[Extremetech] Nvidia’s GameWorks program usurps power from developers, end-users, AMD

[ICDP]

This looks like a nothing story to be honest. Arkham Origins benchmarks already showed R9 280X to compete with GTX770 and R9 290X to compete with GTX780.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?clie...tbnh=188&tbnw=181&start=0&ndsp=66&tx=77&ty=73

From that result it looks like Nvidia and AMD compete quite well and within expectations.

 

[Schmeh39]

You're missing the point Sontin. On a game basis Nvidia can always optimize DX, so they can always optimize the game. With GameWorks AMD can no longer optimize the game, period.

This is way worse than Mantle yet the Nv guys are lining up to defend it, while simultaneously dropping their recently found love of open standards.

No surprise really. :|

Let me put the questions back to you - what's stopping AMD from making their own libraries and doing the same thing? This is *exactly* what you and others have been saying about Mantle - yes *you*. Who's the hypocrite?

Let me get this straight...

It's Nvidia's fault that developers decide to use the libraries provided by Nvidia.

or

Its's Nvidia's fault that AMD is not providing comparable libraries to developers.

or

It's up to Nvidia to make sure that their software and libraries perform well on AMD's hardware.

I think I got it. But I don't think you are really grasping how evil Nvidia is. How dare they build GPUs that outperform AMD's. If they had an ounce of dignity, they would design AMD's GPUs for them, and cripple their own. That way nothing would ever run better on Nvidia hardware. I think we're on to something here. I'll bring this discussion up over in the CPU forum, so that we can shed light on how evil Intel has been by producing CPUs that outperform AMD CPUs.

 

[Silverforce11]

Where did the consoles come in again?

And what do you call Mantle? Also AMD uses same closed libraries for DX.

Mantle would NOT exist without AMD securing next gen console wins a long time ago. Feel free to argue otherwise though.

It's "Who didn't SEE this coming?" and can you show us any evidence that Nvidia is bribing developers? You know as well as I do that Nvidia dedicates actual physical onsite assistance to developers in the form of tech support and coding, but actual money does not change hands. If you have evidence of the latter, then please provide it. Otherwise do not post things like this.

As soon as I hack into NV's uber secret books where they keep all the bank accounts of various developers, I will be sure to let you know. Until then, I'm gonna keep on thinking they have been bribing developers on their NV logo program for years. It could be cash, girls, sports cars, entire studio full of NV hardware or several highly paid technical staff on site... heck, it could even be private joy rides with JHH's fabulous super cars!

We aren't gonna get definitely proof: http://www.kitguru.net/components/g...2-being-re-designed-for-gtx580-expect-delays/
But where's there smoke...

 

[Leadbox]

Gameworks will shake up the industry just like physx did/does

 

[Gloomy]

Gameworks will shake up the industry just like physx did/does

I agree, it will have the same impact Physx had/has :thumbsup:

 

[ShintaiDK]

Mantle would NOT exist without AMD securing next gen console wins a long time ago. Feel free to argue otherwise though.

Mantle got nothing to do with consoles. And the Xbox One even uses DX.

 

[Silverforce11]

I agree, it will have the same impact Physx had/has :thumbsup:

Hopefully more than a few games a year. Ever since AMD launched their GE program bribing developers with exotic dancers and fancy caffeinated drinks, they've had a lot of GE games and major AAA wins. It's about time NV got busy.

 

[Silverforce11]

Mantle got nothing to do with consoles. And the Xbox One even uses DX.

Sure.. developers would LOVE to use GCN-specific Mantle even if consoles all ran NV hardware.. they would love it so much they would support it in all the major gaming engines.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Sure.. developers would LOVE to use GCN-specific Mantle even if consoles all ran NV hardware.. they would love it so much they would support it in all the major gaming engines.

Console developers dont have anything to do with GCN. They code for DX, OpenGL and LibGCM. For for them, they couldnt care less on what the hardware was running.

 

[Leadbox]

Console developers dont have anything to do with GCN. They code for DX, OpenGL and LibGCM. For for them, they couldnt care less on what the hardware was running.

Optimized to run on GCN

 

[Lonbjerg]

Console developers dont have anything to do with GCN. They code for DX, OpenGL and LibGCM. For for them, they couldnt care less on what the hardware was running.

I wonder why the Mantle + console myth keeps persisting?

 

[ShintaiDK]

Optimized to run on GCN

For the developers its a blackbox.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I wonder why the Mantle + console myth keeps persisting?

Only way to keep the hyperbole running, specially since the BF4 patch is MIA. NFS:Rivals havent seen mantle either. C&C cancelled. Seems Frostbite titles "supporting" Mantle drops fast.

 

[Leadbox]

For the developers its a blackbox.

Its more than that and you know it

 

[Imouto]

Console developers dont have anything to do with GCN. They code for DX, OpenGL and LibGCM. For for them, they couldnt care less on what the hardware was running.

AMD helped developing the APIs for both consoles. It's only natural for the designer of the APU to do so. AMD and quite a bunch of developers think that Mantle will be a major step leveraging performance and visuals with a low level API close to the ones present into the consoles.

Console APIs and Mantle have at least two factors in common. A developer and the hardware they're designed for.

