Europeans claim wictory over Americans!!!

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SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: SuperTool
That was the NTSB conclusion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A...an_Airlines_Flight_587. Apparently you are not supposed to use the rudder to steer the plane.
The A300, which took off just minutes after a Boeing 747 on the same runway, flew into the larger jet's wake, an area of very turbulent air. The co-pilot, Sten Molin, attempted to keep the plane upright with the rudder, but pushed the rudder too far to one side and then overcorrected too far to the other. The strength of the air flowing against the moving rudder stressed the aircraft's tail fin and eventually snapped it off entirely, causing the aircraft to lose control and crash. According to the NTSB, the crash would not have occurred but for the co-pilot's use of the rudder.
Basically, when you steer a plane with the tail rudder, the directed air flow creates a stress on the tail. The wake of the other plane increased that force by some amount. The tail mounting assembly couldn't handle the combined stress, since the part it was bolted into lost structural integrity during the bolting process. You're both right. :p

So you think it's a problem with the Airbus plane, and you would have no problem being on a Boeing plane and having the pilot try the same maneuver?
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
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Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Umm, they have a long time to recoup the costs. 747 has been on the market for a very long time. 149 is just a downpayment of orders.

The 747 has been on the market for a long time, but it has also been sustained by a growth market which has maintained a steady demand...not to mention the contracts for sustainment of planes already fielded.

My point is that not only does Airbus have enough up front orders to make the program profitable, but the market potential for the A380 is so dismal that the program will never come out of the red.

This is what the A380 profit model looks like:

Phase 1 - Build world's largest commercial airplane
Phase 2 - ?
Phase 3 - Profits

It's not like it matters, the development was funded with EU tax dollars. Something that will finally be going before the WTO.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
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Do we need to be bitter just because socialist Europe has done something better than capitalist America? Is that really such a big threat to the US way of life?
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
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Originally posted by: SuperTool
Do we need to be bitter just because socialist Europe has done something better than capitalist America? Is that really such a big threat to the US way of life?

It took the entire continent to do that with plenty of government help. Congrats to them.
 

nCred

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2003
1,106
107
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Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Do we need to be bitter just because socialist Europe has done something better than capitalist America? Is that really such a big threat to the US way of life?

It took the entire continent to do that with plenty of government help. Congrats to them.

Exactly what do you mean with that? Airbus is a french, british, German, Spanish consortium so it´s not all of Europe, you make it sound like took all of Europe´s resources and work force to build this plane.. :confused:

What´s the big difference between Boeing and Airbus?
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
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Seriously, just because socialist "Old Europe" has outdone capitalist America, all the while enjoying universal healthcare and 35 hr work week, it doesn't mean we are intellectually inferior. We'll beat them one day.
 

nCred

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2003
1,106
107
106
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Seriously, just because socialist "Old Europe" has outdone capitalist America, all the while enjoying universal healthcare and 35 hr work week, it doesn't mean we are intellectually inferior. We'll beat them one day.

Hopefully the countries in Europe with 35 hr work week gets rid of it..
People make it sound like it´s some huge prestige project for all of Europe or something, I dont get it.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
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Originally posted by: SuperTool
Seriously, just because socialist "Old Europe" has outdone capitalist America, all the while enjoying universal healthcare and 35 hr work week, it doesn't mean we are intellectually inferior. We'll beat them one day.

We already have.

*edit*

Long ago.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: nCred
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Seriously, just because socialist "Old Europe" has outdone capitalist America, all the while enjoying universal healthcare and 35 hr work week, it doesn't mean we are intellectually inferior. We'll beat them one day.

Hopefully the countries in Europe with 35 hr work week gets rid of it..
People make it sound like it´s some huge prestige project for all of Europe or something, I dont get it.

