Europeans Like Bush Even Less Than Before

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Shad0hawK

Banned
May 26, 2003
1,456
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who cares what the europeans think? france for example needs to do something about that double digit unemployment rate, and try to keep thier old people from dying from heat than bitching about bush...

to bad the money they scammed from the oilr for food program did not help them out any...
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
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Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
who cares what the europeans think? france for example needs to do something about that double digit unemployment rate, and try to keep thier old people from dying from heat than bitching about bush...

to bad the money they scammed from the oilr for food program did not help them out any...

You really are bucking for that Neocon Xenophobe of the Year award, aren't you?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
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www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
who cares what the europeans think? france for example needs to do something about that double digit unemployment rate, and try to keep thier old people from dying from heat than bitching about bush...

to bad the money they scammed from the oilr for food program did not help them out any...

You really are bucking for that Neocon Xenophobe of the Year award, aren't you?

Whatever you say Mr. Chairman.
You never did answer me when I asked what kind of perks came with a BAF membership.;)

CkG
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
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Here is a novel approach to this.

Who cares? Since when do Americans give a rats ass what Euros have to say about our president?
I bet you 99% of America cant even name more than 1 European leader. You know why? Because we dont care! Europe had its hayday about 300 years ago and when our ancestors left we stopped caring.

So I suggest the Europeans stop worrying about what we in America do and start looking in their backyard. I am sure there is plenty of scandal and underhanded deals going on to occupy their time.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
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Nope, Europe is in no way, shape or form connect to anything the United States does. Our actions do not affect them at all.

:roll:
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
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Nope, Europe is in no way, shape or form connect to anything the United States does. Our actions do not affect them at all.

I think you need to stop caring. What exactly does Bush control over in Europe that would warrant such attention?
 

spaceman

Lifer
Dec 4, 2000
17,616
183
106
Originally posted by: Genx87
Nope, Europe is in no way, shape or form connect to anything the United States does. Our actions do not affect them at all.

I think you need to stop caring. What exactly does Bush control over in Europe that would warrant such attention?


pay no attention to conjur.he is more or less the p&n resident troll.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Nope, Europe is in no way, shape or form connect to anything the United States does. Our actions do not affect them at all.

I think you need to stop caring. What exactly does Bush control over in Europe that would warrant such attention?

Because our actions, esp. in the Middle East, that drag other European countries into the mix certainly affects them.

Our efforts to even trade with China has been a failure, thanks to Bush, and now the EU is making its own attempts. Working together may be more beneficial.

Bush's unjustified actions in Iraq have left us without any true allies from Europe. He squandered immensse world support post-9/11 into immense world hatred and disrespect. Are we going to have help in securing Iraq? No. We're on our own and it's costing us dearly.
 

spaceman

Lifer
Dec 4, 2000
17,616
183
106
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Genx87
Nope, Europe is in no way, shape or form connect to anything the United States does. Our actions do not affect them at all.

I think you need to stop caring. What exactly does Bush control over in Europe that would warrant such attention?

Because our actions, esp. in the Middle East, that drag other European countries into the mix certainly affects them.

Our efforts to even trade with China has been a failure, thanks to Bush, and now the EU is making its own attempts. Working together may be more beneficial.

Bush's unjustified actions in Iraq have left us without any true allies from Europe. He squandered immensse world support post-9/11 into immense world hatred and disrespect. Are we going to have help in securing Iraq? No. We're on our own and it's costing us dearly.



"immense" support wouldnt waiver so quickly. it was token from the get go.
the sooner we come to the realization that these people will hold us in contempt and hate no matter what we do..the quicker an ultimate conclusion can be brought about.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Because our actions, esp. in the Middle East, that drag other European countries into the mix certainly affects them.

Do you really believe the US involvement in the ME is what is causing the problems in Europe? France, France for crying out loud, the nation who stood upto the big bad Americans has foiled so many terrorists attempts in recent months it would make your head spin. So are these attacks that are being planned in France a thank you gesture from the Terrorists to the French for their support pre-war?

Our efforts to even trade with China has been a failure, thanks to Bush, and now the EU is making its own attempts. Working together may be more beneficial.

I am not terribly familiar with this situation so maybe you can point me to some non-biased links?

Bush's unjustified actions in Iraq have left us without any true allies from Europe. He squandered immensse world support post-9/11 into immense world hatred and disrespect. Are we going to have help in securing Iraq? No. We're on our own and it's costing us dearly.

