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Eric Garner all over again

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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,351
20,041
136
That is the part that matters. Maybe the police could have just shot him in the hand like in the movies.

If he had just not reached for the gun he would be alive today.

Why do you think he was reaching for the gun?

I don't think he was just getting it to hand it to the police.
obviously, that's your opinion.

It also seems to be your opinion that cops always get the benefit of the doubt, when they are the only ones alive to tell the tale....despite countless piles of evidence that any honest observer should only ever be skeptical of all such murderous encounters with them.

but hey, that's all just your opinion.
 
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pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
17,958
1,952
126
obviously, that's your opinion.

It also seems to be your opinion that cops always get the benefit of the doubt, when they are the only ones alive to tell the tale....despite countless piles of evidence that any honest observer should only ever be skeptical of all such murderous encounters with them.

but hey, that's all just your opinion.

And that is just Your opinion. LOL

I see you avoided the questions:

Why do you think he was reaching for the gun?

What would you have done were you the police and he was reaching for the gun?

Care to answer honestly?

I doubt that you will. That is also just my opinion.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
8,298
4,198
146
That is the part that matters. Maybe the police could have just shot him in the hand like in the movies.

If he had just not reached for the gun he would be alive today.

Why do you think he was reaching for the gun?

I don't think he was just getting it to hand it to the police.
Wait, so the cop had him on the ground, and dropped his gun.

Then supposedly the guy on the ground reached for the gun (unconfirmed).

So the cop picked up the gun, and shot him? Why wouldn't he just holster it correctly at that point? Once the cop obtained control of the firearm, the threat was removed, there was no reason to shoot him, correct?
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
17,958
1,952
126
Wait, so the cop had him on the ground, and dropped his gun.

Then supposedly the guy on the ground reached for the gun (unconfirmed).

So the cop picked up the gun, and shot him? Why wouldn't he just holster it correctly at that point? Once the cop obtained control of the firearm, the threat was removed, there was no reason to shoot him, correct?
No. Read the article.

The guy had the gun and dropped it after he was chased by the police and ordered to do so.
The guy laid on the ground face down as instructed, with the gun near his hand.
The police holstered HIS Gun in order to hand cuff the guy.
The guy went for the gun that he had previously dropped and the police shot him.

Real simple.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
8,298
4,198
146
No. Read the article.

The guy had the gun and dropped it after he was chased by the police and ordered to do so.
The guy laid on the ground face down as instructed, with the gun near his hand.
The police holstered HIS Gun in order to hand cuff the guy.
The guy went for the gun that he had previously dropped and the police shot him.

Real simple.
That makes no sense. Why would someone who was being chased abandon the opportunity to fire, only to pick up the firearm after being pinned down with cops on him in an attempt to shoot? Why would the police pin him down prior to obtaining positive control of the firearm? Why wouldn't they have him move away from the firearm prior to getting on the ground, or tell him to throw the firearm elsewhere if he was already on the ground?

All of this doesn't make sense, and sounds a lot like they shot him then decided after the fact to state that he was 'going for the firearm'.
 
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pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
17,958
1,952
126
That makes no sense. Why would someone who was being chased abandon the opportunity to fire, only to pick up the firearm after being pinned down with cops on him in an attempt to shoot? Why would the police pin him down prior to obtaining positive control of the firearm? Why wouldn't they have him move away from the firearm prior to getting on the ground, or tell him to throw the firearm elsewhere if he was already on the ground?

All of this doesn't make sense, and sounds a lot like they shot him then decided after the fact to state that he was 'going for the firearm'.

He wasn't pinned down. He was on the ground and when they were approaching him to pin and cuff him he reached for the gun.

Let me assist since you refuse to read the article in its entirety:


Quoted the article Below:

"He said Vega gave multiple commands for Guardado to stop during the chase, during which Guardado pulled out the gun. He said Guardado then obeyed commands to stop, turned around and raised both hands while still armed.

Guardado was ordered to place the firearm on the ground, which he did, Marangell said. Guardado then positioned himself face-down on the ground, but the gun was near his right hand, Marangell said.

Vega holstered his weapon and began approaching Guardado to cuff him, saying, “Don’t reach for the gun,” Marangell said. He said that’s when Guardado reached for the gun, and Vega opened fire.
"
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
78,608
11,535
126
well, I guess it all makes sense now.

