inquiry) and is about contemplation on knowledge of the phenomenal world as well as the spiritual. Religious experience, the wise ones say, is the culmination of our experiences past and present.

All I'm saying is that there is a reason why you are rejecting the cultural aspect of VarnASramA Dharma. Find that reason out. If you're simply going to state you dislike it and not do any research into it, you will be as blind as the so-called "blindly" religious folks you and other "rationalists" have contempt for.

I'm not talking about mOkSA etc. You are absolutely free to make any choice "you" want. Yet, turn the gaze inward to find out the reason(s) why you have arrived at such a conclusion or else the whole purpose of rejection itself will become futile.

 

[Baasha]

If you think I am being materialistic.. What about you? Just give up all the material wealth you have...

You misunderstood me again. As I stated in my original reply to you, I had put in parentheses "in its literal sense" meaning materialistic in terms of material world/phenomenal world. That is what CarvakA is about. If you, along with those who refuse to inquire into the spiritual dimension of life, believe that the entire cosmos and everything in it is limited to the (experiences arising from the) five senses and the material world, then look into CarvakA which is atheistic in nature and is considered a nAstikA darSanA (heterodox school of thought) in Hinduism itself.

 

[Baasha]

Many of us in the western world have such a poor understanding of Hinduism, and the many variations.

Absolutely, and that is why it is shocking to see so many westerners as self-proclaimed "scholars" of Hinduism when they know next to nothing about it, its history, and its practice.

If one wants to know about Hinduism, one must learn from practicing Hindus.

 

[busydude]

All I'm saying is that there is a reason why you are rejecting the cultural aspect of VarnASramA Dharma. Find that reason out. If you're simply going to state you dislike it and not do any research into it, you will be as blind as the so-called "blindly" religious folks you and other "rationalists" have contempt for. I'm not talking about mOkSA etc. You are absolutely free to make any choice "you" want. Yet, turn the gaze inward to find out the reason(s) why you have arrived at such a conclusion or else the whole purpose of rejection itself will become futile.

That is what I just explained in this thread. The way it[organized religion] is being implemented... caste system is the main reason in Hinduism[Sanatana Dharma], but there are many numerous other reasons too.

This was not a spur of the moment decision, I made this choice after much deliberation. You are asking me to go back to square one, I am telling you time and again.. I just do not want to be associated with any religion.. period.

Religious experience, the wise ones say, is the culmination of our experiences past and present.

So who is going to decide that I am on the right path? You say it is me who has to decide.. I do not like the belief that "my fate" is decided at the time of my birth.. I am the master of my own destiny. It is not god or someone else's business to dictate the way I lead my life. It is not my karmaphala.. did god predict that I would be born not by natural way, but by c-section procedure.. I or anyone else can choose at which time a baby is born.. they might as well choose the best possible muhurat for that too. What about test-tube babies? How can planets and stars determine my fate? What about vaastu shastra and Jaatakam. How can it effect the way I lead my life?

Were Dravidians forced to followed the faith and beliefs of Aryans? A forced conversion seems plausible in that sense. It has not yet been established what religion they believed in.

Why are they two major sects in Brahmin community, one who believes in Vishnu and the other in Shiva?

 

[Baasha]

I just do not want to be associated with any religion.. period.

And that is totally fine as long as you understand that that decision has arisen due to your present understanding of the principles you claim are troubling you, not the principles themselves. Get it?

Thus, my suggestion to you was to inquire further.

So who is going to decide that I am on the right path? You say it is me who has to decide.. I do not like the belief that "my fate" is decided at the time of my birth.. I am the master of my own destiny. It is not god or someone else's business to dictate the way I lead my life. It is not my karmaphala.. did god predict that I would be born not by natural way, but by c-section procedure.. I or anyone else can choose at which time a baby is born.. they might as well choose the best possible muhurat for that too. What about test-tube babies? How can planets and stars determine my fate? What about vaastu shastra and Jaatakam. How can it effect the way I lead my life?