There is nothing unjustified that we did in Iraq. Iraq was in many violations of UN resolutions. Especially ones that called for the use of force. On top of that it was in our own best interest given the intelligence we had to take out Saddam before his WMD fell into the hands of people who ram planes into sky scrapers. We dont need the worlds permission to fight a war. We asked for help and nobody jumped. If you arent willing to participate then dont complain we went it without you.

As for the sympathy it was rather short lived. What good is the worlds support if they arent willing to do anything about it? All it ended up being was lip service and lip service doesnt go far. As for the hatred and disrspect this is a direct result of half truths being twisted in a way that parties who dont like the US can paint it in a way most people wont like.

The political games people play will hurt the West in the end IMO. Europeans need to realize they have a negative birth rate and it is very possible withint 50 years to have Islamic dictatorships erected in Europe. And I can almost guarantee you they wont afford euros the freedoms they have now. These suicide bombings in Madrid and across Europe are only the beginning stages. I think it is time to get past the political game and realize this is probably going to be WWIII minus the defined war zones.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Because our actions, esp. in the Middle East, that drag other European countries into the mix certainly affects them.

Do you really believe the US involvement in the ME is what is causing the problems in Europe? France, France for crying out loud, the nation who stood upto the big bad Americans has foiled so many terrorists attempts in recent months it would make your head spin. So are these attacks that are being planned in France a thank you gesture from the Terrorists to the French for their support pre-war?
I wasn't referring to terrorist attacks. Although, the Madrid bombing could be related to our presence in Iraq. France has long been a target of terror attacks. Our actions affect world economies, too.

Our efforts to even trade with China has been a failure, thanks to Bush, and now the EU is making its own attempts. Working together may be more beneficial.

I am not terribly familiar with this situation so maybe you can point me to some non-biased links?
Just look at Bush's shunning of the ITC's recommendations, several times, for starters.

Bush's unjustified actions in Iraq have left us without any true allies from Europe. He squandered immensse world support post-9/11 into immense world hatred and disrespect. Are we going to have help in securing Iraq? No. We're on our own and it's costing us dearly.

There is nothing unjustified that we did in Iraq. Iraq was in many violations of UN resolutions. Especially ones that called for the use of force. On top of that it was in our own best interest given the intelligence we had to take out Saddam before his WMD fell into the hands of people who ram planes into sky scrapers. We dont need the worlds permission to fight a war. We asked for help and nobody jumped. If you arent willing to participate then dont complain we went it without you.
Oh, what U.N. resolution was it that called for use of force? The resolution in violation is claimed to be 1441 which only stated:
the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations;
I guess it's ok for neocons to use nuance in this case, in order to distort "serious consequences" into "use of force."

As for the sympathy it was rather short lived. What good is the worlds support if they arent willing to do anything about it? All it ended up being was lip service and lip service doesnt go far. As for the hatred and disrspect this is a direct result of half truths being twisted in a way that parties who dont like the US can paint it in a way most people wont like.
And why was it short-lived? Because Bush diverted us into a showdown with Iraq less than one year after 9/11. We had worldwide support in 1991, worldwide support in 2001/early 2002, and, in 2003, only token support and other countries joining in after being bribed.

The political games people play will hurt the West in the end IMO. Europeans need to realize they have a negative birth rate and it is very possible withint 50 years to have Islamic dictatorships erected in Europe. And I can almost guarantee you they wont afford euros the freedoms they have now. These suicide bombings in Madrid and across Europe are only the beginning stages. I think it is time to get past the political game and realize this is probably going to be WWIII minus the defined war zones.
Pure conjecture but a possibility. Another reason why working with Arab countries to foster democracy and opportunities from within is the course of action we should now take. Bombs and bullets will not bring peace to the Middle East.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I wasn't referring to terrorist attacks. Although, the Madrid bombing could be related to our presence in Iraq. France has long been a target of terror attacks. Our actions affect world economies, too.

Our concern should not be about keeping other countries economies running. Our first and foremost concern is keeping ours running and keeping ourselves safe.

Just look at Bush's shunning of the ITC's recommendations, several times, for starters.

Why dont you just save us the time and link to what you dont like?

Oh, what U.N. resolution was it that called for use of force? The resolution in violation is claimed to be 1441 which only stated:

1441 is linked to resolutions 687 and 678. 687 is the cease fire between Kuwait and Iraq. In this resolution Iraq was required to cooperate with the UN inspection teams. They failed to this and thus in the cease fire it broken. The last time I checked when cease fires are broke that means hostilities will erupt shortly.

