Elon Musk named 2021 Time person of the year

[fskimospy]

No of course not. Just people rich enough that you don't know any personally, therefore they don't count as people.

Setting up some outrage, and us vs them helps. Same tactics the MAGAs use.

So to be clear you oppose progressive taxation? You think someone working at McDonalds should pay the same tax rate as billionaires?

 

[Heartbreaker]

So to be clear you oppose progressive taxation? You think someone working at McDonalds should pay the same tax rate as billionaires?

Not at all. Just the same tax system for everyone.

Not a "you make more than fskimospy thinks you should have" we start taxing all your assets system.

Everyone taxed on the same assets, with progressive brackets.

You could pretty easily set that as 'assets over X in value', just like we do with other taxes.

What's a good value of X in your mind? What is too much money before we start taxing all your assets?

 

[fskimospy]

What's a good value of X in your mind?

Let's say $10 million or so. And yes, I know people worth more than $10 million.

So are we now agreed that the tax policy of letting people take out loans to avoid taxation is stupid and should be abolished?

 

[Heartbreaker]

Let's say $10 million or so. And yes, I know people worth more than $10 million.

So are we now agreed that the tax policy of letting people take out loans to avoid taxation is stupid and should be abolished?

So what is the Rate?

 

[fskimospy]

So what is the Rate?

This is a stupid exercise, I'm not writing tax policy for you, we are discussing the basic principles.

Wealth taxation is a good way to get around people like Musk trying to cheat the tax system.

 

[Heartbreaker]

This is a stupid exercise, I'm not writing tax policy for you, we are discussing the basic principles.

No, actually considering the implications, is the least stupid thing in this thread. Because if you want to propose some kind of sweeping change, you should have some idea where it leads, and some idea what are you trying to achieve? So it's not just more "Let's take rich peoples money", or "Punish rich people I don't like".

Wealth taxes are typical around 1%. Sure go nuts. Though it then becomes largely symbolic. You aren't going to balance the budget on 1% of rich peoples assets. A few countries have such taxes, and the impact on public finance is negligible.

Try to make it significantly higher and then you just start destroying businesses trying to get off the ground as you drain them even when they aren't making any significant money. People with liquid assets flee.

Taxing loans as income is moronic beyond belief. No country does anything like that to my knowledge, as it's completely absurd.

 

[fskimospy]

No, actually considering the implications, is the least stupid thing in this thread. Because if you want to propose some kind of sweeping change, you should have some idea where it leads, and some idea what are you trying to achieve? So it's not just more "Let's take rich peoples money", or "Punish rich people I don't like".

Wealth taxes are typical around 1%. Sure go nuts. Though it then becomes largely symbolic. You aren't going to balance the budget on 1% of rich peoples assets. A few countries have such taxes, and the impact on public finance is negligible.

You keep trying to project some sort of malice on other people - why? I have no malice towards Elon Musk, I'm happy he made spaceX, but he should pay his taxes. No need to be some giant weirdo defending the guy when he did something bad.

As far as 'symbolic', you haven't done your research. For example Warren's 2% wealth tax on wealth over $50 million was estimated by her campaign to bring in about $375 billion a year in taxes. As federal budgets are usually talked about in the ten year time frame that's $3.75 trillion, or basically funding Biden's entire agenda.

But hey, campaigns stretch the facts and you said $1%, so lets say $100 billion a year. That's 5x what it would cost to entirely eliminate homelessness. Still sound like symbolism to you?

Try to make it significantly higher and then you just start destroying businesses trying to get off the ground as you drain them even when they aren't making any significant money. People with liquid assets flee.

Taxing loans as income is moronic beyond belief. No country does anything like that to my knowledge, as it's completely absurd.

Right, but allowing people to avoid taxes by taking out loans is also moronic beyond belief. I think we both agree on that.

 

[Zorba]

No, actually considering the implications, is the least stupid thing in this thread. Because if you want to propose some kind of sweeping change, you should have some idea where it leads, and some idea what are you trying to achieve? So it's not just more "Let's take rich peoples money", or "Punish rich people I don't like".

Wealth taxes are typical around 1%. Sure go nuts. Though it then becomes largely symbolic. You aren't going to balance the budget on 1% of rich peoples assets. A few countries have such taxes, and the impact on public finance is negligible.

Try to make it significantly higher and then you just start destroying businesses trying to get off the ground as you drain them even when they aren't making any significant money. People with liquid assets flee.

Taxing loans as income is moronic beyond belief. No country does anything like that to my knowledge, as it's completely absurd.

You could also not allow loans against unrealized gains in non real assets, except specifically for investing. Probably easier than taxes on the loans.