Unless somebody is lying.

But what kind of person would lie to avoid prison?
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
32,330
11,041
146
Where's the body cam footage?

Still doesn't add up. Face down, already gave up, but gonna get the gun? Highly unlikely.

But go ahead and take the words of LASD for truth lol

 
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TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
23,413
2,706
136
Where's the body cam footage?

Still doesn't add up. Face down, already gave up, but gonna get the gun? Highly unlikely.

But go ahead and take the words of LASD for truth lol

Or allowing him to go to the ground within arms reach of the gun? Doesn't make a lot of sense.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
8,298
4,198
146
He wasn't pinned down. He was on the ground and when they were approaching him to pin and cuff him he reached for the gun.

Let me assist since you refuse to read the article in its entirety:


Quoted the article Below:

"He said Vega gave multiple commands for Guardado to stop during the chase, during which Guardado pulled out the gun. He said Guardado then obeyed commands to stop, turned around and raised both hands while still armed.

Guardado was ordered to place the firearm on the ground, which he did, Marangell said. Guardado then positioned himself face-down on the ground, but the gun was near his right hand, Marangell said.

Vega holstered his weapon and began approaching Guardado to cuff him, saying, “Don’t reach for the gun,” Marangell said. He said that’s when Guardado reached for the gun, and Vega opened fire.
"
Sorry, but I refuse the give the officer the benefit of the doubt on this one. That whole sequence of events doesn't make sense from the perpetrator's perspective, nor from the officer's perspective of what series of commands he should have been issuing. Who in their right mind would holster their gun when the subject still had a firearm in reach? And how was the officer able to unholster his gun, aim, and fire, before the perp who supposedly reached out for his gun in a manner that was risking the cop's life was able to grab it and fire?
 
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Mar 11, 2004
20,941
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Nov 8, 2012
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I'm guessing this is our official George Floyd thread?

Latest News: Police Bodycam footage leaks.

As I suspected, he was resisting - which is obviously what drived the cops actions from "Sitting him down against the wall and just peacefully asking questions" turned into putting him on the ground.


Of course, that doesn't excuse the fact that his leg shouldn't have been choking him - but just following up because everyone wanted to give the narrative that Floyd was peaceful the whole time.

 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
32,330
11,041
146
I'm guessing this is our official George Floyd thread?

Latest News: Police Bodycam footage leaks.

As I suspected, he was resisting - which is obviously what drived the cops actions from "Sitting him down against the wall and just peacefully asking questions" turned into putting him on the ground.


Of course, that doesn't excuse the fact that his leg shouldn't have been choking him - but just following up because everyone wanted to give the narrative that Floyd was peaceful the whole time.

Are you redefining the word "everyone"? I certainly didn't think Floyd was "peaceful the whole time", but from the get go it was obvious that police brutality played a part. Reading the transcript just reinforces that fact.

So your effort here, by your own admission, in vain.

As you said, I haven't seen a single shred of evidence to justify what the police did. Feel free to enlighten the rest of us with 12 year old debate skills.

Also, washingtontimes, how unexpected :laughing:
 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,300
645
126
As you said, I haven't seen a single shred of evidence to justify what the police did. Feel free to enlighten the rest of us with 12 year old debate skills.
People love to argue that this is an experience that any black person has to contend with.

No one has shown either that it was because of racism by Chauvin. This case was very similar to Tony Tippa. Because the protocol demands that they keep the person down until help arrives, you eventually get outcomes like this.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
32,330
11,041
146
People love to argue that this is an experience that any black person has to contend with.

No one has shown either that it was because of racism by Chauvin. This case was very similar to Tony Tippa. Because the protocol demands that they keep the person down until help arrives, you eventually get outcomes like this.
That's some zero tolerance brain dead policy that we should expect our highly trained officers to adhere to, eh?

Police don't have first aid training, drive around by themselves, and stuff like that.
 

HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,284
711
136
I watched both videos. Lots of thoughts.

To start, floyd acts weird and twitchy, borderline incoherent (but there are also these odd punctuations of rational interaction here and there), and is generally non-compliant and while he physically resists he is never actually violent with the officers. Floyd can't stop moving his hands, and even after complying for a moment and placing them on the wheel or on top of his head he makes new movements moments later. Despite this, and I'm not an expert by any means, but I was surprised at how quickly the officer interacting with Floyd pulled his gun out and aimed it in his general direction. That seemed a bit aggressive, but otherwise the officer's conduct felt alright. Watching the interaction, it's very understandable how what should have been a routine event over counterfeit bills turns into an arrest.

