Fat loss - how to lose the bulge and gain the ripples

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Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
Actually, in ancient society in China, the fat women are recognized as beautiful women. In my opinion, no matter what we look like, health is the most important point. If you are too fat and even have a bad influence on your health, then you can consult the doctor and be patient to lose weight. Everything should be finished step by step.
"The phenomenon of postprandial angina was described over 200 years ago: chest pain that occurs after a meal, even if you’re just sitting down and resting. The question is, why? It could be intuitively attributed to redistribution of blood flow away from the heart to the gut during digestion; however, such a mechanism could not be demonstrated experimentally. We now know the problem appears to be within the coronary arteries themselves.

The clue came in 1955, when researchers found they could induce angina in people with heart disease just by having them drink fat. This is what was happening in their bloodstream in the six hours after the meal. This is a graph of so-called lactescence, which means milkiness. Their blood became increasingly milky with fat over the next five hours, and each of the ten attacks of angina was found to occur about four-and-a-half to five hours after the fatty meal, right when blood milkiness was at or near its peak. Here’s the curve after a nonfat meal, same bulk and calories, but made out of starch, sugar, and protein. And no anginal pain was elicited in any of the patients they tested after the ingestion of the nonfat meal.

How could just the presence of fat in the blood affect blood flow to the heart? To understand that, we need to understand the endothelium: the inner lining of all of our blood vessels. Our arteries are not just rigid pipes, they are living breathing organs that actively dilate or constrict. Depending on what’s needed, they thin or thicken the blood, release hormones, and it’s all controlled by the single inner layer, the endothelium, making it the body’s largest endocrine organ, the largest hormone-secreting organ, weighing a total of three pounds all gathered up, with a combined surface area of 700 square yards.

We used to think the endothelium was just an inert layer lining our vascular tree, but now we know better. The endothelium is directly involved in peripheral vascular disease, stroke, heart disease, diabetes, insulin resistance, chronic kidney failure, tumor growth, metastases, venous thrombosis (blood clots), and severe viral infectious disease. Dysfunction of the vascular endothelium is thus a hallmark of human disease.

Researchers found that low-fat meals tend to improve endothelial function, and high-fat meals tend to worsen endothelial function. And this goes for animal fat, as well as isolated plant fats—sunflower oil, in this case.

But, maybe it’s just the digestion of fat rather than the fat itself? Our body can detect the presence of fat in the digestive tract and release a special group of hormones and enzymes to deal with it. So, researchers tried feeding people fake fat. The real fat deprived the heart of blood; the fake fat didn’t. But maybe our body is smart enough to know the difference?

This is the study that really nailed it. They tried infusing fat directly into people’s bloodstream through an IV, so the brain wouldn't know if you're eating fat or not. And indeed, within hours, their arteries stiffened, significantly crippling their ability to relax and dilate normally. This decrease in the ability to vasodilate coronary arteries after a fatty meal, just when you need it, could explain the phenomenon of after-meal angina in patients with known coronary artery disease."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rCg7Z3AvR0
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
34,245
6,047
126
Amazing, interesting post. I tend to shy away from fatty meals. It's not that I am aware of having had an attack or anything like that. I vaguely remember feeling strange after very fatty meals, though.

Most of my fat intake is organic extra virgin olive oil. I cook with no other and what little meat I eat is as lean as I can manage it. The rest of my fat intake is mostly incidental, such as from fresh eggs and nuts, seeds and whole grains.

DixyCrat's post has me thinking that it's best to avoid really fatty meals. It can be a real challenge in America! Younger, I enjoyed all that stuff. I've developed a sense of guilt when it comes to cake, ice cream, pizza, burgers, fries, rich desserts. I'm healthy enough where I know (think!) they won't do me in or anything, but controlling my body weight (and being healthy!) is a high priority for me.
 

mike8675309

Senior member
Jul 17, 2013
477
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116
There really hasn't been found any oil that doesn't have a negative impact on endothelial function. Though eating other plant foods with meals of extra virgin olive oil can provide sufficient anti-oxidants to offset the impact of the oil.