The part in bold is the cause of (self) delusion, according to the SastrAs. Of course, you can reject all of that and the myriad sages of India who have recounted their experiences through the ages who state otherwise (that "I" -the ego- is NOT the doer).

You seem to have a very cursory understanding of Hinduism. As explained before, Dharma (Hinduism) is not the same as "religion" as is commonly defined. Read that article by Rajiv Malhotra. Many people are confused especially about Hinduism because there is no one "founder" or one "book" or one set of rules etc. It is an ocean of knowledge and describes the nature of reality at so many different levels and that is why it is an extremely complex "religion" for want of a better word. If you do not want to study it, that is fine. However, don't state things as if the principles within the faith are shaky as you have not spent the time and energy in researching them. That is my point. And, to make it clear, I'm no guru but I try to learn a little bit everyday despite my hectic schedule. That is what "religion" is about, again, as I stated earlier. If you're not willing to inquire into the nature of reality, then what is there to reject anyway?

And vAstU SastrA is there to describe the subtle relationships between the phenomenal and spiritual worlds. If it was complete bunk, why is Feng Shui there? Other cultures have touched upon this as well. The same goes for jyOtiSA (astrology). It is not that astrology determines every event/action in your life but it describes the self-similarity present in manifestation. The yogIs and riSIs of India, through intense sAdhanA, have been able to describe these subtle relationships. By the way, do you know that NASA consults astrologers before every shuttle launch? If it was such bunk, why do they do it? (I know because my relative is an astrophysicist there).

This is what I'm saying; do the research on your own and don't take others' word for it. That is the crux of Hinduism. The Scriptures, gurus, and mahAnts are all there as signposts and guides on the path of self-inquiry.

Were Dravidians forced to followed the faith and beliefs of Aryans? A forced conversion seems plausible in that sense. It has not yet been established what religion they believed in.

Is this even a serious question? You believe in the "Aryan Invasion Theory"? How on earth were you a "Hindu"? There is no "race" or group of people called "Aryans" except Hindus. Dravidians exist only to counter this imaginary "Aryan". It is a ploy to divide the peoples of India and you should know better than to give it credence. Even the so-called "Dravidian" languages have plenty of Sanskritization (influence of Sanksrit). Those who claim IVC was Dravidian, the IVC peoples worshiped Shiva and other Hindu deities (many Lingams were found in recent excavations). The continuity of Hinduism is clearly there for the past 5000+ years. Anti-Hindus and anti-Indians are at the forefront of trying to dissociate IVC from Hinduism trying to claim there was no continuity.

Please read Breaking India by Aravindan Neelakandan and Rajiv Malhotra (www.BreakingIndia.com). It is a book every Indian should read to understand the basis of this farce called the Aryan "race"/"group".

Why are they two major sects in Brahmin community, one who believes in Vishnu and the other in Shiva?

:facepalm:

That's like asking why are there two majors in college and some students take Chemistry while other students take Physics? Inquiry into the nature of reality is NOT dependent on the object of worship. Remember, the act of worshiping is sAdhanA (spiritual practice). The object of worship acts as a conduit. Some focus on the preservation aspect of creation (ViSnU) while others focus on the dissolution aspect of it (SivA). So what is the issue if there are two or more sects or seemingly divergent philosophies within Hinduism? That is the beauty of Hinduism; it has a path for people of ALL temperaments, even atheists.

It is amply evident that you have really not understood even some of the basics of Hinduism. Please do some more reading on Sanatana Dharma. If you don't want to, then it's your loss.

Good luck!

 

[shadow9d9]

Just like the two atheists at Columbine that committed mass murder against their fellow innocent school mates, Christian and atheist alike.

Or how about those atheists in East Texas that burned down several Christian churces not too long ago?

Tell me atheists affect no one with a straight face.

You cant.

Atheists affect no one with pushing for policy change.. why? how do you push for change based on a lack of belief?

And it is always funny when people like you try to link one atheist to another. A lack of a belief in something doesn't link people. NOT believing in unicorns doesn't link anyone together.

