[Extremetech] Nvidia’s GameWorks program usurps power from developers, end-users, AMD

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blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
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Mantle is clearly backing Nvidia (JHH) into a corner.



There are going to be 2 confirmed Mantle titles next year which are definite confirmed release dates. Thief and BF4. That's it. Star Citizen? Unknown release date. Or I should say, they're releasing modules slowly as they're getting crowd funding. Last I heard the complete full game with all modules isn't slated until 2015. Other frostbite titles were rumored to have Mantle but will not - see NFS: Rivals. That game has a 30 fps limit too. I'm sure mantle would help a lot for that 30 fps hard coded limit, even with the graphics looking terrible. Other frostbite titles? Unknown unconfirmed release dates. Moreover, the most important engine to get Mantle into will not have it. Unreal engine 3 and 4 will not have native Mantle support - Epic games and Tim Sweeney in particular have expressed clearly that they have no desire to use Mantle or proprietary APIs. That's a huge deal because Unreal Engine is *the* most commonly used multiplatform engine in 80% of all multiplatform games. Therefore any developer using UE4 will have to rewrite a significant portion of the engine's code to use Mantle, which costs significant time, money and resources.

Pretty sure physx will have more titles than Mantle next year. I don't really care about physx that much yet reading this title makes one think that 100% of titles will have Mantle next year - excuse me while I roll my eyes. Cuz that isn't happening - few games will use it in 2014, with 2 confirmed release dates so far. (the already released BF4, and thief as mentioned..) Also, reading this daily dose of comedy thread, one would think NV is on the brink of bankruptcy because of Mantle alone. Hilarious. Anyway, yeah. Backed into a corner. While having 65% discrete GPU market share in Q3 2013, up from 62% discrete GPU market share @ Q3 2012. Being that discrete sales went from 50-50 in 2010 to almost 7 in 10 buying nvidia in 2013, I think nvidia knows what they're doing to please PC gamers. Maybe they're not pleasing crypto coin miners, but the demographic that matters - PC gamers - a lot of them do like nvidia. In fact, it seems the majority of PC gamers are preferring nvidia based on dGPU share alone.

Don't get me wrong. I think Mantle is great for competition and hope it does well. I also think AMD needed to use value added features to help sell their cards, and Mantle is a good start. Value added software features is precisely why nvidia has done so well in the past couple of years with their increasing dGPU market share. So while I think mantle is great, I have to laugh at the level of hyperbole (about Mantle) in this thread.
 
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krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,596
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Mantle is clearly backing Nvidia (JHH) into a corner.

In the Tom's Hardware Ask Me Anything Q&A, here, held shortly after APU13, the AMD rep said developers contacting AMD about Mantle was substantial and accelerating.

I have seen no indication from the existing Mantle developer's presentations and Q&A sessions to indicate something other than substantial performance increases from Mantle.

If BF4 Mantle performance increase is substantial (probable), and there's ongoing news of developers climbing on board the Mantle wagon (probable), what are Nvidia's options?

Nvidia (JHH) backed into a corner looking at a fairly sudden and serious erosion of a key cash flow market if and until Mantle is made available to it - it would be naïve to think JHH isn't working furiously behind the scenes to delay or derail Mantle in any way he can. GameWorks could be useful in that endeavor.

I'm curious to see what, if anything, JHH can pull out of his black hat of tricks to actually derail Mantle.

Nvidia have always used the same agressive, sleazy, creative marketing tricks. Its a huge part of their success and reason for their brand value today on the b2c market. Not their technology or products. They cant do anything more agressive or it will backfire. There is imho nothing new in this story. Nv have always focused on competition before anything else.

The difference today is rr is not a nice guy like prior amd executives so he will take the fight. RR comes from retail and that is a bloody battlefield of all places. So jhh will get the same treatement as he gives everyone else. Its going to be fun to watch. Lol.
 

tranger2d4

Banned
Dec 27, 2013
7
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There are going to be 2 confirmed Mantle titles next year which are definite confirmed release dates. Thief and BF4. That's it.

Most gamers buy a high end graphics card for the next several years. They look at the overall available data relating to that time frame. That's certainly what I do.

EA has committed to 16 Mantle games, including several big AAA titles I will definitely play. Star citizen, Thief. Oxide is likely to be widely used by developers for their future AAA RTS games which I am very interested in and all those games will have Mantle.

I have no reason to disbelieve the AMD rep in the Q&A session saying the number of developers contacting AMD about Mantle was already substantial and accelerating. I have seen no compelling reason delineated most of them wouldn't also get on board with Mantle.