There have been studies, though, showing even extra virgin olive oil, contrary to expectations, may significantly impair endothelial function as well. So why do some studies suggest people’s endothelial function improves on a Mediterranean diet, a diet rich in olive oil? Perhaps because it’s also rich in whole grains, fruits, vegetables, beans, and walnuts, as well. Dietary fruits and vegetables appear to provide some protection against the direct impairment of endothelial function produced by high-fat foods, including olive oil. So, improvements in health may be in spite of, rather than because of, the oil. In terms of their effects on postprandial endothelial function (after a meal), the beneficial components of the Mediterranean diet may primarily be the antioxidant-rich foods—the vegetables, fruits, and their derivatives, such as balsamic vinegar. Just adding some vegetables to a fatty meal may partially restore arterial functioning and blood flow.
https://youtu.be/A4WD8Bm7s_I
 
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Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
For most of our evolutionary history food = fiber.

If we don't get our 100 grams of fiber a day we may feel we are starving.

 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
34,245
6,047
126
Using my default browser, Pale Moon, when I try to hit the. Check out the link here in the OP to get my BMR I get a page that looks for all the world like an attempt to shake me down. It says this:
------------------------
support.windows.com says:

** Windows Warning Alert **

Malicious Pornographic Spyware/Riskware Detected

Error #

Please call us immediately at: (888) 765-2363
Do not ignore this critical alert.
If you close this page, your computer access will be disabled to prevent further damage to our network.
Your computer has alerted us that it has been infected with a Pornographic Spyware and riskware. The following information is being stolen...
> Financial Data
> Facebook Logins
> Credit Card Details
> Email Account Logins
> Photos stored on this computer
You must contact us immediately so that our expert engineers can walk you through the removal process over the phone to protect your identity. Please call us within the next 5 minutes to prevent your computer from being disabled or from any information loss.

Toll Free: (888) 765-2363
Prevent this page from creating additional dialogues.
------------------------

Have I got some kind of infection here?
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
34,245
6,047
126
I got the page using Edge. I don't see where I get my BMR. Searching for BMR or Total Energy Requirement gets a Not Found. What am I looking for on that page to find it?

Ran Superantispyware, which removed over 1300 tracking cookies. Seems to have stopped the problem in Pale Moon. However, the page I get I don't see BMR calculation. However, I found this searching on BMR:

http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/
 
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JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
28,339
1,889
126
It seems like when I over eat for a few days, I get hungry more quickly even when I go back to my normal caloric intake.

And I can't resist the hunger and I snack.
So normal caloric intake + snacking= more over eating

Vicious cycle. :(

The way I break it is go-to the casino and play poker for 10hrs.
The only thing I have is water.
My concentration at the poker table overrides the hunger pains.

A weekend of this and my body is back to the normal caloric intake
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
34,245
6,047
126
So normal caloric intake + snacking= more over eating
My thought is don't snack... i.e. only eat when you're hungry. A zen master said, "I eat when I'm hungry, that's my miracle."

If you don't snack, you have a major leg up on over-weight issues. The main thing that could concern you then is being thoughtful enough about your meals.
 
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mike8675309

Senior member
Jul 17, 2013
477
100
116
I got the page using Edge. I don't see where I get my BMR. Searching for BMR or Total Energy Requirement gets a Not Found. What am I looking for on that page to find it?

Ran Superantispyware, which removed over 1300 tracking cookies. Seems to have stopped the problem in Pale Moon. However, the page I get I don't see BMR calculation. However, I found this searching on BMR:

http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/
I use this link
http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/
Enter your info and press Calculate BMR
The BMR is calculated and put inside a green line above the place where you entered the data. Just below the text " body's ability to burn energy gradually slows down." and just above an ad.
 

PeterScott

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2017
2,605
1,540
106
For most of our evolutionary history food = fiber.

If we don't get our 100 grams of fiber a day we may feel we are starving.

I switched to primarily eating Whole Plant Foods (completely eliminating meat/eggs/dairy) late last year, because I want a longer healthy lifespan. When I put my daily food into Cronometer, I had something like 300% the recommended amount of fiber.

IMO the recommendations are completely inadequate, and it isn't just getting the fiber, its the source that matter. IMO taking Metamucil on top of the SAD(Standard American Diet) way of eating isn't really going to do much for your health.