It is equivalent to me saying that non unicorn believers have caused every war in the history of man.


Religious politicians in every country push their personal religious beliefs down everyone's throats on a daily basis.

 

[mattpegher]

Atheists affect no one with pushing for policy change.. why? how do you push for change based on a lack of belief?

And it is always funny when people like you try to link one atheist to another. A lack of a belief in something doesn't link people. NOT believing in unicorns doesn't link anyone together.

It is equivalent to me saying that non unicorn believers have caused every war in the history of man.


Religious politicians in every country push their personal religious beliefs down everyone's throats on a daily basis.

Yes, politician push their personal beliefs on everyone. Whether they justify those beliefs with religion or anti-religious sentiment, the basis for their beliefs lie more in their own psyche. Sure, there will be weak minded people that will let others tell them some thing or other is wrong, but the real demons lie not in the idea of some metaphysical construct, but deeper within human interaction.
Remove the influence of religion, and you will remove some of the fervor and power of the conflict but not the conflict itself. Most humans instinctually feel uneasy when introduced to persons that are different. Smells, sights, language, customs and mannerisms that are foriegn stimulate an animal response of competition. It is advantagious for one group of a species to have the mental preparedness to kill others of the same species by grouping up. Just watch the meerkats, or any chimpanzee program and you will see the effect. Although we can intellectually suppress these urges they are not eliminated and are pushed subconsciously.
The more a subculture seperates itself from the larger population the more they will stimulate this response.
Other subconscious motivators will be come appearent when sexual identity is factored in. A popular sign of disrespect especially on ATOT is to question ones sexuality. The drive to establish ones own sexuality begins with teens and continues strongly into the 3rd decade of life. There are strong drives to seperate males specifically and stimulate mating. This leads to a suppression of memories of sexual confusion that all teens experience through a mechanism of anger. This combination will for the majority stimulate a strong drive to compete for females. The side effect of this is a strong homophobia that manifests in immature responses. For most western religions that segregated these teens in education in an attempt to extend adolescence and prevent early mating, the consequence was an increase in homosexual activity. As expected, they demonized the practices even going to the extent of writing passages in there holy books against the activity. Thus is created a legacy of inappropriate response. Normally, when adult male enter into the 4th decade of life, most have established mating and the drive to compete for mates lesses thus the homophobic tendencies will decrease. Misdirected religious intolerance however tends to extend these emotions further.
Religion, genericly put is to metaphysics as engineering is to physics. When the chair I sit on breaks, I contemplate was the chair old, was the material faulty, am I just too damn fat. But I dont say from now on I will only sit on the floor. Hopefully I try to build a better chair.

 

[mattpegher]

Remember there are atheistic religions. All of these still however believe in some life force that exist divisible from the living creature and transferrable to either a noncorporial state or through reincarnation to a new corporial state. Some of the Hindu religions are this way.

Busydude and Basha, no offense but many of the terms you use to discuss amoungst yourselves, are as yet not defined. I do not wish to jump in and start a discussion about a faith that I know very very little about, but if you could take a moment to try to discuss in a metaphysical framework, I would be interested to listen.
If either of you are of the belief in a form of hinduism that lacks a creator god, I would find that fascinating, because all of the western religions are basically judeochristian (even islam). Thus all believe in a creator god that exist seperate from it's creation.

 

[busydude]

Is this even a serious question? You believe in the "Aryan Invasion Theory"?

I was just being facetious. The point is.. I just don't care. I haven't read the book.. I'll give it a read once the price drops or my library picks it up. Aryan migration theory may be a fabrication by Europeans, it is mainly based on anecdotes. But genetically there are two mainly different ancestral groups namely; Ancestral North Indian and Ancestral South Indian. It is quite apparent just by observing the physical features.. and report suggest that there has been an integration of sorts(Due to the fact that it happened ~40,000 years ago).

Religious practices in IVC have not been conclusive as of yet... few believe they practiced an early form of Hinduism.