 

[5150Joker]

That whole article was pure unadulterated FUD. Guess that website wanted some quick hits and ad revenue.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Its more than that and you know it

Its certainly not. The developers work out from the APIs. They dont care how the driver and hardware talks together.

 

[Silverforce11]

Console developers dont have anything to do with GCN. They code for DX, OpenGL and LibGCM. For for them, they couldnt care less on what the hardware was running.

You must be one of the few here who believes that if AMD hadn't won the consoles, Mantle would exist or supported in major game engines.

It's no coincidence, those who think it is are fooling nobody.

 

[Erenhardt]

It looks like exact opposite to what happened with GE title Tomb Raider (2013). Game had problems with nv hardware. NV didn't receive final game code to optimize drivers before release. When the finally got their hands into it, they improved drivers and requested change in game code to improve performance and stability on nv cards. Patch was deployed immediately and everyone could enjoy this amazing game.

Here, AMD finally figures how to optimize performance without full access to game code, suggests changes to game code, ends turned down because of sponsor logo.

It's not only anti-competitive but also strikes directly the consumers.

 

[Silverforce11]

It looks like exact opposite to what happened with GE title Tomb Raider (2013). Game had problems with nv hardware. NV didn't receive final game code to optimize drivers before release. When the finally got their hands into it, they improved drivers and requested change in game code to improve performance and stability on nv cards. Patch was deployed immediately and everyone could enjoy this amazing game.

Here, AMD finally figures how to optimize performance without full access to game code, suggests changes to game code, ends turned down because of sponsor logo.

It's not only anti-competitive but also strikes directly the consumers.

Yes but you cannot pin that on NV. If the dev turned down AMD and preferred to go with NV, its their choice.

I will vote with my wallet.

 

[Pottuvoi]

Tessellating polygons into/near sub-pixel size is not due to nvidia, but something that developers have done themselves.
They can either chose tessellation factor for the case or write view/surface dependent subdivision code.
IE.
http://docs.unity3d.com/Documentation/Components/SL-SurfaceShaderTessellation.html
Most likely they thought it was fast enough, so they didn't need to tweak it anymore.


If code is optimized for a certain hardware and uses methods that are good for certain hardware, it might not perform as well on another hardware architecture.
This doesn't mean that there is ill intentions behind it.

What nvidia has shown about GameWorks is fine looking work and I do hope it's 'fast enough' on all hardware so we as gamers can enjoy it.
If developers do not want to use provided libraries, I do hope them to get nice ideas from the work that has went into them.

I wonder if people say that Intel is mean, as they introduced PixelSync a hardware feature that has been begged by developers for years.
I just hope that future architectures from AMD/Nvidia will have something similar in functionality.

 

[Keysplayr]

Mantle would NOT exist without AMD securing next gen console wins a long time ago. Feel free to argue otherwise though.



As soon as I hack into NV's uber secret books where they keep all the bank accounts of various developers, I will be sure to let you know. Until then, I'm gonna keep on thinking they have been bribing developers on their NV logo program for years. It could be cash, girls, sports cars, entire studio full of NV hardware or several highly paid technical staff on site... heck, it could even be private joy rides with JHH's fabulous super cars!

We aren't gonna get definitely proof: http://www.kitguru.net/components/g...2-being-re-designed-for-gtx580-expect-delays/
But where's there smoke...

Thank you Silverforce11.

 

[frozentundra123456]

I think the key is how these specific features work. If they can be disabled on AMD cards, or simply dont run on them, I see no problem. If they are forced to run and slow down AMD cards, then that seems unfair. For instance, I am running an AMD card now. I cant run physX, but I dont feel that slows down my performance. I bought AMD because I thought it gave the best performance for the price. If physX were that important to me, I would have paid the extra to go nVidia.

However, I also dont accept that mantle will have no effect on Dx. Despite how many claims are made about how easy it is to implement, there are only a finite amount of resources available to optimize a game, and resources diverted to mantle will unavoidably result in less ideal versions of Dx.

To be blunt, both nVidia and AMD are trying to make games run better on their hardware. I just dont accept the apparent viewpoint of some on these forums that AMD is some knight in shining white armor trying to look out for gamers while MS/Intel/nVidia is some evil empire. They are all companies out to get a competitive edge on their competition and make money.

 

[tranger2d4]

Mantle is clearly backing Nvidia (JHH) into a corner.

In the Tom's Hardware Ask Me Anything Q&A, here, held shortly after APU13, the AMD rep said developers contacting AMD about Mantle was substantial and accelerating.

I have seen no indication from the existing Mantle developer's presentations and Q&A sessions to indicate something other than substantial performance increases from Mantle.

If BF4 Mantle performance increase is substantial (probable), and there's ongoing news of developers climbing on board the Mantle wagon (probable), what are Nvidia's options?

Nvidia (JHH) backed into a corner looking at a fairly sudden and serious erosion of a key cash flow market if and until Mantle is made available to it - it would be naïve to think JHH isn't working furiously behind the scenes to delay or derail Mantle in any way he can. GameWorks could be useful in that endeavor.

I'm curious to see what, if anything, JHH can pull out of his black hat of tricks to actually derail Mantle.

 

[tranger2d4]

Yes but you cannot pin that on NV. If the dev turned down AMD and preferred to go with NV, its their choice.

Impossible to know what went on behind closed doors.