So often magic bullets are sought to tack onto the SAD. People who eat more fiber have better outcomes, so stack this fiber powder on top of your SAD eating pattern. People with higher antioxidant profiles have better outcomes, so add this antioxidant pill with your SAD eating pattern.

There is no magic ingredient in plants. Whole plant food benefits are greater than the benefit of any isolated part, and they replace all the crap in the SAD, that is wrecking health (processed food and animal products). More good stuff (or only good stuff) and less bad stuff (or none at all).

Eat mostly whole plant foods for your health, and weight management will likely take care of itself.
 
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Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
I switched to primarily eating Whole Plant Foods (completely eliminating meat/eggs/dairy) late last year, because I want a longer healthy lifespan. When I put my daily food into Cronometer, I had something like 300% the recommended amount of fiber.

IMO the recommendations are completely inadequate, and it isn't just getting the fiber, its the source that matter. IMO taking Metamucil on top of the SAD(Standard American Diet) way of eating isn't really going to do much for your health.

So often magic bullets are sought to tack onto the SAD. People who eat more fiber have better outcomes, so stack this fiber powder on top of your SAD eating pattern. People with higher antioxidant profiles have better outcomes, so add this antioxidant pill with your SAD eating pattern.

There is no magic ingredient in plants. Whole plant food benefits are greater than the benefit of any isolated part, and they replace all the crap in the SAD, that is wrecking health (processed food and animal products). More good stuff (or only good stuff) and less bad stuff (or none at all).

Eat mostly whole plant foods for your health, and weight management will likely take care of itself.
Great point, my primary source of fiber is my primary source of protein - Black beans!
 

PeterScott

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2017
2,605
1,540
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Beans/Legumes are a powerhouse of nutrition.

Chick Peas are my favorite.

Unfortunately I can't eat as many as I like without gastro issues. Hopefully I gain more tolerance over time...
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
34,245
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Well, getting your protein strictly from vegetable sources has its problems. Complete vegetarian proteins are rare, to start with. Vitamin B12 is almost impossible to get from vegetarian sources. I'm not saying you can't go no meat/dairy but it's a non-trivial challenge. What's so bad about some meat/dairy in addition to vegetable?
 

mike8675309

Senior member
Jul 17, 2013
477
100
116
Well, getting your protein strictly from vegetable sources has its problems. Complete vegetarian proteins are rare, to start with. Vitamin B12 is almost impossible to get from vegetarian sources. I'm not saying you can't go no meat/dairy but it's a non-trivial challenge. What's so bad about some meat/dairy in addition to vegetable?
Um, but for may be 2 plant food items in the world, every plant has protein and every protein in a plant has the full amino acid profile (what can vary widely is the amount of amino acids by weight). B-12 comes from a is made by bacteria in the soil, so unless you eat dirty plants or drink run off water you are going to need to supplement B-12. If you are eating animal products the majority of people are eating supplements as factory farming practices have caused animals to not get enough B-12 (or cobalt in the case of ruminants) so the animals get their B-12 supplemented.

Building muscle and being healthy when eating only plant based foods is trivial once you educate yourself. Why do you have to educate yourself? Because in most of our society all of the education we have had so far has been on eating animal products. Makes sense that you would need to educate yourself on eating plants... I.e. the need to supplement B-12.

While we are at it, another supplement that most people should take, particularly in the winter months for the southern latitudes is Vitamin D. With much of our society spending much of their day indoors or completely covered with clothing, most of us don't make enough Vitamin D thus in much of North America vitamin D deficiencies are a real problem.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
34,245
6,047
126
Vitamin D is a mystery to me. I was taking it and a thread here made me think I should stop. I was taking Calcium fortified with D, and my research indicated I should stop, don't remember the details, this was around 3 years ago or so. I sometimes get a fair amount of sun (warmer weather), can go for periods where I don't.

B-12. Well, some years ago I got into tempeh, I learned how to make my own soy bean tempeh and got very good at it, using The Book of Tempeh as a guide.