So what is the issue if there are two or more sects or seemingly divergent philosophies within Hinduism? That is the beauty of Hinduism; it has a path for people of ALL temperaments, even atheists.

Yes, but what if I tell you that people who follow different paths discriminate each other.. even from the same caste(This is true especially in Brahmin communities like Iyer and Iyangar). I agree with you mostly on the concept of Sanata Dhrama, but I am getting fed up of its implementation.

You have no clue how I lead my life, and also you have no Idea the level of discrimination people face in India.. just because they were born into a lower caste. As I have previously said, learning about the religion can be a very good academic exercise(or which ever way you feel is right), but being a part of it is not possible for me.

The epics of Ramayan and Mahabharat are just metaphors.. there are a lot of people who believe them to be actual historical accounts.

 

[Baasha]

I was just being facetious. The point is.. I just don't care. I haven't read the book.. I'll give it a read once the price drops or my library picks it up. Aryan migration theory may be a fabrication by Europeans, it is mainly based on anecdotes. But genetically there are two mainly different ancestral groups namely; Ancestral North Indian and Ancestral South Indian. It is quite apparent just by observing the physical features.. and report suggest that there has been an integration of sorts(Due to the fact that it happened ~40,000 years ago).

Is there doubt in your mind that AIT was not a fabrication? I know it's what you may have learnt in India, but that doesn't make it sacrosanct, especially since all the textbooks are written by the vehemently anti-Hindu vermin who eulogize terrorist scum like the Mughals and give Shivaji Maharaj a glance. Shit-for-brains like Romila Thapar, a well-known Marxist, anti-Hindu "scholar" and "historian", is dogmatic about AIT and along with her quacks from shitholes like JNU parrot the same nonsense every generation ruining the minds of young Hindus.

AIT has been thoroughly debunked. Of that, there isn't a semblance of a doubt. As I've stated before, if at all anyone call be called "Aryan", it is practicing Hindus.

The Rig Veda is the oldest extant text of mankind. The Saraswati River is central to the Rig Veda and that is in present-day Pakistan. It is ample proof that this philosophy was borne from the Indus-Saraswati civilization and thus forms the core of Hinduism which continue to this day. In the Rig Veda, YayAtI and his five sons are said to be Arya or of noble lineage (character and action).

You just have to read about the AIT and other shoddy scholarship by westerners and their brainless coolies in India like Romila Thapar et. al. You really should get Breaking India and read it.

Read this by Michael Danino for more info rebutting the AIT.

Religious practices in IVC have not been conclusive as of yet... few believe they practiced an early form of Hinduism.

Conclusive? According to whom? The inhabitants of the Indus-Saraswati Civilization worshiped many of the same deities that are still being worshiped in India, by Hindus. How is that not conclusive?

Yes, but what if I tell you that people who follow different paths discriminate each other.. even from the same caste(This is true especially in Brahmin communities like Iyer and Iyangar). I agree with you mostly on the concept of Sanata Dhrama, but I am getting fed up of its implementation.

You have no clue how I lead my life, and also you have no Idea the level of discrimination people face in India.. just because they were born into a lower caste. As I have previously said, learning about the religion can be a very good academic exercise(or which ever way you feel is right), but being a part of it is not possible for me.

And philosophical differentiation is good; it makes for better debate. That is what is great about Hinduism. Do you see the Iyers and Iyengars vying to cut off each others' heads? Are they disbarred from worshiping together? Are they forbidden from praying to other deities? Compare these differences to the differences between the sects of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity and you'll see how ridiculous what you've stated sounds. No Iyengar is forbidden from praying to SivA or no Iyer is disbarred from entering a Vaishnavite temple. There are theological and philosophical differences among all the sects in Hindu Dharma. That is the beauty of the age-old tradition of pUrva-pakSA; the tradition of (civil) debate between different ideologies. That is how Adi SankarA defeated the Buddhists philosophically. Not through violence and coercion like the Abrahamic filth engage in.

