Europeans claim wictory over Americans!!!

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
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Airbus unveils its superjumbo, European leaders hail lead over US

Airbus unveiled the world's biggest passenger jet in a glitzy ceremony at which the leaders of France, Britain, Germany and Spain hailed Europe's victory over the United States as the new king of the commercial skies.

The huge A380 superjumbo, which can carry up to 840 people on its two full decks, supersedes the ageing 747 by US rival Boeing as the biggest civilian aircraft ever made.

When it is put into service early next year, it will become the flagship of many airline fleets and offer unprecedented amenities on long-haul services, including, in some cases, gyms, bedrooms and bars.

For the countries that backed the 10.7-billion-euro (14-billion-dollar) development cost, the plane -- hidden behind an immense black curtain until its unveiling -- stood as a prominent symbol of European cooperation.

"Good old Europe has made this possible," German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder told a packed hall in Airbus's headquarters in Toulouse, southwest France.

That was a barely-veiled barb recalling the US dismissal of France, Germany and other EU states in 2003 as "Old Europe" because of their opposition to the war on Iraq.

Airbus chief Noel Forgeard made similar hints in his presentation of the A380 during a colourful spectacle featuring computer graphics, atmospheric theme music, dancers and fountains.

"The European states -- so easily accused of weakness -- backed this fantastic challenge 35 years ago and have believed in the A380," he said.

The pride on display was reinforced by recent figures showing that, for the second year running, Airbus has outsold Boeing and now holds some 57 percent of the world market for passenger aircraft.

The company, a majority owned subsidiary of the listed European Aerospace and Defence Company (with 20 percent in the hands of Britain's BAE Systems), forecasts that the A380 will help extend that lead.

Thirteen airlines have already placed firm orders for 139 of the planes. Airbus calculates that by 2008 it will reach the break-even point of 250 A380s sold, and from that point it will turn out 35 of the aircraft per year to rising profits.

The catalogue price of the huge machine -- boasting a wingspan of 80 metres (262 feet), overall length of 73 metres (239 feet), height of 24 metres (79 feet) and maximum take-off weight of 560 tonnes -- is between 263 and 286 million dollars, though discounts are frequently applied.

French President Jacques Chirac called the project a "big success" and said: "We can, and we must, go further on this path of European construction so essential for growth and employment."

British Prime Minister Tony Blair said the plane was "the culmination of many years of hard work" and congratulated the workers across Europe who made it happen.

Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said Europe was "unstoppable" when it pooled its efforts.

The plane, Zapatero said, "has turned this historic moment into a moment in which cooperation and globalisation are giving rise to more peace and justice."

The four EU leaders later lunched together, leaving industry VIPs to get close to the huge white plane with a sleek new blue and white logo sitting in its hangar.

Airline executives at the presentation offered high praise for the A380, even though it has yet to undergo test flights, scheduled for March or April.

Richard Branson, the head of Britain's Virgin Atlantic, said his airline would pamper passengers on the six A380s it has ordered by including gyms, beauty parlours, bars -- and even casinos and double beds.

The last two features meant "you'll have at least two ways to get lucky on our flights," Branson joked.

The biggest buyer of the new plane is the Emirates airline, which has ordered 43. "The A380 will be the future of air travel," said its chairman Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al-Maktoum.

Airbus's success with the A380 is raising hackles at Boeing, which has won relatively little interest in its own new offering, a long-range mid-size plane called the 7E7 Dreamliner.

Yves Galland, the chairman of Boeing France, called Airbus's sales projections too optimistic.

"We know that passengers have other expectations," he told Europe 1 radio, adding that travellers want "direct connections that call for an entirely different airplane" -- a reference to the 7E7.

A bruising dispute over state subsidies between Boeing and Airbus is currently the subject of tense negotiations which, if they fail at the end of a three-month deadline, will blow up into a full-blown arbitration case at the World Trade Organisation.

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/050118/1/3pxh8.html

Is it just me or these Europeans are really saying "My pen0r is bigger than your penur"?

 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
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I'm not sure why this has anything to do with Europe versus America. The 747 is as big as we have gone for a long time, likely due to financial reasons.

Wait until the tail/wing falls off one and 800+ people die because Airbus still thinks it's a good idea to bolt composite structures together. Hopefully Europe has realized why American planes don't use this methodology and we won't have such a disaster.
 

illustri

Golden Member
Mar 14, 2001
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does it have showers?
can you imagine 500 europeans in proximity to each other
with recirculated air
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,811
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
I'm not sure why this has anything to do with Europe versus America. The 747 is as big as we have gone for a long time, likely due to financial reasons.

