[Extremetech] Nvidia’s GameWorks program usurps power from developers, end-users, AMD

[bystander36]

AMD have already said that Mantle could be supported on non-AMD GPUs, so long as they meet the minimum feature set. I hope that Mantle is launching as AMD only while they get it ironed out, and that they will allow NVidia and Intel to implement Mantle drivers in the future.

They also said it is proprietary with no plans to allow Nvidia to use it. I don't know what to believe, but I do believe if they do allow Nvidia to use it, it wouldn't be any better than this GameWorks program. The structure of it is designed to harness AMD's GCN architecture.

 

[sontin]

AFAIK only the dice guy said that he wants support from more than one vendor.

AMD never said anything in this direction. And without a proper specification and documentation nVidia and Intel cant even start to write their own driver...

 

[SiliconWars]

Surely the differences are obvious?

AMD goes and writes an entire API designed purely to give better performance. Nvidia uses the existing industry standard API and warps it in a way to prevent AMD from ever optimizing games using their libraries.

This cannot logically be defended this while simultaneously slamming Mantle, but I'm sure that won't stop a whole lot of people from trying.

 

[bystander36]

I find both features distasteful. I would have rather seen something both companies could equally use. But this is what we have to deal with. Hopefully things stabilize, but I expect a bumpy ride for the next couple years.

 

[bystander36]

Surely the differences are obvious?

AMD goes and writes an entire API designed purely to give better performance. Nvidia uses the existing industry standard API and warps it in a way to prevent AMD from ever optimizing games using their libraries.

This cannot logically be defended this while simultaneously slamming Mantle, but I'm sure that won't stop a whole lot of people from trying.

Now that is spin. Nvidia optimized the drivers for performance as well, but to prevent anyone from looking in to see what they did, AMD doesn't gain those advantages.

The truth is somewhere in between, obviously.

 

[Gloomy]

I think it's a little sleazy, but it's disingenuous to imply that AMD can't optimize games. I mean cripes, they have the tessellation slider right there in the driver panel. Just turn it down.

 

[AnandThenMan]

This is typical of Nvidia and does not surprise me in the slightest.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Surely the differences are obvious?

AMD goes and writes an entire API designed purely to give better performance. Nvidia uses the existing industry standard API and warps it in a way to prevent AMD from ever optimizing games using their libraries.

This cannot logically be defended this while simultaneously slamming Mantle, but I'm sure that won't stop a whole lot of people from trying.

What a pile of BS. Mantle is an attempt by AMD to control the API, nothing else.

 

[SiliconWars]

I think it's a little sleazy, but it's disingenuous to imply that AMD can't optimize games. I mean cripes, they have the tessellation slider right there in the driver panel. Just turn it down.

This isn't about user experience it's about benchmarking. Nvidia already spent time and money "convincing" the tech press to disallow AMD's tessellation slider.

 

[SiliconWars]

What a pile of BS. Mantle is an attempt by AMD to control the API, nothing else.

Yes their own API (which devs have complete access to unlike with Nvidia's libraries). Nvidia is attempting to control the industry standard API that you have been banging on about for the past 3 months.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Yes their own API. Nvidia is attempting to control the industry standard API that you have been banging on about for the past 3 months.

No they are not. Its free to use closed libraries. So dont try and spin it into some anti nVidia sensationalism.

 

[sontin]

This isn't about user experience it's about benchmarking. Nvidia already spent time and money "convincing" the tech press to disallow AMD's tessellation slider.

Using the Tessellation slide violates the DX11 specification.
I hope any reviewer knows this.

Yes their own API (which devs have complete access to unlike with Nvidia's libraries). Nvidia is attempting to control the industry standard API that you have been banging on about for the past 3 months.

You have no clue what you're talking about. Property of the code has nothing to do with an "industry standard API".

 

[bystander36]

Using the Tessellation slide violates the DX11 specification.
I hope any reviewer knows this.

