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Fatalities at Ariana Grande concert in Manchester, UK

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postmortemIA said:
It is their fault of not doing enough about it. They surely know who is radicalized among them, which mosques have radicalized imams and followers. And another word comes to mind - reform.
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We know there are violent white supremacists in the US. Why aren't you devoting every waking hour to stopping them, or advocating for reforms that make their groups illegal?

You'll likely have some good reasons, or at least plausible excuses, for not doing taking action: you don't have the time, you think the solution would involve unreasonable sacrifices, or you just feel helpless. Not that it's unrealistic to hope for something, just that asking for reform and implementing it are two different things.
 
FIVR said:
Facts:
1) It was an ISIS sleeper cell
2) They scouted the concert and bags were not being checked
3) Suicide bomber attacked the concert at the end of the last song
4) A second gunman attacked the closest hospital to the concert in order to disrupt emergency response vehicles and create more deaths/casualties
5) UK Media is highly censored and most of this stuff won't be available until later
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Social media would have revealed any of this. And the bomb went off outside of the arena after the concert.
 
Vic said:
Making 1.7 billion people illegal isn't going to turn criminal/terrorist extremists into law-abiding citizens either.
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Neither is letting terrorists in among us to rend flesh from bone. But I'll leave the deep dive into that for after the identity of the attacker is known. Otherwise it is premature to assume it belongs in this topic.
 
Commodus said:
We know there are violent white supremacists in the US. Why aren't you devoting every waking hour to stopping them, or advocating for reforms that make their groups illegal?

You'll likely have some good reasons, or at least plausible excuses, for not doing taking action: you don't have the time, you think the solution would involve unreasonable sacrifices, or you just feel helpless. Not that it's unrealistic to hope for something, just that asking for reform and implementing it are two different things.
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The closer analogy would be "why aren't white supremacists doing more to stop the violent white supremacists?" I don't recall anyone suggesting that middle easterners speak out against radical Islam by virtue of having darker skin.

And in all fairness, white supremacy groups are subject to quite a bit of domestic surveillance, and there are at least a few cases where the government has shot and killed members of separatist groups who may or may not have been a threat.

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BigDH01 said:
The closer analogy would be "why aren't white supremacists doing more to stop the violent white supremacists?" I don't recall anyone suggesting that middle easterners speak out against radical Islam by virtue of having darker skin.

And in all fairness, white supremacy groups are subject to quite a bit of domestic surveillance, and there are at least a few cases where the government has shot and killed members of separatist groups who may or may not have been a threat.

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Ah, but here's the problem: white supremacists are just one part of our cultural fabric. Many of them are self-proclaimed Christians, and most people in North America identify as Christian. So yes, it'd be more appropriate to ask why you aren't doing your part (not to actually put the onus on you, to be clear).

One thing to remember: Iraq and other Muslim-dominated countries are, in some cases, engulfed in active wars against extremists. They're fighting radicals in the most direct way possible.
 
Commodus said:
Ah, but here's the problem: white supremacists are just one part of our cultural fabric. Many of them are self-proclaimed Christians, and most people in North America identify as Christian. So yes, it'd be more appropriate to ask why you aren't doing your part (not to actually put the onus on you, to be clear).

One thing to remember: Iraq and other Muslim-dominated countries are, in some cases, engulfed in active wars against extremists. They're fighting radicals in the most direct way possible.
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True, but if we were to look at what made a white supremacist radicalized, it would probably be the Turner diaries or some grand wizard book or something. Meaning, the part of their identity "closest" to the violence is probably not their religion (if they are even religious, or American).

But yes, it is weird to ask people to apologize for their neighbors.

Regarding the remainder of your post, I'd find that argument more convincing if those same countries weren't fighting extremists and then executing apostates.

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Commodus said:
Sadly, counting down the seconds until one of our resident xenophobes tries to pretend this is the collective fault of 1.7 billion people (to some extent, one already has) instead of waiting for real answers and accepting the likely complexity of the situation.
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No.

What is sad are the groups of apologists that would somehow broadly paint anyone that points out the obvious as "xenophobes" or "racist" instead of accepting real concrete answers and understanding the simplicity of the situation.

Strawman arguments of "white supremacists" do nothing but misdirect and confuse, purposefully.

Once there is more information, this may be proven to just be a violent non-religious individual. However, only a fool would discount the daily and steady drumbeat of suicide bombers that hail from the same basic radicalized religious sect from a specific part of the world.

Nothing more than this needs to be said.
 
edcoolio said:
No.

What is sad are the groups of apologists that would somehow broadly paint anyone that points out the obvious as "xenophobes" or "racist" instead of accepting real concrete answers and understanding the simplicity of the situation.
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OK. What's the simplicity of the situation and your solution to it?
 
edcoolio said:
No.