 

[Heartbreaker]

You keep trying to project some sort of malice on other people - why? I have no malice towards Elon Musk, I'm happy he made spaceX, but he should pay his taxes. No need to be some giant weirdo defending the guy when he did something bad.

I'm not projecting. It's a simple fact that you keep vilifying him for taking out a loan. You just did it again right there. There is nothing wrong with taking out a loan to keep from selling an asset. Whether that asset is stock in your portfolio, or your house.

As far as 'symbolic', you haven't done your research. For example Warren's 2% wealth tax on wealth over $50 million was estimated by her campaign to bring in about $375 billion a year in taxes. As federal budgets are usually talked about in the ten year time frame that's $3.75 trillion, or basically funding Biden's entire agenda.

But hey, campaigns stretch the facts and you said $1%, so lets say $100 billion a year. That's 5x what it would cost to entirely eliminate homelessness. Still sound like symbolism to you?

If we were to take Warrens wildly optimistic pie in the sky numbers sure. I looked at other countries that have wealth taxes. they typically generate under 1% of the operating budget, in which case it is largely symbolic.

You generate vastly more money with a VAT, like practically every European country has.

So do you want to significantly more revenue to improve services, or do you want to symbolically punish the rich?

Right, but allowing people to avoid taxes by taking out loans is also moronic beyond belief. I think we both agree on that.

No we don't. Not even remotely close to agree on this. Taking out a loan against assets, so you don't have to sell those assets is not moronic, and should not be punished.

 

[JD50]

This is so stupid. Taking out a HELOC to build a deck or pay off credit cards isn't even on the same planet as billionaires taking out loans to dodge taxes. Just stop.

 

[ponyo]

This is so stupid. Taking out a HELOC to build a deck or pay off credit cards isn't even on the same planet as billionaires taking out loans to dodge taxes. Just stop.

Yeah, it's so stupid. lol. Why do you need to take out HELOC to build a deck? Why do you even need a deck? Don't build shit you can't afford and need a loan. Same thing with credit cards. Why do you need a loan to pay off credit cards? Quit buying shit you can't afford. Sell your house and go live in a cardboard box and save your money. And get off your lazy ass and get some training and skills so you can make and earn decent wage. See, I can say stupid stuff too like you guys.

 

[JD50]

Don't worry, we are all fully aware that you can say stupid stuff

 

[Franz316]

It never ceases to amaze me how many average Joe Shmoes will rush to defend the ultra wealthy. It really makes no sense. They are playing a different game than the rest of the world, and they sure don't need any help defending themselves. Currently, 3 people have the wealth of over 3 billion, and no one can argue that's a good thing.

 

[ponyo]

What I've learned from this thread is poor people are more selfish than rich people.

 

[fskimospy]

What I've learned from this thread is poor people are more selfish than rich people.

Interesting. Can you elaborate?

 

[Fenixgoon]

I'm not projecting. It's a simple fact that you keep vilifying him for taking out a loan. You just did it again right there. There is nothing wrong with taking out a loan to keep from selling an asset. Whether that asset is stock in your portfolio, or your house.




If we were to take Warrens wildly optimistic pie in the sky numbers sure. I looked at other countries that have wealth taxes. they typically generate under 1% of the operating budget, in which case it is largely symbolic.

You generate vastly more money with a VAT, like practically every European country has.

So do you want to significantly more revenue to improve services, or do you want to symbolically punish the rich?



No we don't. Not even remotely close to agree on this. Taking out a loan against assets, so you don't have to sell those assets is not moronic, and should not be punished.

consumption taxes are regressive.

8% tax on jeff bezos' 500M yacht set is a drop in the bucket for him.

on the other hand, 8% tax for purchases made for someone who lives paycheck to paycheck means they're going to have to start choosing about what to pay - fix that car to get to work and pay the bills, pay rent on time, have enough food in the fridge?

edit: 8% was just a random number

 

[Greenman]

This is a stupid exercise, I'm not writing tax policy for you, we are discussing the basic principles.

Wealth taxation is a good way to get around people like Musk trying to cheat the tax system.

I'm curious about this as well. I don't have an issue with a small wealth tax, even 3 or 4% doesn't seem like an unreasonable amount. But I wonder how much revenue it would actually generate. Has anyone you know of actually run the numbers and published them? It's a lot of homework to do on a lark.

 

[brycejones]

I'm curious about this as well. I don't have an issue with a small wealth tax, even 3 or 4% doesn't seem like an unreasonable amount. But I wonder how much revenue it would actually generate. Has anyone you know of actually run the numbers and published them? It's a lot of homework to do on a lark.

how much revenue would a us wealth tax generate - Google Search

Short answer a significant amount depending on how it’s structured and what is covered.