678 was the resolution authorizing the use of force against Iraq in the first gulf war and to maintain the security of the region. All security members signed this and recognized all three resolutions. A final resolution calling for the use of force is not needed but would have been a nice gesture to the world community. On top of that if needed, the US didnt even need any of those resolutions if we really felt the need to defend ourselves.

And why was it short-lived? Because Bush diverted us into a showdown with Iraq less than one year after 9/11. We had worldwide support in 1991, worldwide support in 2001/early 2002, and, in 2003, only token support and other countries joining in after being bribed.

I dont think there was anything behind the lip service. I am sure they felt bad about it but I dont think they really were going to do much except say they felt bad. At that point we dont care and dont need the lip service.

I guess it's ok for neocons to use nuance in this case, in order to distort "serious consequences" into "use of force."

Why is it everytime somebody brings up an opposing viewpoint liberals use the term "neocon"? Is it supposed to be deragatory? BTW is there anything more serious than the use of force?

Pure conjecture but a possibility. Another reason why working with Arab countries to foster democracy and opportunities from within is the course of action we should now take. Bombs and bullets will not bring peace to the Middle East.

I agree that the sole use of bullets and bombs will not foster democracy. What we are doing in Iraq can foster a democracy through the use of force on the people who blow up buildings and the use of our money to rebuild the country into something resembling a western nation. Nobody said it was going to be easy. I remember Bush clearly saying it would be a 3-5 year occupation. It took us 4 years to get elections going in Germany post WWII. And how many years did it take us to get elections in the United States after our war of independence?

Again it is boiling down to a political game with half-truths and lies being turned into the almighty word.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
I wasn't referring to terrorist attacks. Although, the Madrid bombing could be related to our presence in Iraq. France has long been a target of terror attacks. Our actions affect world economies, too.
Our concern should not be about keeping other countries economies running. Our first and foremost concern is keeping ours running and keeping ourselves safe.
Agreed but they are intertwined. Europe does a lot of trade with us and vice versa. To not be respective of other countries will only isolate ourselves and that is not good.

Just look at Bush's shunning of the ITC's recommendations, several times, for starters.
Why dont you just save us the time and link to what you dont like?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7517-2004Mar19.html
http://www.tdctrade.com/alert/us0309b.htm
http://www.immnet.com/articles?article=2116

Oh, what U.N. resolution was it that called for use of force? The resolution in violation is claimed to be 1441 which only stated:
1441 is linked to resolutions 687 and 678. 687 is the cease fire between Kuwait and Iraq. In this resolution Iraq was required to cooperate with the UN inspection teams. They failed to this un thus in theory the cease fire it broken. The last time I checked when cease fires are broke that means hostilities will erupt shortly.

678 was the resolution authorizing the use of force against Iraq in the first gulf war and to maintain the security of the region. All security members signed this and recognized all three resolutions. A final resolution calling for the use of force is not needed but would have been a nice gesture to the world community. On top of that is needed the US didnt even need any of those resolutions if we really felt the need to defend ourselves.
Interesting. I was unaware that 678 authorized use of force beyond removing Saddam from Kuwait. 678 only demanded that Iraq comply witih 660. 660 only demanded Iraq pull out of Kuwait. If 687/678/660 authorized force of any kind, even after Iraq pulled out of Kuwait, then why did Bush 41 (and Powell) stop the attack and not continue on to Baghdad?

And why was it short-lived? Because Bush diverted us into a showdown with Iraq less than one year after 9/11. We had worldwide support in 1991, worldwide support in 2001/early 2002, and, in 2003, only token support and other countries joining in after being bribed.
I dont think there was anything behind the lip service. I am sure they felt bad about it but I dont think they really were going to do much except say they felt bad. At that point we dont care and dont need the lip service.
We had support in the war on terror in Afghanistan. We should have taken advantage of that instead of waiting 5 months after the first cruise missile strike to place ground forces in Afghanistan. Bush wanted to go it alone and it cost us the ability to capture bin Laden and his key aides.

I guess it's ok for neocons to use nuance in this case, in order to distort "serious consequences" into "use of force."
Why is it everytime somebody brings up an opposing viewpoint liberals use the term "neocon"? Is it supposed to be deragatory? BTW is there anything more serious than the use of force?
Why is it everytime somebody brings up an opposing viewpoint, conservatives use the term "liberal"?