Tempeh, it was maintained, was the only vegetarian source of B-12, IIRC. Homemade tempeh is a project but not daunting, I could do it again. I think I was bored with it and just gave it up. There are a lot of things you can do with it, made with soy beans (there are many other kinds, but soy is the most common and the highest in protein), it can be prepared many ways, but the most tasty to me (and I think the most commonly prepared in Indonesia, where it was and probably still is a basic staple to the populous) was cut in strips and pan fried crisp. I tried other methods, too, but mostly stuck with frying. It's a super cheap way to get your protein requirement fulfilled in a vegetarian manner, if you make it yourself from scratch with dry soy beans and tempeh starter (which that book teaches you how to make). I made my own tempeh starter from a piece of soy tempeh I bought in a health food store and I was on my way. Pound for pound, soy tempeh is very nearly as protein rich as meat, say, beef, and of course, way cheaper. More environmentally friendly, of course, by far.
 
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PeterScott

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2017
2,605
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Tempeh is not a reliable source of B12:
https://www.tempeh.info/health/vitaminB12.php

There is no reliable natural vegan source of B12 in our modern sanitized world. B12 production is essentially exclusive to bacteria, and we tend to avoid eating bacteria with our food now.

But it is added to processed vegan food like Soy milk if you are utterly adverse to taking a supplement.

Though that aversion seems strange, given that most of the B12 in animal products is from the same B12 supplement given to the animal in their feed.

Taking a supplement is somehow a problem, but you think it's OK to feed that same supplement to an animal, and then kill that animal and eat it, to get your b12.

That seems like a rather convoluted way to pretend you aren't getting B12 from supplements.

We are all getting B12 from supplements one way or another, and pointing at b12 supplementation like it is some kind of major downside of a Vegan diet seems rather specious.

The protein issue is a non issue, unless you are a fruitarian. Vegtables/grains/legumes/nuts/seeds all have adequate complete protein.

Even if you ate nothing but the lowly potato, you would still have adequate protein and all essential amino acids. And Grains/Legumes/Nuts/Seeds only improve it from there.
 
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mike8675309

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Jul 17, 2013
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Calcium supplementation should be avoided unless your dietary restrictions prevent you from eating foods plentiful in Calcium. The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine published a good breakdown of whole foods that are high in calcium.
http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/vsk/vegetarian-starter-kit-calcium

Calcium supplements have more risk than any questionable benefit. From a doctor:
http://www.pharmacytimes.com/contributor/gunda-siska-pharmd/2017/04/why-i-do-not-routinely-recommend-calcium-supplements-to-maintain-strong-bones
I NEVER recommend men put themselves on calcium because it has been linked to prostate cancer.3 The risk does not outweigh the benefits, in my opinion.
 

PeterScott

Platinum Member
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Annoying how at the end he says they found an interesting result that will get to later, but I can't find a followup. :(

IMO, the problem with trying to be a healthy omnivore, is that moderation is often much harder than abstinence. How do you know, how much moderation is enough?

I have been going the healthy omnivore route for almost 20 years. I exercise (jog, and do home based strength training), I don't smoke, don't do drugs, only drink one or two drinks on special occasions (I have less than 6 drinks/year). I am quite lean (BMI 20.4).

My big push to a healthy lifestyle was in my early thirties when my optometrist told me to get my cholesterol checked because I was getting Arcus Senilis, cholesterol deposits, he didn't expect to see until I was in my 60's. I was living on a junk food through most of my 20s, and had never had cholesterol checked.

So I limited cheese to no more than an ounce/day, averaged less than 1 egg/day. Limited processed foods drastically, Added 4-5 servings fruits/vegs, don't ever drink sugared drinks of any kind, so no pop/juice, and no sugar in my tea/coffee. I only eat minimally processed cereal (old fashioned oats/shredded wheat) again no added sugar, but add nuts/fruit instead. Eat 2 serving of fatty fish/week for omega 3s, and a couple of years ago, cut out red/processed meat.

Essentially everything a healthy omnivore should do. My cholesterol is still over 200, not by a lot, but that isn't good enough.

So I have taken the next step, and eliminated meat/eggs/dairy completely. But I am not completely vegan, I am currently going with 2 servings of omega 3 rich fish/week, but that may be subject to change. There are a lot of nasty organic pollutants in fish.

In some ways it is easier. There are no more decisions about how much of a potentially cholesterol raising food is the right moderate amount, I just ignore it as non food.