And, your disdain for the (poor) implementation of VarnASramA is analogous to the following:

Are you going to give up playing cricket because somebody else uses the cricket bat to beat another person up? The cricket bat has its purpose. It is not meant to be abused, just as VarnASramA is not meant to be abused.

It is obtuse to say you will give up on Atma-viCArA because some people abuse certain aspects of it. Think about it. Of course, you are free to do what you want. However, your actions must arise from proper thought. Proper thought arises from proper contemplation. It is clear there hasn't been much contemplation of this matter on your part. That's all I'm saying.

The epics of Ramayan and Mahabharat are just metaphors.. there are a lot of people who believe them to be actual historical accounts.

How are you so sure they are just metaphors and not historical? Furthermore, history in and of itself was/is antithetical to Hindu cosmogony. Dharmic traditions are cyclical, not linear. History by definition, is linear. Thus, you don't find every scripture containing "dates" and other ephemeral nonsense the Rishis of yore attaching to each hymn they divined. They experienced the permanent and the impermanent as part of the former, and thus realized the futility in giving such things too much importance. That is also why, coincidentally, that many of the great discoveries and inventions by Indians from ancient to recent times don't stress attaching one's name to it; a sign of ego and ownership; something that is ephemeral and ultimately unimportant. It is a travesty that so many people look upon those who were so selfless in their pursuit of experiencing the nature of reality as mistaken or worse.

Even after all of that and the unimportance of historicity, recent excavations by ASI have found DwArakA in the Gulf of Kambhat in Gujarat and they've seen the Ram-Setu bridge that dates to ~1.7M years ago; approximately the time of the Treta Yuga, when Sri RAmA is supposed to have ruled! Are these 100% "true"? I don't know. Keep an open mind and read about it more instead of blithely stating something to make a point.

And, if one were to take historicity as central to a religion, it will fail from the get-go. That is why Abrahamic "religions" are garbage. They are totally history-centric, again, as Rajiv Malhotra describes eloquently. The Mahabharata and the Ramayana are ItihAs or "events that occurred". These events can repeat themselves in successive Yugas (epochs) but of those things, we can only speculate.

Also, if they are just metaphors, why don't you stress the same fact about Abrahamic religions? Don't tell me you believe that Jesus rose from the dead like a zombie? Or what about Muhammad? Frothing at the mouth in a cave in the desert flew away on a horse to "heaven"? And Moses? Talking to a burning bush? You think those are metaphorical too right? Go and proclaim that publicly in India and see what happens. That is again, the beauty of Hinduism. You can say what you have publicly and certain people, who are so arrogant and mistake kindness for weakness, constantly stomp on the sensibilities of Hindus like that piece of shit MF Hussain. If that bastard had drawn that Muhammad, even clothed, let alone naked, he would have been killed. It is only because he insulted Hindus and Hinduism time and again he got away with it and not only that, to add insult to injury, many secularists in India gave him a "prize" and consider him a "great" artist.

India is secular only because of its Hindu majority. Hinduism by nature is secular (so many differences within the 'religion'). India should not be secular at the expense of the majority; that is what's happening now. Don't be mistaken and think the Christian and Muslim fanatics would let India be so if they were in power. They, along with their Communist bedfellows are vying to destroy Hindus and Hinduism. Alas, their effort will be in vain for as India's motto states, Satyameva Jayate!

 

[busydude]

Also, if they are just metaphors, why don't you stress the same fact about Abrahamic religions? Don't tell me you believe that Jesus rose from the dead like a zombie? Or what about Muhammad? Frothing at the mouth in a cave in the desert flew away on a horse to "heaven"? And Moses? Talking to a burning bush? You think those are metaphorical too right?

Yup. They are metaphors too.. IMO.

Keep an open mind and read about it more instead of blithely stating something to make a point.

You are doing the same to state your point. I am not anti-Hindu as you think.. I am anti-organized religion. I think the world would be a much better place without religion.