To answer your question, it is neocons that support Bush's war on Iraq. True conservatives do not. And, use of force is certainly the most serious consequence but use of force is not specifically stated in 1441. You're trying to read more into than is really there.

Pure conjecture but a possibility. Another reason why working with Arab countries to foster democracy and opportunities from within is the course of action we should now take. Bombs and bullets will not bring peace to the Middle East.
I agree that the sole use of bullets and bombs will not foster democracy. What we are doing in Iraq can foster a democracy through the use of force on the people who blow up buildings and the use of our money to rebuild the country into something resembling a western nation. Nobody said it was going to be easy. I remember Bush clearly saying it would be a 3-5 year occupation. It took us 4 years to get elections going in Germany post WWII. And how many years did it take us to get elections in the United States after our war of independence?

Again it is boiling down to a political game with half-truths and lies being turned into the almighty word.
That is such an ignorant, hawkish, war-mongering line of thinking and it's that line of thinking that got us into this mess.

Here we are, 7 weeks from June 30 and even Brahimi doesn't know who will be the leader of Iraq. The Bush administration doesn't want the interim Iraqi government to even be able to enact any laws! It will be a purely puppet government and will not be accepted, much less respected, by the Iraqi populace nor other Arab countries.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Agreed but they are intertwined. Europe does a lot of trade with us and vice versa. To not be respective of other countries will only isolate ourselves and that is not good.

There is a difference between being respective and doing what you need to do.

Interesting. I was unaware that 678 authorized use of force beyond removing Saddam from Kuwait. 678 only demanded that Iraq comply witih 660. 660 only demanded Iraq pull out of Kuwait. If 687/678/660 authorized force of any kind, even after Iraq pulled out of Kuwait, then why did Bush 41 (and Powell) stop the attack and not continue on to Baghdad?

If you read 678 it reads as restoring previous borders of Kuwait and ensuring security in the region.
687 is a cease fire agreement Iraq signed. If you break the cease fire the consequences are quite apparent. War will break out.

As for Bush not continuing I think it was quite clear if he did that the Arab coalition would fall apart. He played the political game.

We had support in the war on terror in Afghanistan. We should have taken advantage of that instead of waiting 5 months after the first cruise missile strike to place ground forces in Afghanistan. Bush wanted to go it alone and it cost us the ability to capture bin Laden and his key aides.

You cant exactly move large amountf of forces overnight. Sure you can put teams on the ground in a fast manner. But getting everything in place takes time. Remember the area is pretty much exactly on the other side of the Earth.

Why is it everytime somebody brings up an opposing viewpoint, conservatives use the term "liberal"?

Fair question. The reason I use the term is because 99% of the time the viewpoint is based of half-truths or personal bias. And for the most part Liberals lately tend to just cry and whine about anything and everything Bush.

To answer your question, it is neocons that support Bush's war on Iraq. True conservatives do not. And, use of force is certainly the most serious consequence but use of force is not specifically stated in 1441. You're trying to read more into than is really there.

I dont know where all of a sudden liberals are the authority on who and who doesnt support the war in Iraq. Especially to the point where they can label people who support the war as neocons and the ones who dont true conservatives.

I think it is painfully clear that Iraq was in violation of two UN resolutions that are directly related to the use of force. 687 which is a cease fire agreement and 678 which has them as a serious security threat.

There is nothing to read into it. I suggest taking a look for yourself.

That is such an ignorant, hawkish, war-mongering line of thinking and it's that line of thinking that got us into this mess.

What about that is ignorant? Do you think democracy was going to foster itself under Saddam? How about the rest of the religious dictatorships in the ME? Iraq is a very good place to foster democracy through the two pronged approach.

Here we are, 7 weeks from June 30 and even Brahimi doesn't know who will be the leader of Iraq. The Bush administration doesn't want the interim Iraqi government to even be able to enact any laws! It will be a purely puppet government and will not be accepted, much less respected, by the Iraqi populace nor other Arab countries.

Now this is an ignorant and conspiracy laden view. I think the Bush administration does want things to get going. They have nothing to gain by a prolonged stay in Iraq. But first and foremost they need to secure the country to the point where it can sustain itself. This means using the bullets and bombs on the insurgents. But at the same time using the money to build communication towers, water plants, electricity plants, schools, sewers, and create an atmosphere where the common Iraqi wants to keep the terrorist and fundamentals out of power.

I think June 30th is a pipedream but eventually if we stay the course there will be elections and hopefully a seperation of church and state.
 