Wait until the tail/wing falls off one and 800+ people die because Airbus still thinks it's a good idea to bolt composite structures together. Hopefully Europe has realized why American planes don't use this methodology and we won't have such a disaster.

Aircrafts crash due to any particular reason, so its not fair to say that Airbus planes crash any more than Boeing planes. Now you may be correct, since I have not studied this. But thats just my feeling on it
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
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Originally posted by: illustri
does it have showers?
can you imagine 500 europeans in proximity to each other
with recirculated air

oh versus some 300 americans (max capacity due to the avg horizontal displacement) ;)
 

illustri

Golden Member
Mar 14, 2001
1,490
0
0
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: illustri
does it have showers?
can you imagine 500 europeans in proximity to each other
with recirculated air

oh versus some 300 americans (max capacity due to the avg horizontal displacement) ;)

they can sit in the aisles
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: raildogg
Aircrafts crash due to any particular reason, so its not fair to say that Airbus planes crash any more than Boeing planes. Now you may be correct, since I have not studied this. But thats just my feeling on it
There was at least one Airbus plane that crashed for this reason. I can't recall the flight number, but the tail came off. Basically, by putting holes in a composite part, you're decreasing the strength of the part in an unknown fashion, since you're creating a discontinuity in the fibers that give the part its strength. American companies abandoned this procedure some time ago in favor of more expensive but more reliable adhesion procedures for this reason.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,811
531
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: raildogg
Aircrafts crash due to any particular reason, so its not fair to say that Airbus planes crash any more than Boeing planes. Now you may be correct, since I have not studied this. But thats just my feeling on it
There was at least one Airbus plane that crashed for this reason. I can't recall the flight number, but the tail came off. Basically, by putting holes in a composite part, you're decreasing the strength of the part in an unknown fashion, since you're creating a discontinuity in the fibers that give the part its strength. American companies abandoned this procedure some time ago in favor of more expensive but more reliable adhesion procedures for this reason.

you mean the one that crashed in Queens, New York on 2002? I believe that was a airbus. I dont really remember the exact reason for it. Some said it was birds, some said it the heavy air movement (or something to that effect) due to the aircraft that took off before this aircraft. Other people said some part of the plane fell.

It was a American Airlnes flight to the Dominican Republic, I believe.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
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There is no A380. There is no Airbus. It's all a liberal media invention. There is no way in hell the socialist French with their 35hr work week can outdo Boeing, a great American capitalist institution. ;)
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: raildogg
Aircrafts crash due to any particular reason, so its not fair to say that Airbus planes crash any more than Boeing planes. Now you may be correct, since I have not studied this. But thats just my feeling on it
There was at least one Airbus plane that crashed for this reason. I can't recall the flight number, but the tail came off. Basically, by putting holes in a composite part, you're decreasing the strength of the part in an unknown fashion, since you're creating a discontinuity in the fibers that give the part its strength. American companies abandoned this procedure some time ago in favor of more expensive but more reliable adhesion procedures for this reason.

you mean the one that crashed in Queens, New York on 2002? I believe that was a airbus. I dont really remember the exact reason for it. Some said it was birds, some said it the heavy air movement (or something to that effect) due to the aircraft that took off before this aircraft. Other people said some part of the plane fell.

It was a American Airlnes flight to the Dominican Republic, I believe.

That plane crashed because the pilot used the tail to steer the plane, which they were not supposed to do, and the tail fin broke off. If Airbus can be blamed it would be for not building safeguards in the fly by wire software to prevent the pilot from doing anything that would cause the plane to break apart instead of relying on the pilot to not do it.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
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Originally posted by: SuperTool
There is no A380. There is no Airbus. It's all a liberal media invention. There is no way in hell the socialist French with their 35hr work week can outdo Boeing, a great American capitalist institution. ;)
Airbus on the rise
Last year, the commercial jet maker had a particularly strong fourth quarter, delivering 106 planes in the period -- more than a third of its 2003 total of 305 jets -- and posting operating profit of EUR652 million (USD$805.5 million), nearly as much as the EUR701 million (USD$866 million) recorded in the first three quarters of the year.
What's that $1.7bil USD profit?
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
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They're declaring victory far too early. When (and if) they actually turn a profit on their new airframe then perhaps a bit of celebrating is in order. Fourteen billion dollars in R&D is a lot of money to recoup and while they might hope to achieve breakeven in 2008. Plus their numbers sounds extremely optimistic to me, that's a projected net profit of $56 million or 21% net per unit in a weak global airline environmen. Boeing's net profit ratio is 5.4%, they're basically saying they can achieve quadruple the returns of their direct competitor. Even if they could they'll need to make some serious coin on each bird to make a reasonable hurdle rate on 14 supersize. Let's say they have a goal of a 10% hurdle rate, that means they'll need to net $1.4B annually, which at the previously mentioned $56MM profit per unit is 25 units/year for eternity.
 