You can say what you have publicly and certain people, who are so arrogant and mistake kindness for weakness, constantly stomp on the sensibilities of Hindus like that piece of shit MF Hussain. If that bastard had drawn that Muhammad, even clothed, let alone naked, he would have been killed. It is only because he insulted Hindus and Hinduism time and again he got away with it and not only that, to add insult to injury, many secularists in India gave him a "prize" and consider him a "great" artist.

Yeah that is why he left India and finally died as a citizen of UAE. If you think Indians are open minded.. they you have a lot to learn. Ever heard of honor killings? Those were not done by fanatics.. they were just normal people who commited those heinous acts. Are you an art collector to judge his paintings? There are a lot of nude statues and idols on the walls and gopurams of Hindu temples. Why are they being so hypocritical.. when people admire the artistic nature of a Temple.. what is wrong in admiring his paintings? Why can't you think with an open mind?

Do you see the Iyers and Iyengars vying to cut off each others' heads?

It happened.. and there is certainly discrimination going on.

If we follow the caste system like in the past.. most of the population will be inbred.. product of incestuous relationships. Population of >1.2 billion and most of them related to each other..

 

[Red Squirrel]

If your belief system (was going to say religion but I want to use a broader word) is a burden you are following the wrong belief system.

Now here's what makes me laugh about atheists, maybe not all of them, but lot are very die hard and will try to shove their (ironicly) belief system down everyone's throat. Oh sure some belief systems are like that too... but see what I'm saying, atheist is nothing more than another belief system. People switch to atheist thinking they are getting away from it all, but no, it's just another system.

So you just replaced one burden with another.

Now try to think of a logical way that the universe was formed. Everything has a beginning, if not, that's kinda breaking a law of physics. You can't create or destroy energy, such as individual atoms that make up matter, that's breaking a law of physics too. So how, in a world with zero supernatural force, could the universe have been created? To start this world, a force beyond it had to initiate it.

It is impossible for a computer program to have "always existed". Some force that is beyond the system in which this program exists, had to create it. We all live inside a computer program, somebody had to design and build it and us. Think about it. This program we live in is actually the beta version of what our programmer has prepared for us, we just need to set our heart bit to 1 to allow our father to grant us full access to the new system. It has better redundancy, it never shuts down. It is eternal. It is a gift to us for believing. All others simply get discarded into the depths of the last SVN revision ever, eventually forgotten. Alone. Darkness. Deprecation, Death.... Hell.

But more importantly, why is the rum gone?

 

[mattpegher]

Basha and Busydude. I know you two are having a discussion of Hinduism, Hindu culture and the politics of India, but if you are continuing to discuss the religion you have lost the rest of us.
Busydude, you never got back to us about what you do believe.

 

[busydude]

^^ yeah I got caught up with my studies. Belief in what? In god..in religion? I said in my op that I don't think Hinduism is bad( when compared to abrahamic religions) that said.. In general human kind would be better off without it.

Given enough time.. I think we humans can crack a lot of mysteries.

I am not sure about your question.. Can you be more specific?

 

[JulesMaximus]

I've been rejecting religion since I was in my early teens.

 

[MagickMan]

What made you decide to give it up? Do you still believe in a god of any kind, or are you completely rejecting creationism?

FYI, you can believe in a god while still rejecting creationism.

 

[mattpegher]

^^ yeah I got caught up with my studies. Belief in what? In god..in religion? I said in my op that I don't think Hinduism is bad( when compared to abrahamic religions) that said.. In general human kind would be better off without it.

Given enough time.. I think we humans can crack a lot of mysteries.

I am not sure about your question.. Can you be more specific?

From a metaphysical position,
First- was your sect of hinduism, theistic or atheistic. Some hindu sect believe in the soul and reincarnation but do not believe in a creator god, that is seperate from its creation.

Second - You have recognized the problem with organized religion as a human invention and its missuse as a force for personal gain at the expense of others. However are you denouncing religion or have you metaphysically decided against 1) a god, 2) any afterlife . (As stated above some hindu sects have shown that the two are not the same).

Third - I know you have been taught these things in a language that is foriegn to western observers. If you have to explain in these terms please define them.