Shad0hawK

Banned
May 26, 2003
1,456
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
who cares what the europeans think? france for example needs to do something about that double digit unemployment rate, and try to keep thier old people from dying from heat than bitching about bush...

to bad the money they scammed from the oilr for food program did not help them out any...

You really are bucking for that Neocon Xenophobe of the Year award, aren't you?


no, just giving libs excuses to call people who disagree with them names so as to bolster their all important self esteem and image obsession.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
If you read 678 it reads as restoring previous borders of Kuwait and ensuring security in the region.
687 is a cease fire agreement Iraq signed. If you break the cease fire the consequences are quite apparent. War will break out.

As for Bush not continuing I think it was quite clear if he did that the Arab coalition would fall apart. He played the political game.
33. Declares that, upon official notification by Iraq to the Secretary-General and to the Security Council of its acceptance of the provisions above, a formal cease-fire is effective between Iraq and Kuwait and the Member States cooperating with Kuwait in accordance with resolution 678 (1990); [/b]

The cease-fire was in accordance with 678 (Iraq to stay out of Kuwait)

We had support in the war on terror in Afghanistan. We should have taken advantage of that instead of waiting 5 months after the first cruise missile strike to place ground forces in Afghanistan. Bush wanted to go it alone and it cost us the ability to capture bin Laden and his key aides.

You cant exactly move large amountf of forces overnight. Sure you can put teams on the ground in a fast manner. But getting everything in place takes time. Remember the area is pretty much exactly on the other side of the Earth.
Yes, I understand logistics are difficult but no attempt was made for five months. Then, the troops started going in and it still amounted to less than a full division. Bush relied too much upon the Northern Alliance who had their own agenda above and beyond whatever was requested of them by the U.S.

Why is it everytime somebody brings up an opposing viewpoint, conservatives use the term "liberal"?
Fair question. The reason I use the term is because 99% of the time the viewpoint is based of half-truths or personal bias. And for the most part Liberals lately tend to just cry and whine about anything and everything Bush.
That's just rhetoric from you and is based on nothing but your disdain for "liberals".

To answer your question, it is neocons that support Bush's war on Iraq. True conservatives do not. And, use of force is certainly the most serious consequence but use of force is not specifically stated in 1441. You're trying to read more into than is really there.
I dont know where all of a sudden liberals are the authority on who and who doesnt support the war in Iraq. Especially to the point where they can label people who support the war as neocons and the ones who dont true conservatives.
Because everything I've read shows that true conservatives are not in support of nation-building, going to war on unjust causes, being fiscally irresponsible in the process, being ill-prepared for any war, not having an exit strategy, etc. I could go on and on.

I think it is painfully clear that Iraq was in violation of two UN resolutions that are directly related to the use of force. 687 which is a cease fire agreement and 678 which has them as a serious security threat.

There is nothing to read into it. I suggest taking a look for yourself.
Oh, I have. I was in support of the war last year (search the archived messages.) I know those resolutions well and know how much they were distorted to support Bush's view. The crux of the administration's claim being the existence of actual WMDs (not programs, not plans, but rather actual weapons.)

Since that time I've learned of the false information supplied by Chalabi and the INC and the use of false data by the administration (such as the uranium from Niger, which never occurred.)

That is such an ignorant, hawkish, war-mongering line of thinking and it's that line of thinking that got us into this mess.

What about that is ignorant? Do you think democracy was going to foster itself under Saddam? How about the rest of the religious dictatorships in the ME? Iraq is a very good place to foster democracy through the two pronged approach.
There were ways to have Saddam taken down w/o invading the country and killing thousands and thousands of innocent civilians.

Here we are, 7 weeks from June 30 and even Brahimi doesn't know who will be the leader of Iraq. The Bush administration doesn't want the interim Iraqi government to even be able to enact any laws! It will be a purely puppet government and will not be accepted, much less respected, by the Iraqi populace nor other Arab countries.

Now this is an ignorant and conspiracy laden view. I think the Bush administration does want things to get going. They have nothing to gain by a prolonged stay in Iraq. But first and foremost they need to secure the country to the point where it can sustain itself. This means using the bullets and bombs on the insurgents. But at the same time using the money to build communication towers, water plants, electricity plants, schools, sewers, and create an atmosphere where the common Iraqi wants to keep the terrorist and fundamentals out of power.