At one point officers try to get Floyd into the back of a cop car. This is when Floyd becomes the most irrational and resistive. A constant stream of pseudo-incoherent rambling. He says he's claustrophobic over and over, and officers promise to roll down the windows for him. They get him to sit on the edge of the seat with most of his body outside the car, and officers start out patient for a minute or two but progressively become more fed up with Floyd. After failing to push Floyd the rest of the way into the car, officers eventually come at him from the other side and attempt to pull him in. In what is certainly a gift to the officers' legal defence, Floyd claims several times that he can't breathe during this whole "get in the car" interaction. It sort of looks like bullshit in the videos, but it's entirely possible Floyd is suffering a panic attack at this point.

Eventually, officers give up on trying to get Floyd into the car, and put him on the ground. Floyd never "escapes" from the back of the cop car as some reports claim, but it's easy to see how that mistake was made. Almost immediately, Chauvin restrains Floyd on the ground with his knee over his neck. Floyd continues to say he can't breath but he's also constantly rambling in a way that invites scepticism of that claim. Then things start to go downhill for the officers, especially for Chauvin. Floyd progressively talks less as the minutes pass by. At first, you could put yourselves in the officers shoes and think "maybe he's just calming down" but as time progresses that thought becomes more and more specious. In the final few minutes, you just want to yell at Chauvin to get off Floyd and check his pulse.

A lot of the audio is difficult to decipher near the end, because there's a lot going on, a lot of chatter, and bystanders are starting to argue with the officers. But I did find this transcript, which looks like it was released around June and I recognise some of the speech from the video. From the transcript, it appears that multiple officers were concerned over Floyd's well-being around the time that things start taking a turn but Chauvin ignored or overruled them. Specifically, at one point, and I remember this in the video, at the behest of one officer Floyd agrees to go into the back of the cop car, and then that officer tells Chauvin to "Let him get in the car" but Chauvin just ignores him completely.

My overall feeling is that all of this looks good for at least most of the officers, and I'm doubtful that many will be convicted. At the same time, all the same material seems damning for Chauvin and he (hopefully) has no hope in hell of being acquitted.
 

Lanyap

Elite Member
Dec 23, 2000
7,148
949
126
People love to argue that this is an experience that any black person has to contend with.

No one has shown either that it was because of racism by Chauvin. This case was very similar to Tony Tippa. Because the protocol demands that they keep the person down until help arrives, you eventually get outcomes like this.


Help? Three other cops were there standing around. Two were noobs but how many cops do you need? A SWAT team? They had him under control.
 
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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
32,330
11,041
146
Re: Guardado, any bodycam footage? My Google Fu hasn't yielded any.

Shot by This agency, yea...I'm gonna need some video to believe the police. Lying without consequences is part of their gig, that applies to police in general, but the LASD has a pretty bad track record

these guys? totes trustworthy
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,502
334
126
I watched both videos. Lots of thoughts.

To start, floyd acts weird and twitchy, borderline incoherent (but there are also these odd punctuations of rational interaction here and there), and is generally non-compliant and while he physically resists he is never actually violent with the officers. Floyd can't stop moving his hands, and even after complying for a moment and placing them on the wheel or on top of his head he makes new movements moments later. Despite this, and I'm not an expert by any means, but I was surprised at how quickly the officer interacting with Floyd pulled his gun out and aimed it in his general direction. That seemed a bit aggressive, but otherwise the officer's conduct felt alright. Watching the interaction, it's very understandable how what should have been a routine event over counterfeit bills turns into an arrest.

At one point officers try to get Floyd into the back of a cop car. This is when Floyd becomes the most irrational and resistive. A constant stream of pseudo-incoherent rambling. He says he's claustrophobic over and over, and officers promise to roll down the windows for him. They get him to sit on the edge of the seat with most of his body outside the car, and officers start out patient for a minute or two but progressively become more fed up with Floyd. After failing to push Floyd the rest of the way into the car, officers eventually come at him from the other side and attempt to pull him in. In what is certainly a gift to the officers' legal defence, Floyd claims several times that he can't breathe during this whole "get in the car" interaction. It sort of looks like bullshit in the videos, but it's entirely possible Floyd is suffering a panic attack at this point.

