Ellen Pao loses her lawsuit, now she is unemployable.

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
Re the Chickfilla guy

Most of you seem to have pretty much written this guy off. One person called his action vile and cowardly. I'm guessing that they (along with a few others here) haven't actually watched the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_jyo14049Q

For this someone is supposed to never work again at a decent job?

It was maybe a rather silly thing for him to do but seriously folks....
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
Interim CEO is a job. She was hired for it. After she filed the law suit. See how that works?

It's a job in the sense that it is employment but it is employment under a contract with stipulations. I.e. she is a temporary CEO until the board at Reddit finds a permanent CEO to hand the job over too. All she is doing is keeping the seat warm.
 
Last edited:

nexus5rocks

Senior member
Mar 12, 2014
382
74
101
Re the Chickfilla guy

Most of you seem to have pretty much written this guy off. One person called his action vile and cowardly. I'm guessing that they (along with a few others here) haven't actually watched the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_jyo14049Q

For this someone is supposed to never work again at a decent job?

It was maybe a rather silly thing for him to do but seriously folks....

He was acting rather smug, thought he would get his 15 minutes of fame (or infamy) and it totally backfired on him.

While I do feel his apology is genuine and he shouldn't have lost his job for it, that was his employer's choice.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
Re the Chickfilla guy

Most of you seem to have pretty much written this guy off. One person called his action vile and cowardly. I'm guessing that they (along with a few others here) haven't actually watched the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_jyo14049Q

For this someone is supposed to never work again at a decent job?

It was maybe a rather silly thing for him to do but seriously folks....

Because of his position as CFO he was a public enough of a figure that the backlash came back to his company. So he walks in the next day and HR is getting death threats from the internet. Thats why.

For being all smug about "bro did you even watch the video"

Bro did you even read the article?

Smith told 20/20: 'I got into work and the receptionist, the first thing, big eyes, 'Adam, what did you do?', she said. 'The voicemail is completely full, and it's full of bomb threats.''

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Chick-fil-left-unemployed.html#ixzz3VhavW7TE
 
Last edited:

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
A CFO of a company that makes catheters in supply for a few hundred other manufacturers (and not a direct seller to consumers) is not going to be a very public figure. This isn't Mozilla.

Furthermore, a CFO is not some kind of public interfacing position to begin with.

It's entirely possible his company would have been flooded with threats even if he had a lower position. The company Adria Richards worked for did and she wasn't nearly as high up as CFO (although Adria Richards did something IMO worse than what this guy did) All that was needed was for his employment to be publicly accessible in some way. This could have happened to someone working a low level position too. Look at Getting Racists Fired, the people aren't focused only on getting people from high level positions fired, quite the contrary it's usually the opposite.

Yeah the company said that they fired him because of how he presents the company, maybe that was the only reason, or maybe they said it because they knew it was what these people threatening them wanted to hear (rather than "we don't want to take the risk keeping you employed while these angry crazy people are talking about blowing us up") We'll never really know.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
A CFO of a company that makes catheters in supply for a few hundred other manufacturers (and not a direct seller to consumers) is not going to be a very public figure. This isn't Mozilla.

Furthermore, a CFO is not some kind of public interfacing position to begin with.

It's entirely possible his company would have been flooded with threats even if he had a lower position. The company Adria Richards worked for did and she wasn't nearly as high up as CFO (although Adria Richards did something IMO worse than what this guy did) All that was needed was for his employment to be publicly accessible in some way. This could have happened to someone working a low level position too. Look at Getting Racists Fired, the people aren't focused only on getting people from high level positions fired, quite the contrary it's usually the opposite.

Yeah the company said that they fired him because of how he presents the company, maybe that was the only reason, or maybe they said it because they knew it was what these people threatening them wanted to hear (rather than "we don't want to take the risk keeping you employed while these angry crazy people are talking about blowing us up") We'll never really know.

It depends on how much of a social media presence you hold. His youtube was likely linked to his linkedin, work phone numbers google-able and all.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
Because of his position as CFO he was a public enough of a figure that the backlash came back to his company. So he walks in the next day and HR is getting death threats from the internet. Thats why.

For being all smug about "bro did you even watch the video"

Bro did you even read the article?

We're not 'bros' and the fact that people were sending death threats simply tells us that the people making the threats are idiots, nothing else.

The point re watching the video was in reaction to implications from some folks here that he was frothing, ranting and raving at this poor woman. One person called his behavior vile. Meanwhile, the actual video shows a guy calmly conversing with a young woman who obviously just wishes he'd go away and let her serve the next customer.

Yeah, he did something stupid but anyone who believes that it's appropriate for this guy to be treated as a pariah for the rest of his life based on what is shown in this video would appear to have some issues of their own that they should probably look to dealing with.
 
Last edited:

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
Guess again. Jury consisted of six men and six women. Among them, four were white, one was black, two were hispanic, and five were asian. Did you really think they court would have accepted an all male jury?



75% is required, which they reached on three of the four claims, including anything having to do with gender discrimination. The last claim, concerning the nature of her firing, is not decided on yet.