I think June 30th is a pipedream but eventually if we stay the course there will be elections and hopefully a seperation of church and state.
Conspiracy-laden??

http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-vpirq263773354apr26,0,2391450.story?coll=ny-editorials-headlines
Even before Iraq acquires a new interim government, a dispute is brewing over the degree of its sovereignty that could derail the planned turnover of power from the U.S.-led occupation authority. The issue has the potential of creating yet another damaging rift between the Bush administration and the United Nations - and among Iraqi leaders - and must be resolved well before the June 30 turnover date.

The Bush administration argues that the caretaker government should abide by strict limits on its control of armed forces and should not be able to create new laws that might clash with international norms and occupation rules; rather, lawmaking should wait until a fully representative government is elected next January and a constitution adopted.

There is logic to this position, but it paints a picture of the United States as an overbearing power intent on maintaining its status as an occupying force.

The interim government will be a mere puppet government with no powers and no sovereignty.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
33. Declares that, upon official notification by Iraq to the Secretary-General and to the Security Council of its acceptance of the provisions above, a formal cease-fire is effective between Iraq and Kuwait and the Member States cooperating with Kuwait in accordance with resolution 678 (1990);

The cease-fire was in accordance with 678 (Iraq to stay out of Kuwait)

You are only reading what you want to read and you are not looking at it from the right point of view of 1441 which encompasses it all. On top of that Iraq was in violation of 687 which broke the entire agreement.

Yes, I understand logistics are difficult but no attempt was made for five months. Then, the troops started going in and it still amounted to less than a full division. Bush relied too much upon the Northern Alliance who had their own agenda above and beyond whatever was requested of them by the U.S.

Since I am not prevy to high level cabinet meetings I can not give you a truthful answer on exactly the reason for this. But relying on an internal force isnt such a bad idea. They will be one less force you will have to fight when the deed is done.

Because everything I've read shows that true conservatives are not in support of nation-building, going to war on unjust causes, being fiscally irresponsible in the process, being ill-prepared for any war, not having an exit strategy, etc. I could go on and on.

Heh well I think maybe you should read a bit more. Though I bet the ultra conservative and ultra liberal are probably one in the same. They would prefer isolationism to the fullest extent. Of course the last time the United States did that two World Wars broke out in a 30 year span.

Conspiracy-laden??

That article proves nothing of Bush wanting to put a puppet govt in Iraq. That article deals strictly with the interim govt, which in case you forgot means a govt that is a temporary govt until elections can be done and the govt infrastructure created.

This is striaght from your article "There is logic to this position"

It doesnt make sense for a temporary govt to be making laws while an occupation is still occuring. These people wont be elected by the people of Iraq but instead appointed to their positions by the United States to help with the transisiton of power. No grand conspiracy of a never ending occupation.

If you really believe that Bush is trying to prolong this can you give us a real reason why he would want to?

The interim government will be a mere puppet government with no powers and no sovereignty.

Here is the definition of interim

Def

BTW I bet you 50 bucks if the interim govt was allowed to make laws liberals around the world would say the US is forcing their will through the puppet govt.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Genx87
Oh, what U.N. resolution was it that called for use of force? The resolution in violation is claimed to be 1441 which only stated:

1441 is linked to resolutions 687 and 678. 687 is the cease fire between Kuwait and Iraq. In this resolution Iraq was required to cooperate with the UN inspection teams. They failed to this and thus in the cease fire it broken. The last time I checked when cease fires are broke that means hostilities will erupt shortly.

678 was the resolution authorizing the use of force against Iraq in the first gulf war and to maintain the security of the region. All security members signed this and recognized all three resolutions. A final resolution calling for the use of force is not needed but would have been a nice gesture to the world community. On top of that if needed, the US didnt even need any of those resolutions if we really felt the need to defend ourselves.

:D Another one who "gets it" :D

Kudos to you to see through the BS:) I've said that from the start. It doesn't get far here because of the Saddam apologists and leftists. Cease fire means cease fire - not "end". Saddam didn't uphold his end of the AGREEMENT - hence - game on. He should have been given 2 chances after the original agreement. One "oops - I forgot about that missile"(or whatever piece of the agreement he broke) and then the second time - the bombs should have been falling. The UN's credibility in resolutions was seriously damaged by continuing to allow Saddam to play his games. This War should have been fought years ago but we and the UN didn't have the resolve to actually back up our words/agreements. We, the UN, and the world let the people of Iraq down for years by allowing Saddam to thumb his nose at us all.

Again - kudos to you sir. You are one fine American Genx87 :D

CkG