Fourth - many on this forum have, reached the position that they hold either through anger at religion or a refusal to realize that science and phylosophy, especially metaphysics can be used to support their belief in atheism, I urge you to use you own mind to determine what you believe and why you believe so. Ridiculing the opposite position has never been an adequate agrument, there for simply saying that one belief or the other is silly or fanciful is a poor argument.

Lastly- Please state have you adopted a position of Atheism. Have you adopted a position that there is no soul (?chakra?), no reincarnation, no heaven/hell.

I am interest to hear what your thoughts are.

 

[sandorski]

If your belief system (was going to say religion but I want to use a broader word) is a burden you are following the wrong belief system.

Now here's what makes me laugh about atheists, maybe not all of them, but lot are very die hard and will try to shove their (ironicly) belief system down everyone's throat. Oh sure some belief systems are like that too... but see what I'm saying, atheist is nothing more than another belief system. People switch to atheist thinking they are getting away from it all, but no, it's just another system.

So you just replaced one burden with another.

Now try to think of a logical way that the universe was formed. Everything has a beginning, if not, that's kinda breaking a law of physics. You can't create or destroy energy, such as individual atoms that make up matter, that's breaking a law of physics too. So how, in a world with zero supernatural force, could the universe have been created? To start this world, a force beyond it had to initiate it.

It is impossible for a computer program to have "always existed". Some force that is beyond the system in which this program exists, had to create it. We all live inside a computer program, somebody had to design and build it and us. Think about it. This program we live in is actually the beta version of what our programmer has prepared for us, we just need to set our heart bit to 1 to allow our father to grant us full access to the new system. It has better redundancy, it never shuts down. It is eternal. It is a gift to us for believing. All others simply get discarded into the depths of the last SVN revision ever, eventually forgotten. Alone. Darkness. Deprecation, Death.... Hell.

But more importantly, why is the rum gone?

No.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

I mustered the courage to reject religion at the age of 6... and it's not because I was particularly courageous.

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

If your belief system (was going to say religion but I want to use a broader word) is a burden you are following the wrong belief system.

Now here's what makes me laugh about atheists, maybe not all of them, but lot are very die hard and will try to shove their (ironicly) belief system down everyone's throat. Oh sure some belief systems are like that too... but see what I'm saying, atheist is nothing more than another belief system. People switch to atheist thinking they are getting away from it all, but no, it's just another system.

So you just replaced one burden with another.

Now try to think of a logical way that the universe was formed. Everything has a beginning, if not, that's kinda breaking a law of physics. You can't create or destroy energy, such as individual atoms that make up matter, that's breaking a law of physics too. So how, in a world with zero supernatural force, could the universe have been created? To start this world, a force beyond it had to initiate it.

It is impossible for a computer program to have "always existed". Some force that is beyond the system in which this program exists, had to create it. We all live inside a computer program, somebody had to design and build it and us. Think about it. This program we live in is actually the beta version of what our programmer has prepared for us, we just need to set our heart bit to 1 to allow our father to grant us full access to the new system. It has better redundancy, it never shuts down. It is eternal. It is a gift to us for believing. All others simply get discarded into the depths of the last SVN revision ever, eventually forgotten. Alone. Darkness. Deprecation, Death.... Hell.

But more importantly, why is the rum gone?

Then who created god?

I ask this question over and over but it never gets answered. It totally destroys the religious nuts arguments so they just ignore my question.

 

[busydude]

First- was your sect of hinduism, theistic or atheistic. Some hindu sect believe in the soul and reincarnation but do not believe in a creator god, that is seperate from its creation.

Theistic.

However are you denouncing religion or have you metaphysically decided against 1) a god, 2) any afterlife .

Yes, yes and yes. I do not want to be a part of any religion at all. When people like him and him make them believe that they are avatars/ incarnations of gods.. how can I possibly believe in god.