Even if it is, I think the slider is a good feature. It shouldn't be used in benchmarking, but I don't see how it is a bad thing for a user to gain control of their hardware.

 

[SiliconWars]

No they are not. Its free to use closed libraries. So dont try and spin it into some anti nVidia sensationalism.

How can it be anything else? By using Nvidia's libraries the game cannot be optimized on AMD hardware, ever. On the industry standard API that you all slammed Mantle for....being better than?

Nowhere is AMD preventing Nvidia from optimizing any game. Until there are Mantle-only games that will be the case.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

The thread has devolved into two groups of people with negligible proof of anything saying that the other side is wrong because their negligible proof is way better. I can remember when the thread was about enthusiastic discussion about what mantle could mean for the industry. I will never understand the negativity that is being displayed in this thread. If mantle forces Microsoft to get DX fixed it benefits us all. Even if you want amd to fail for whatever reason at least acknowledge that fact and then stop posting your trash in this thread.

 

[ShintaiDK]

How can it be anything else? By using Nvidia's libraries the game cannot be optimized on AMD hardware, ever. On the industry standard API that you all slammed Mantle for....being better than?

Nowhere is AMD preventing Nvidia from optimizing any game. Until there are Mantle-only games that will be the case.

They sure delayed it, as we saw with BF4.

Dont try and glorify AMD, they are just as bad.

AMD got its own closed libraries too. Works fine optimizing for both.

 

[Carfax83]

And on top of that we have a clear situation where once again, Ubisoft is not allowing AMD to optimize Nvidia's ridiculous levels of over-tessellation.

It's not Ubisoft, it's Warner Bros Montreal..

Be sure that this level of tessellation is slowing down Nvidia cards for no IQ benefit - it just happens to slow down the AMD cards more for the same no IQ benefit.

What do you mean no IQ benefit? The snow in Batman Arkham Origins is the best implementation to be found in any game. It's fully deformable and varies in depth and geometry. Shadows can also be cast against it.

The same with the cape. It actually has real geometric detail that can interact with the game's shadow and lighting system.

 

[sontin]

AMD got its own closed libraries too. Works fine optimizing for both.

And sometimes they broke a whole game for the other team. :hmm:

 

[SiliconWars]

If that is the case what is wrong with allowing AMD's optimizations?

AMD attempted to provide Warner Bros. Montreal with code to improve Arkham Origins performance in tessellation, as well as to fix certain multi-GPU problems with the game. The studio turned down both.

 

[sontin]

It's WB case. If they don't care for AMD's opinion it's their call.
In the end they want to sell as many copies as possible.

 

[Grooveriding]

Why would this be any surprise ? The Batman games might as well be labelled as co-developed by nvidia with the heavy involvement they've always had with them.

 

[DiogoDX]

Nvidia alredy blocking AMD optimizations in DirectX made me think about SteamOS OGL games. Nvidia have more control over OGL than DX so the situation will be even worse in Nvidia titles.

 

[Gloomy]

And sometimes they broke a whole game for the other team. :hmm:

Huh?

 

[96Firebird]

The thread has devolved into two groups of people with negligible proof of anything saying that the other side is wrong because their negligible proof is way better. I can remember when the thread was about enthusiastic discussion about what mantle could mean for the industry. I will never understand the negativity that is being displayed in this thread. If mantle forces Microsoft to get DX fixed it benefits us all. Even if you want amd to fail for whatever reason at least acknowledge that fact and then stop posting your trash in this thread.

...

I think you've wandered into the wrong thread.

 

[NTMBK]

By the way, for people complaining about AMD's Mantle; did nobody notice that this new initiative also promotes "CUDA development tools"? As in, NVidia's proprietary, closed platform, which is fragmenting the market and slowing GPGPU adoption? Which is still entirely closed after 6 years of releases? Seems odd to be damning Mantle for the same reasons before it has even launched yet.