Yeah hopefully those countries whose Airbus is outcompeting Boeing get rid of their 35 hr work week, because it's making them uncompetitive ;)
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
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7E7 is a good plane, and will do well for efficiency concerns...but for the long range side, the a380 will be stiff competition.
people will be able to travel in comfort, airline will save fuel costs per passenger.
both airlines are designed for intercontinental flight. The A380 has longer range than 747.

Again they are in different classes. The 7E7 has far less space...ie. for recreation/sleeping/passengers.
If you have routes that can take the ppl that 380 can take...it is a far better decision.

Also...airbus expects 250 planes to be made in 3 years...that's when the project will be paid off. (they are already over half that and have way more orders than anticipated)
747's have been around since 1970. To think that this project will not suceed...take off the blindfold.
This plane will not hurt airbus in the least. Even if it makes the break even point they are ahead of the game as the tech can be applied to other smaller models.

a380 is a huge sucess no matter what these nationalist boeing lovers are saying.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
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Nobody is going to answer this??
just because boeing is american...you dont have to blindly support it.
they are the company you as a conservative should hate.

gov't subsidies
layoffs
losing competitive edge
mooching off gov't contracts
gov't bribes

I see a lot of conservatives backing boeing here.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
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Originally posted by: Stunt
7E7 is a good plane, and will do well for efficiency concerns...but for the long range side, the a380 will be stiff competition.
people will be able to travel in comfort, airline will save fuel costs per passenger.
both airlines are designed for intercontinental flight. The A380 has longer range than 747.

Again they are in different classes. The 7E7 has far less space...ie. for recreation/sleeping/passengers.
If you have routes that can take the ppl that 380 can take...it is a far better decision.

Also...airbus expects 250 planes to be made in 3 years...that's when the project will be paid off. (they are already over half that and have way more orders than anticipated)
747's have been around since 1970. To think that this project will not suceed...take off the blindfold.
This plane will not hurt airbus in the least. Even if it makes the break even point they are ahead of the game as the tech can be applied to other smaller models.

a380 is a huge sucess no matter what these nationalist boeing lovers are saying.

yeah the a380 is a success. but you do seem to have a anti Boeing bias.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Well it is a combination of the wake turbulence from the 747 and the rudder. Either way that is not very good for a plane to fall apart from either and or the combination. That doesnt look good for Airbus.

Seriously, just because socialist "Old Europe" has outdone capitalist America, all the while enjoying universal healthcare and 35 hr work week, it doesn't mean we are intellectually inferior. We'll beat them one day.

Well dont stop there. With their region wide 9% unemployment rates(worse than our highschool diploma unemployment rate of 8.3%). Some people dont work at all and get universal healthcare.

Yeah hopefully those countries whose Airbus is outcompeting Boeing get rid of their 35 hr work week, because it's making them uncompetitive

You can surely see the gdp growth of the United States vs the EU to see who is more productive ;)





 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: SuperTool
So you think it's a problem with the Airbus plane, and you would have no problem being on a Boeing plane and having the pilot try the same maneuver?
I'd much rather be on a Boeing plane in that situation than an Airbus. According to the literature I've read, a Boeing plane wouldn't have crashed. The reason is simple: Airbus used a cheaper, less reliable manufacturing technique that is known to weaken the structure of the composite parts.
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Do we need to be bitter just because socialist Europe has done something better than capitalist America? Is that really such a big threat to the US way of life?
Better? Not necessarily, just different. Whoever turned this into some sort of pissing contest between Europe and America was really reaching.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Well it is a combination of the wake turbulence from the 747 and the rudder. Either way that is not very good for a plane to fall apart from either and or the combination. That doesnt look good for Airbus.

Seriously, just because socialist "Old Europe" has outdone capitalist America, all the while enjoying universal healthcare and 35 hr work week, it doesn't mean we are intellectually inferior. We'll beat them one day.

Well dont stop there. With their region wide 9% unemployment rates(worse than our highschool diploma unemployment rate of 8.3%). Some people dont work at all and get universal healthcare.