I will get another blood test later this year, I am very interested to see the impact of this change.
 

mike8675309

Senior member
Jul 17, 2013
477
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That video is from Volume 8 of Dr. Gregors video series. All the videos from that series can be found here:
https://nutritionfacts.org/season/volume-8/
I believe the video where he touched on the other item was this one.
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/epic-findings-on-lymphoma/


I get my DHA-EPA from this supplement.
https://www.iherb.com/pr/Deva-Vegan-Omega-3-DHA-EPA-300-mg-90-Vegan-Softgels/55158

Work to get your cholesterol below 150 (that's what I'm shooting for. Very few if any heart attacks occur with someone with a total cholesterol below 150. People have heart attacks and often die every day with a cholesterol as low as 160.
My last cholesterol test was in 2015 about 6 months after I switched to a plant based diet and t was 168 mg/dL. Too low for insurance to pay to have it retested yet, currently not scheduled till 2020. I'll try and pay for it to be tested this year.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
Annoying how at the end he says they found an interesting result that will get to later, but I can't find a followup. :(

IMO, the problem with trying to be a healthy omnivore, is that moderation is often much harder than abstinence. How do you know, how much moderation is enough?

I have been going the healthy omnivore route for almost 20 years. I exercise (jog, and do home based strength training), I don't smoke, don't do drugs, only drink one or two drinks on special occasions (I have less than 6 drinks/year). I am quite lean (BMI 20.4).

My big push to a healthy lifestyle was in my early thirties when my optometrist told me to get my cholesterol checked because I was getting Arcus Senilis, cholesterol deposits, he didn't expect to see until I was in my 60's. I was living on a junk food through most of my 20s, and had never had cholesterol checked.

So I limited cheese to no more than an ounce/day, averaged less than 1 egg/day. Limited processed foods drastically, Added 4-5 servings fruits/vegs, don't ever drink sugared drinks of any kind, so no pop/juice, and no sugar in my tea/coffee. I only eat minimally processed cereal (old fashioned oats/shredded wheat) again no added sugar, but add nuts/fruit instead. Eat 2 serving of fatty fish/week for omega 3s, and a couple of years ago, cut out red/processed meat.

Essentially everything a healthy omnivore should do. My cholesterol is still over 200, not by a lot, but that isn't good enough.

So I have taken the next step, and eliminated meat/eggs/dairy completely. But I am not completely vegan, I am currently going with 2 servings of omega 3 rich fish/week, but that may be subject to change. There are a lot of nasty organic pollutants in fish.

In some ways it is easier. There are no more decisions about how much of a potentially cholesterol raising food is the right moderate amount, I just ignore it as non food.

I will get another blood test later this year, I am very interested to see the impact of this change.
After 55 the body has a harder time processing protean and fish may be advisable despite the nasty organic pollutants. That said, I get my omega-3s from a vegan source; and eat enough beans that I'm over the daily suggestions for all the micro nutrients.


My last cholesterol test was in 2015 about 6 months after I switched to a plant based diet and t was 168 mg/dL. Too low for insurance to pay to have it retested yet, currently not scheduled till 2020. I'll try and pay for it to be tested this year.
Alternatively you can get your LDL below 70. My wife went from an LDL of 126 before going whole plant to an LDL of 68 after going whole plant.
 
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Bardock

Senior member
Mar 12, 2014
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Just read about Oceana study in 2013. The are an ocean preservation think tank and did a research study on what species of fish is actually being sold.

They went to over 100 resteraunts in nyc and over 80% that said they had white tuna were selling escolar, a toxic fish outlawed in japan since the 70s they call snake makerel. It is known to be toxic and give people the runs at least, and lives deep in the worlds oceans, fisherman know what it is and know one can say who is mislabeling, is it fictitious or accident, but just saying I would love to grow my own foods.

That being said I am eating chicken and turkey a lot and a lot of fruit and yogurt.

My body is skinny now and I dont watch what I eat other than I dont drink any booze.

People dont realize how much weight and negative health consequence comes from their drinking until they stop and it goes away.

Also, I have been not eating as much and walking for miles every day.

I do a little calisthenics at home and have never belonged to a gym or felt comfortable, welcome there.
 
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Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
Replace animal products with beans whenever you can and you’ll be healthier and have a lower likelihood of disability.
 

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