All those developers that implement Mantle will then have the option to do what EA is doing with BF4, retrofit their next gen games.

Your argument doesn't stand up.
 

Vesku

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2005
3,743
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Arbitrary numbers cannot show or prove anything...except that they are arbitrary numbers.

Your numbers hold no more truth than these numbers:


Game A Neutral development
AMD GPU = 1fps (DX11)
NV GPU = 100fps (DX11)

Game A with Mantle
AMD GPU = 13fps (Mantle)
NV GPU = 100fps (DX11)

Game A with GameWorks
AMD GPU = 7fps (DX11)
NV GPU = 130fps (GameWorks)

Now NVIDIA "wins"...and AMD loses.
But Mantle gives AMD a 10 x performance over DX11!!!!!!oneoneone!!!!

Can you see how flawed that kind of "logic" is now?

Perhaps this will better clarify the situation:

DX11 Game A none proprietary development
AMD GPU = GPU Vendor can optimize (DX11)
NV GPU = GPU Vendor can optimize (DX11)

DX11 Game A with Mantle
AMD GPU = AMD can optimize (Mantle)
NV GPU = GPU Vendor can optimize (DX11)

DX11 Game A with GameWorks
AMD GPU = Non-Nvidia GPU Vendor finds it extremely difficult to optimize (DX11 using GameWorks Nvidia controlled libraries)
NV GPU = Nvidia can optimize (DX11 using GameWorks Nvidia controlled libraries)
 
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tranger2d4

Banned
Dec 27, 2013
7
0
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The difference today is rr is not a nice guy like prior amd executives so he will take the fight. RR comes from retail and that is a bloody battlefield of all places. So jhh will get the same treatement as he gives everyone else. Its going to be fun to watch. Lol.

Lol. I've thought the same. RR won't hesitate to pole-axe the competition if the opportunity arises. As with Mantle + 2xx AIB price points.

I've seen articles stating AMD is splitting their GPU fabrication to include GF. I think RR is planning to sell a lot of 2xx cards and doesn't want any production bottlenecks that would limit availability or artificially push prices up, both of which would give Nvidia breathing space he doesn't want them to have.
 
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SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
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Business practices like these are why I generally don't purchase Nvidia products these days (and it doesn't hurt that the AMD parts are generally less expensive for similar performance).
 

DiogoDX

Senior member
Oct 11, 2012
757
336
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This looks like a nothing story to be honest. Arkham Origins benchmarks already showed R9 280X to compete with GTX770 and R9 290X to compete with GTX780.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?clie...tbnh=188&tbnw=181&start=0&ndsp=66&tx=77&ty=73

From that result it looks like Nvidia and AMD compete quite well and within expectations.
People have to understand that the performance numbers aren't important. The crucial part is not allow AMD optimization in DirectX.

Is normal that a TWYMTBP game runs better on Nvidia but don't permit AMD optimizations is just dirty.

I would like to see the reaction if AMD had done the same with Dirt Sowdown, Tomb Raider, Battlefield 4, etc ...
 

tranger2d4

Banned
Dec 27, 2013
7
0
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Game A Neutral development
AMD GPU = 1fps (DX11)
NV GPU = 100fps (DX11)

Game A with Mantle
AMD GPU = 13fps (Mantle)
NV GPU = 100fps (DX11)

Game A with GameWorks
AMD GPU = 7fps (DX11)
NV GPU = 130fps (GameWorks)

Now NVIDIA "wins"...and AMD loses.
But Mantle gives AMD a 10 x performance over DX11!!!!!!oneoneone!!!!

Can you see how flawed that kind of "logic" is now?

That's incredible. I can totally see how flawed that kind of 'logic' is now.

Nicely done!!!
 

96Firebird

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 2010
5,743
340
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...doesn't want any production bottlenecks that would limit availability or artificially push prices up, both of which would give Nvidia breathing space he doesn't want them to have.

You mean like what has happened for the past couple months?
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
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I have no reason to disbelieve the AMD rep in the Q&A session saying the number of developers contacting AMD about Mantle was already substantial and accelerating. I have seen no compelling reason delineated most of them wouldn't also get on board with Mantle.

Oh yeah. Sure. If you're an AMD marketer or take AMD marketing at face value, the same guys that brought us JD-AMD and his lies, we have no reason to not believe AMD marketing. If you take AMD marketing slides as the gospel, you have no reason to not believe AMD marketing. Sure.