What is sad are the groups of apologists that would somehow broadly paint anyone that points out the obvious as "xenophobes" or "racist" instead of accepting real concrete answers and understanding the simplicity of the situation.

Strawman arguments of "white supremacists" do nothing but misdirect and confuse, purposefully.

Once there is more information, this may be proven to just be a violent non-religious individual. However, only a fool would discount the daily and steady drumbeat of suicide bombers that hail from the same basic radicalized religious sect from a specific part of the world.

Nothing more than this needs to be said.
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Life isn't simple.

Blanket demonization of one of the largest religions in the world is childish, cowardly and dehumanizing. We've seen what happens when entire countries go down that dark path. Extremism is present in virtually every religion and other cultural group; deal with that, rather than entertaining ideas of wholesale bans or worse.

This doesn't mean that you pretend that a terrorist didn't claim to follow a particular faith... but don't presume that they represent their faith, because they rarely if ever do.
 
Commodus said:
Life isn't simple.

Blanket demonization of one of the largest religions in the world is childish, cowardly and dehumanizing. We've seen what happens when entire countries go down that dark path. Extremism is present in virtually every religion and other cultural group; deal with that, rather than entertaining ideas of wholesale bans or worse.

This doesn't mean that you pretend that a terrorist didn't claim to follow a particular faith... but don't presume that they represent their faith, because they rarely if ever do.
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Blanket demonization of large groups of individuals by calling them "childish" and "cowardly" and accusing them of "dehumanizing" an entire religion does not help your case.

It does, however, reinforce the belief that any contrarian views will be met with name calling.

Additionally, the blanket assumptions you make about anyone that does not agree with you strikes me as both defensive and disingenuous.

Preaching to the choir will only reinforce the faithful and add to the derision of the masses.

All of this having been said, you are (essentially) correct.
 
t1ZEZUd
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Commodus said:
Ah, but here's the problem: white supremacists are just one part of our cultural fabric. Many of them are self-proclaimed Christians, and most people in North America identify as Christian. So yes, it'd be more appropriate to ask why you aren't doing your part (not to actually put the onus on you, to be clear).

One thing to remember: Iraq and other Muslim-dominated countries are, in some cases, engulfed in active wars against extremists. They're fighting radicals in the most direct way possible.
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your excuses and lame diversions are shameful. just go away, your bullshit idealism is what fuels this horrible crap in the world.
 
Thanks a lot Trump. Way to create more terrorists. Oh wait, how else can Lockheed make more quick bucks.

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Now the death toll per CNBC is up to 22. Most of the victims are young girls (preteens and teens) and their moms or dads.

ABC News says one guy detonated an IED and the police is working to see if he is alone or a part of a larger network.
 
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GagHalfrunt said:
Most people won't steal your car, but you don't leave your keys in it because the odds are favorable. If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. Until the non-radical Islam nation stands up and says "this isn't us, we're 100% committed to ending this shit" and then actually back that up by working to end this shit they're going to get painted with the same brush.
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Yeah! And same thing goes for cops.
 
I would question the assumption that the bomber "acted alone" (per NYT). In a suicide bombing, someone had to make the vest. It's not likely they would use someone with explosives expertise as a bomber. Probably a cell.
 
UglyCasanova said:
Most are "peaceful", but there's something internal unique to Islam that makes them more susceptible to extremism and terrorism than otherwise would be. I used peaceful in quotes because it's not necessarily a word I'd describe those that treat women the way they do. I also wouldn't ascribe it to those that are against reproductive rights here in the US..
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What is the nature of that something internal?
 
OutHouse said:
your excuses and lame diversions are shameful. just go away, your bullshit idealism is what fuels this horrible crap in the world.
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Bullshit.

If you want to start ascribing blame to people that have nothing to do with it you might want to start looking to those that put the blame for the individual onto large groups of people.

Because that's the exact thinking thats fueling this.

You think it's a problem of all Muslims. ISIS think we're all Christian Crusaders and thus valid targets. You're both sharing that lovely philosophy that makes "others" of large groups of people that have nothing to do with your fight.
 
alcoholbob said:
I think he's being sarcastic. As Euros typically describe Islamic terrorists as "Asian" because calling them "Middle Eastern" or "Muslim" is considered politically incorrect in the Europe. But, still too soon to be joking.
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I'm not proud of getting involved in such a side-issue at this time, but it is an ongoing irritation that some Americans imagine that 'Muslims' are all from the 'Middle East'. A much larger number are from South Asia. Often a Muslim will be referred to as Asian because they are from Asia (and that is what is superficially easiest to note from just physical appearance). It's really not complicated.

Only a minority of the world's Muslims are Middle-Eastern - the lack of awareness of that fact seems to be a distorted perspective that some Americans have (hopefully only a minority of them).
 
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