Aug 14, 2001
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It seems kind of strange that there doesn't seem to be any other large developer of large civilian aircraft besides Boeing and Airbus. Maybe China or India will develop one in the future. What about Japan?
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Airbus has sold 139 units alrdeady on contract. They need 280 to payback the program costs.
Apparently they have far more demand than they ever expected...good times for airbus looking ahead.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,811
531
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Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
It seems kind of strange that there doesn't seem to be any other large developer of large civilian aircraft besides Boeing and Airbus. Maybe China or India will develop one in the future. What about Japan?

Russia has one, Brazil has one too. Even Canada has a company believe its Bombardier that builds civilian aircraft. These companies are certainly not even close to Airbus or Boeing, but still respectable.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
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Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
It seems kind of strange that there doesn't seem to be any other large developer of large civilian aircraft besides Boeing and Airbus. Maybe China or India will develop one in the future. What about Japan?
Why is it strange.
Aircraft technology is highly complicated.
You could easily say why only amd and intel, nvidia and ati..back to techy roots ;)
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
It seems kind of strange that there doesn't seem to be any other large developer of large civilian aircraft besides Boeing and Airbus. Maybe China or India will develop one in the future. What about Japan?

Russia has one, Brazil has one too. Even Canada has a company believe its Bombardier that builds civilian aircraft. These companies are certainly not even close to Airbus or Boeing, but still respectable.
Brazil and Canadian companies are in a whole different class.
But excellent planes...quality is just as good as boeing and airbus.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
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0
Bombardier Planes max out at 70 seats.
Also...ever hear of learjet ;)...that's bombardier.
Cutting edge of corporate jets Lear
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: SuperTool
That plane crashed because the pilot used the tail to steer the plane, which they were not supposed to do, and the tail fin broke off. If Airbus can be blamed it would be for not building safeguards in the fly by wire software to prevent the pilot from doing anything that would cause the plane to break apart instead of relying on the pilot to not do it.
Apparently, if the plane were built according to American standards, it wouldn't have happened. At least, that's what the scientific literature indicated two years ago when I did a case study on it for a composite materials class.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,811
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Originally posted by: Stunt
Bombardier Planes max out at 70 seats.
Also...ever hear of learjet ;)...that's bombardier.
Cutting edge of corporate jets Lear

Yes I've heard of Lear jet. Im forgetting the exact story on that plane but i've definately heard of it. Bombardier signed a pretty big contract internationally last week or 2 weeks ago i believe.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: Stunt
Bombardier Planes max out at 70 seats.
Also...ever hear of learjet ;)...that's bombardier.
Cutting edge of corporate jets Lear

Yes I've heard of Lear jet. Im forgetting the exact story on that plane but i've definately heard of it. Bombardier signed a pretty big contract internationally last week or 2 weeks ago i believe.
They probably underbid the thing...
The company is kinda hurting.

The rail division is hurting, aerospace is slow for obvious reasons (see boeing), and city transport is slowing too. They are also heavily government subsidized...but all transport companies are these days (see airbus, boeing, etc)
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
It seems kind of strange that there doesn't seem to be any other large developer of large civilian aircraft besides Boeing and Airbus. Maybe China or India will develop one in the future. What about Japan?

Russia has one, Brazil has one too. Even Canada has a company believe its Bombardier that builds civilian aircraft. These companies are certainly not even close to Airbus or Boeing, but still respectable.

Russia has more than one. Ilyushin and Tupolev build large civilian aircraft. Antonov builds huge freighters, An-225 Mriya being the largest plane in service in the world, with only one built initially to carry the soviet space shuttle.
An 124 is the more common variant.
I am not sure how those compare in size to A380, but I would be surprised if they were smaller.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,811
531
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Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: Stunt
Bombardier Planes max out at 70 seats.
Also...ever hear of learjet ;)...that's bombardier.
Cutting edge of corporate jets Lear

Yes I've heard of Lear jet. Im forgetting the exact story on that plane but i've definately heard of it. Bombardier signed a pretty big contract internationally last week or 2 weeks ago i believe.
They probably underbid the thing...
The company is kinda hurting.

The rail division is hurting, aerospace is slow for obvious reasons (see boeing), and city transport is slowing too. They are also heavily government subsidized...but all transport companies are these days (see airbus, boeing, etc)

not boeing.