Meanwhile, back to reality where nvidia is actually winning and winning big in discrete graphics and their market share from non miners - the demographic that matters, being PC gamers - they are preferred 7 out of 10 and their lead has increased over the past year in terms of discrete GPU sales.

Like I said hopefully Mantle will be good. I think AMD needs value adds, because value adds are why nvidia has done so well. But one would have to be delusional to take AMD marketing at face value, as opposed to objective benchmarks and actual confirmed release titles. I mean these are the same marketing scumbags that brought us JF-AMD. How many people waited for Bulldozer based on his lies? Probably more than a few. And as far as titles. Point stands. There are still only 2 confirmed titles for 2014 using Mantle. Two titles with absolute confirmed release dates in 2014 - Thief and BF4.
 
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tranger2d4

Banned
Dec 27, 2013
7
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You mean like what has happened for the past couple months?

Yep. Don't think GF is ramped up yet, think I say speculation somewhere of a March timeframe for that. Meeting their mandated GF wafer quota with actual product instead of just handing GF money is a big part of it too.

Killing two birds with one stone.
 

rtsurfer

Senior member
Oct 14, 2013
733
15
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You mean like what has happened for the past couple months?

As if this dead horse hasnt been beaten enough.

Blame US retailers and miners.
The PRICES and STOCK both seem to be fine in other parts of the world.

Not AMD's fault.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,596
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Yep. Don't think GF is ramped up yet, think I say speculation somewhere of a March timeframe for that. Meeting their mandated GF wafer quota with actual product instead of just handing GF money is a big part of it too.

Killing two birds with one stone.

Gf leaking 28nm process is probably perfect for big dgpu. Makes perfect sense. Because of the wsa the market is then flooded with dirt cheap 280/290. 300 usd 290x comming q2. Lol.
 

MrK6

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2004
4,458
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As if this dead horse hasnt been beaten enough.

Blame US retailers and miners.
The PRICES and STOCK both seem to be fine in other parts of the world.

Not AMD's fault.
Being sold out at every major retailer even after your products have been marked upis a 25-30% is an enviable position, I don't think AMD is complaining much in its board meetings. It's good to see there are plans to ramp up production to meet increased demand.
 

SirPauly

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2009
5,187
1
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The author makes no sense at all:


Can this be traced directly back to GameWorks? Technically, no it can’t

And yet all this fear mongering and oddness in the article!
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,596
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Being sold out at every major retailer even after your products have been marked upis a 25-30% is an enviable position, I don't think AMD is complaining much in its board meetings. It's good to see there are plans to ramp up production to meet increased demand.

Pure luck for amd. The only thing preventing a very bad q4 for amd outside of consoles.

Ot. Who cares if nv creates all kinds of patches. There is no way this can prevent or slow down mantle adoption. The consoles are here. Uses the same cgn hardware. Similar if not compatible code. No one wants to be left behind of EA stellar engine as everyone wants to stay compettive and have the best for consoles and pc. Pieces of software and cash can not change that.
 

SirPauly

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2009
5,187
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What is so ridiculous is the percentage hit is similar with the nVidia and AMD SKU's using GameWorks with Origins and AMD owners receive the higher quality feature, too!
 

Erenhardt

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2012
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What is so ridiculous is the percentage hit is similar with the nVidia and AMD SKU's using GameWorks with Origins and AMD owners receive the higher quality feature, too!

Imagine if AMD could optimize their drivers and game code on top of that. Why punishing your fans, for what reason? That doesn't make any sense from developer standpoint. Meanwhile, nv is: :awe:
 

SirPauly

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2009
5,187
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The point or the author would carry some weight if there was this tremendous performance difference --- AMD gamers win -- they receive a higher quality feature with a similar hit as the nVidia counterparts!
 

DownTheSky

Senior member
Apr 7, 2013
800
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[redacted]

wait.. wait.. I knew that already. :awe:

You can't compare what AMD is trying to do with Mantle with how Nvidia plays the game.

Infraction issued for inappropriate language.
-- stahlhart
 
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DiogoDX

Senior member
Oct 11, 2012
757
336
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What is so ridiculous is the percentage hit is similar with the nVidia and AMD SKU's using GameWorks with Origins and AMD owners receive the higher quality feature, too!
I repeat. The performance is not important. The problem is blocking AMD optimizations in DirectX.

No surprise that the same people that says mantle been close to AMD is bad for the gamers are OK with this.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,219
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I repeat. The performance is not important. The problem is blocking AMD optimizations in DirectX.

No surprise that the same people that says mantle been close to AMD is bad for the gamers are OK with this.

Which people?