Eventually, officers give up on trying to get Floyd into the car, and put him on the ground. Floyd never "escapes" from the back of the cop car as some reports claim, but it's easy to see how that mistake was made. Almost immediately, Chauvin restrains Floyd on the ground with his knee over his neck. Floyd continues to say he can't breath but he's also constantly rambling in a way that invites scepticism of that claim. Then things start to go downhill for the officers, especially for Chauvin. Floyd progressively talks less as the minutes pass by. At first, you could put yourselves in the officers shoes and think "maybe he's just calming down" but as time progresses that thought becomes more and more specious. In the final few minutes, you just want to yell at Chauvin to get off Floyd and check his pulse.

A lot of the audio is difficult to decipher near the end, because there's a lot going on, a lot of chatter, and bystanders are starting to argue with the officers. But I did find this transcript, which looks like it was released around June and I recognise some of the speech from the video. From the transcript, it appears that multiple officers were concerned over Floyd's well-being around the time that things start taking a turn but Chauvin ignored or overruled them. Specifically, at one point, and I remember this in the video, at the behest of one officer Floyd agrees to go into the back of the cop car, and then that officer tells Chauvin to "Let him get in the car" but Chauvin just ignores him completely.

My overall feeling is that all of this looks good for at least most of the officers, and I'm doubtful that many will be convicted. At the same time, all the same material seems damning for Chauvin and he (hopefully) has no hope in hell of being acquitted.

The info was already out there before the bodycam footage was released. Just had to piece it together and no one wanted to do it. George was already on drugs, and tried to pass off a counterfeit note. Cops came, and when he realized he should have left already, he "hooped" aka downed the rest of his drugs so the cops wouldn't find it and leverage drug charges on him. The amount he ended up taking of various drugs was lethal. He had large amounts of both Fentanyl and Meth in his system along with other drugs. The Fentanyl is a downer and was fucking with his respiratory system and the Meth is an upper fucking with his cardiovascular system. Also, he was postive for Covid19 and was already having a severe case of it at the time. The Fentanyl and Covid were making it hard for him to breath, and the Meth was making his heart race. This is also a guy that already had two severe heart attacks in the past. He was obviously trying to prevent from going back to jail on charges due to probation and was having a massive anxiety attack. The cops were as calm, cool, collected, and accommodating as they could possibly be. George was saying he was dying, couldn't breath, having an anxiety attack, and repeating it over and over before the cops even got him out of his car. Let alone before trying to move him to the police SUV. George was the one who went to the ground himself, the cops never man handled him. If you look at the video of Derek with his knee on the back of George's neck, it is placed on the NAPE of the neck. George is able to move his head about freely and does so many times. The placement of the knee is to prevent George from flailing about in a way that may hurt himself or the officers. It is in no way constricting his air or blood flow. Both autopsies found zero evidence of asphyxiation trauma or chemical changes. When a human is dying from asphyxiation, there is several chemical changes that take place in the body to make a person live as long as possible. All of which is detectable after death if such a death is due to asphyxiation. George died of an over dose induced heart attack. Once he downed those drugs to prevent the cops from finding them, his fate was sealed. The police were both cordial and patient with George's friends/passengers in the car the entire time. The friends were even shouting to George to stop resisting. There is nothing in that whole scenario that shows any form of police brutality. Based on all the evidence so far, I don't think any of the cops are going to be going to jail over anything.

I will say though that I do feel that Derek should have at least tried to do CPR once George had gone comatose. Still, the way George had been crying "wolf" for so long, I can see where Derek though he may have been faking it at that point. Still, as a first responder I think he should have started CPR despite what the police rule book for the situation called for. He WAS following the rules and training that all Minneapolis police were suppose to follow in situations like that. Of which those rules were changed after the death of George. Sucks he died. I don't think anyone in that situation should die, but the death was self induced. Maybe the cops could have saved him, but from the toxicology report months ago I seriously doubt it. Maybe he could have been saved if an ambulance got there sooner and forcefully got him detoxed in a hospital fast enough. The cops certainly didn't have the ability to do that in the street.

Everyone was yet again duped. People weren't willing to wait for all the evidence to be put out and we as a society have paid a terrible price for it.
 
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