CNBC fact checked warrens campaign and determined the tax would raise 2.3 trillion over ten years in the low end.

 

[Zorba]

What I've learned from this thread is poor people are more selfish than rich people.

I seriously doubt anyone in this thread is poor. Unless you mean in comparison to Elon, then you are also poor as shit.

 

[rmacd02]

Interesting. Can you elaborate?

No elaboration needed. He is just proving he can make stupid posts.

 

[Heartbreaker]

consumption taxes are regressive.

8% tax on jeff bezos' 500M yacht set is a drop in the bucket for him.

on the other hand, 8% tax for purchases made for someone who lives paycheck to paycheck means they're going to have to start choosing about what to pay - fix that car to get to work and pay the bills, pay rent on time, have enough food in the fridge?

edit: 8% was just a random number

VAT is how most of the world raises a significant portion of tax income (practically all of Europe). I like VAT as it tends to be collected even from criminals, and wealthy people, without reportable income.

Since nearly the entire rest of the world is using VAT, it's regressive nature is obviously an easily solvable issue. Typically there are small list basic necessity exemptions (food and rent...), plus lower income people get direct rebates. The most progressive countries in the world, with much better wealth distribution are making extensive use of this tax.

In Europe the typical VAT rate is around 20%, so Billionaires like Bezos would be paying 20% of that Yacht, and everything else in is lavish life. While he can afford it, it's a significant revenue generator, and would likely be more than the income tax he pays.

That 20% helps Europe fund it's much more progressive social systems. It's an order of magnitude more than what a wealth tax would generate assuming the Billionaires would stick around to keep paying your wealth tax.

Fans of a Wealth tax have to realize it's VERY easy for someone like Bezos to evade, since he can just move to a different country. Billionaires have the resources to live anywhere in the world they want, and since wealth taxes are extremely rare, there is little chance he would have to concern himself with such a tax.

 

[Fenixgoon]

VAT is how most of the world raises a significant portion of tax income (practically all of Europe). I like VAT as it tends to be collected even from criminals, and wealthy people, without reportable income.

Since nearly the entire rest of the world is using VAT, it's regressive nature is obviously an easily solvable issue. Typically there are small list basic necessity exemptions (food and rent...), plus lower income people get direct rebates. The most progressive countries in the world, with much better wealth distribution are making extensive use of this tax.

In Europe the typical VAT rate is around 20%, so Billionaires like Bezos would be paying 20% of that Yacht, and everything else in is lavish life. While he can afford it, it's a significant revenue generator, and would likely be more than the income tax he pays.

That 20% helps Europe fund it's much more progressive social systems. It's an order of magnitude more than what a wealth tax would generate assuming the Billionaires would stick around to keep paying your wealth tax.

Fans of a Wealth tax have to realize it's VERY easy for someone like Bezos to evade, since he can just move to a different country. Billionaires have the resources to live anywhere in the world they want, and since wealth taxes are extremely rare, there is little chance he would have to concern himself with such a tax.

We already have sales tax, so an additional VAT would be truly punishing for the middle class and lower.

People keep making the "but the rich will move" argument when they can already move wherever. As long as the US has strong financial laws, a stable government, and the USD is the world reserve currency, there aren't many better places to park shittons of money.

Raise the taxes. Let's see if those people move. Either they don't, and more tax revenue is raised, or they do, in which case we lose some pittance amount because of how well the wealthy shield their money already.

 

[Heartbreaker]

We already have sales tax, so an additional VAT would be truly punishing for the middle class and lower.

Totally ignoring abundant evidence to the contrary from the world and especialy Europe where the Middle Class and lower arguable have much better outcomes.

 

[fskimospy]

We already have sales tax, so an additional VAT would be truly punishing for the middle class and lower.

People keep making the "but the rich will move" argument when they can already move wherever. As long as the US has strong financial laws, a stable government, and the USD is the world reserve currency, there aren't many better places to park shittons of money.

Raise the taxes. Let's see if those people move. Either they don't, and more tax revenue is raised, or they do, in which case we lose some pittance amount because of how well the wealthy shield their money already.

Sales taxes and VAT don’t have to be regressive, that’s a policy choice.

 

[cytg111]

Totally ignoring abundant evidence to the contrary from the world and especialy Europe where the Middle Class and lower arguable have much better outcomes.

To be fair, Europe *has* a middle class ... It looks to me as if its a somewhat eroded territory in the US.