Fourth - many on this forum have, reached the position that they hold either through anger at religion or a refusal to realize that science and phylosophy, especially metaphysics can be used to support their belief in atheism, I urge you to use you own mind to determine what you believe and why you believe so. Ridiculing the opposite position has never been an adequate agrument, there for simply saying that one belief or the other is silly or fanciful is a poor argument.

When Bashaa was contesting my argument that the epics of Mahabharata and Ramayana are just metaphors.. my point was regarding the characters in those epics. Like Ravana who is the demon god of Lanka(Present SriLanka) was depicted to have 10 heads.. Does that mean he really has 10 heads in literal sense?

Or the reason behind solar eclipse:

In Hindu mythology there is a wonderful story that describes how the gods and the demons once formed an alliance to produce a nectar that could give them immortality. This is the story of the churning of the milk-ocean and the descent of Lord Visnu as the Kurma avatara, the divine tortoise. When the nectar that was churned from this ocean was being served to the gods, a demon, disguised as a god, sat between the Sun and the Moon in an attempt to procure the nectar. When he was detected by the Sun and the Moon, Lord Visnu immediately severed his head from his body. Unfortunately, it was not fast enough, for the demon had already tasted a small quantity of the nectar and had become immortal. Ever since, this demon is said to wreak vengeance on the Sun and Moon whenever they come near. The head of this great demon is known as Rahu and his tail is known as Ketu.
In Hindu astrology Rahu and Ketu are known as two invisible planets. They are enemies of the Sun and the Moon, who at certain times of the year (during conjunction or opposition) swallow the Sun or the Moon causing either a solar or a lunar eclipse. In Sanskrit this is known as grahanam or seizing.

What perhaps sounds like a childish story is a powerful metaphor for what actually happens when an eclipse takes place. Rahu and Ketu are the astronomical points in the sky respectively called the north and south lunar nodes.

There is also an interesting video by Carl Sagan(RIP) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E-_DdX8Ke0.Oh.. and I truly love it when he refers to trees as our cousins. I certaily don't know if what he said in the video is true or not, but it definitely is an interesting theory.

One school of thought thinks that to be true while the other outright rejects it saying creator is eternal.

Have you adopted a position that there is no soul (?chakra?), no reincarnation, no heaven/hell.

My soul dies with me.. If I die, I die. People tend to associate death as an act of god or fate, I would rather think as it it to be a natural death or accidental(Which is purely coincidental). Also, when I die... I know the people who care about me will feel sad.. or the people who truly hate me will be happy/relieved. That is where my life ends and my legacy begins.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

...but see what I'm saying, atheist is nothing more than another belief system. People switch to atheist thinking they are getting away from it all, but no, it's just another system.

This is patently false. Atheism is defined by what a person does not believe. Not believing a god exists is not a belief system. Not collecting stamps is not a hobby, as the classic example goes. You are simply mistaken.

Now try to think of a logical way that the universe was formed.

Please demonstrate first that the universe was "formed."

Everything has a beginning, if not, that's kinda breaking a law of physics.

Which law would that be, Einstein?

You can't create or destroy energy, such as individual atoms that make up matter, that's breaking a law of physics too. So how, in a world with zero supernatural force, could the universe have been created? To start this world, a force beyond it had to initiate it.

You have yet to demonstrate that the universe began at all. Even granting such a beginning, there's no reason to think that our universe was not begun by the termination of an earlier universe. Ever think of that one, genius?

It is impossible for a computer program to have "always existed".

Why's that? Because you say so? Because you can't imagine how it could happen?

Those are not good reasons to believe your proposition is true.

Some force that is beyond the system in which this program exists, had to create it. We all live inside a computer program, somebody had to design and build it and us. Think about it. This program we live in is actually the beta version of what our programmer has prepared for us, we just need to set our heart bit to 1 to allow our father to grant us full access to the new system. It has better redundancy, it never shuts down. It is eternal.

You just got done saying that it is impossible for a computer program to have an infinite past, but you have no problem allowing for a computer program to have an infinite future.

Do you not see the inconsistency in that?

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Just in case no one's said it yet, it doesn't take courage to reject religion, it takes courage to maintain your faith.