Yeah hopefully those countries whose Airbus is outcompeting Boeing get rid of their 35 hr work week, because it's making them uncompetitive

You can surely see the gdp growth of the United States vs the EU to see who is more productive ;)

If we are so productive, how come we are a nation in debt? How come our dollar is losing value to Euro faster than a Bimmer is depreciating :D ?




 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
If we are so productive, how come we are a nation in debt? How come our dollar is losing value to Euro faster than a Bimmer is depreciating

What does being in debt have to do with being productive?

btw did you know the EU ran a deficit last year larger than the United States? It came to about 650billion compared to our ~420-450 billion.

So you have the EU running larger deficits and higher unemployment? Lets not even get into the avg tax situation for somebody who actually works over there.

Simply put at the present rate of growth the US will pass the EU in terms of GDP in the next 10 years.

But none of this really has anything to do with the A380. Which is a remarkable plane in its own right. I look forward to seeing one actually fly.
 

nCred

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2003
1,106
107
106
Originally posted by: Genx87
If we are so productive, how come we are a nation in debt? How come our dollar is losing value to Euro faster than a Bimmer is depreciating

btw did you know the EU ran a deficit last year larger than the United States? It came to about 650billion compared to our ~420-450 billion.
Is that really true? Gemany´s deficit was 50 billion last year and it was Germany and France and Portugal that had had the highest deficits in % in EU, and since Germany is at least 1/5 th of the EU economy it doesnt seem correct..

That would be 6 % of EU´s GDP and it can´t be true unless the new east European countries had some crazy deficites.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Originally posted by: nCred
Originally posted by: Genx87
If we are so productive, how come we are a nation in debt? How come our dollar is losing value to Euro faster than a Bimmer is depreciating

btw did you know the EU ran a deficit last year larger than the United States? It came to about 650billion compared to our ~420-450 billion.
Is that really true? Gemany´s deficit was 50 billion last year and it was Germany and France and Portugal that had had the highest deficits in % in EU, and since Germany is at least 1/5 th of the EU economy it doesnt seem correct..

regardless, it doesnt effect productivity much.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
the major distinction between Boeing and Airbus...if Airbus makes a mistake, miscalculation or simply requires more funding to support a project...the European taxpayers pay...Airbus has an almost unlimited access to funds in the event that their projects go over budget...Boeing cannot afford to take such risks, and because of that, Airbus is able to make more high risk high reward investments.

Boeing on the other hand is a publicly traded company...if Boeing makes a mistake, its stock takes a hit, which hinders its access to funds to support projects that go over budget, or to invest in new technologies.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
the major distinction between Boeing and Airbus...if Airbus makes a mistake, miscalculation or simply requires more funding to support a project...the European taxpayers pay...Airbus has an almost unlimited access to funds in the event that their projects go over budget...Boeing cannot afford to take such risks, and because of that, Airbus is able to make more high risk high reward investments.

Boeing on the other hand is a publicly traded company...if Boeing makes a mistake, its stock takes a hit, which hinders its access to funds to support projects that go over budget, or to invest in new technologies.
airbus is publicly traded...
boeing has gov't subsidies, mooches off gov't contracts, gives gov't bribes.

most of boeing's money comes from defense....
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,226
5,801
126
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: SuperTool
So you think it's a problem with the Airbus plane, and you would have no problem being on a Boeing plane and having the pilot try the same maneuver?
I'd much rather be on a Boeing plane in that situation than an Airbus. According to the literature I've read, a Boeing plane wouldn't have crashed. The reason is simple: Airbus used a cheaper, less reliable manufacturing technique that is known to weaken the structure of the composite parts.
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Do we need to be bitter just because socialist Europe has done something better than capitalist America? Is that really such a big threat to the US way of life?
Better? Not necessarily, just different. Whoever turned this into some sort of pissing contest between Europe and America was really reaching.

See OP.