That fact that sexual explicit emails and letters were sent to her by the company is not in dispute. The jury seems to have legalized sexual harassment.
 

touchstone

Senior member
Feb 25, 2015
603
0
0
lol. Her husband is a grifter too, why should we not suspect her motivations when she is quite literally in bed with criminals?
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
Her case didn't even claim sexual harassment...
Sexual harassment goes hand in hand with gender discrimination. The fact is they felt it was good to send women in the company sexually explicit material, showed how little they respected women. It shows the mind set they have.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
Sexual harassment goes hand in hand with gender discrimination. The fact is they felt it was good to send women in the company sexually explicit material, showed how little they respected women. It shows the mind set they have.

Gender-based discrimination and sexual harassment are in fact different things, and they didn't sue for sexual harassment, so you really can't say that the court is legalizing sexual harassment regardless of whether or not you could make a claim to it. If they wanted to sue for sexual harassment they should have. Had they not shows Pao and/or her lawyers must have not thought they had much of a case.
 

Hugo Drax

Diamond Member
Nov 20, 2011
5,647
47
91
She was a crap employee and tried to follow in her husbands footsteps of playing the minority card. It failed.

You are not excused for being a crap employee just because you are a Woman.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
It's a job in the sense that it is employment but it is employment under a contract with stipulations. I.e. she is a temporary CEO until the board at Reddit find a permanent CEO to hand the job over too. All she is doing is keeping the seat warm.

I don't have the patience to explain it the third time. You win. :thumbsup:
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
In regard to Pao, I recall reading that her lawyers presented some information about the number of female hires for the company. It seems that this was put forth to suggest that the company discriminated in its hiring of emales. What bugs me about this is it feels like unsubstantial evidence. Essentially, how useful is it for me to know how many females they hired when I don't even know how many they interviewed? That's also extremely basic information, because even if they interviewed 100 females and 1 male, how do I know that the 100 females weren't poorer candidates than the 1 male?

He made a video where he went on a rant about Chik-Fil-A supporting hate groups and threw in at the end that he doesn't understand how she works there, while also saying she deserves better. He didn't come off as threatening. He made her uncomfortable for all of about a minute.

Sure it was wildly inappropriate and inconsiderate to the worker, and arrogant to pull off as a stupid publicity stunt to make him feel like a good guy fighting a good fight (he even pats himself on the back for it). After he lost his job he posted an apology video to the woman. Don't you think removing his ability to ever get work again is a little harsh?

Just look at the text used in the article (emphasis mine)...

Filmed by Smith on his own phone, the former CFO gets to the window of the drive-thru and starts to all-out bully the young female employee behind the counter, who remains calm and polite throughout the whole exchange.
Now, I read that part before I watched the video, and I was shocked... at how tame he was. He didn't raise his voice. He said his spiel for maybe 20-30 seconds and then left. Honestly, based upon the text, I was expecting him to yell and berate the girl, and I wouldn't have been surprised if the video had involved the police. However, there was none of that. Now, do I think his video was a bit self-righteous (i.e. "douchey")? Sure, but enough to lose your job over? No.

Now, I'm going to be really clear about this. Do I blame his employer? Nope. So, who would I blame? The Internet. In situations like this, the Internet tends to "take it to 11" way too easily. They're like a ticking time bomb of self-righteousness that's so goddamn smug that some of the people out there think that submitting death threats is a proper response to being a smug ass.

This reminds me so much of the situation that happened in 2013 with Adam Orth, an employee at Microsoft. You can read a bit about what happened here and here's an article about a talk he gave at GDC a year later. Essentially, he had a Twitter (public) "conversation" (i.e. not a direct message) with someone that he apparently talks to often. In that, he argued for Microsoft's purported always-on scheme. The interesting part is... if I remember correctly, it was actually just a rumor at this point. Anyway, the Internet (as it usually does) took it to 11, and he ended up resigning from the public backlash.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
In regard to Pao, I recall reading that her lawyers presented some information about the number of female hires for the company. It seems that this was put forth to suggest that the company discriminated in its hiring of emales. What bugs me about this is it feels like unsubstantial evidence. Essentially, how useful is it for me to know how many females they hired when I don't even know how many they interviewed? That's also extremely basic information, because even if they interviewed 100 females and 1 male, how do I know that the 100 females weren't poorer candidates than the 1 male?

This has been a major tack all over the media. When they see women under-represented in fields they assume nearly all of explanation is down to discriminatory hiring practices and a hostile work environment. If data is presented that actually shows that far fewer women are applying they're told it's no excuse, that the individual companies need to be on the hook for combating education and socialization of women and girls at all areas in society, and need to be doing everything in their power to reach out to women and convince them to want to work there.

No one really cares about changing the employment ratio for female dominated fields. A common defence is that this is uninteresting because men dominate the better, higher paying fields. But I wonder how sincere this is, when game programming, which has a much worse ratio of women to men than programming at large, is pretty widely recognized to be a more demanding, less compensating, and less fulfilling career. I know I wouldn't dare move into game development, and I'm not rushing to encourage anyone else to if that's not what they're passionate about. And you don't really motivate people to be passionate about gaming. But if women are interested in pursuing this career then by all means I think they should do it.

From what I understand, Kleiner Perkins actually presented to the court that they employ far more women than the average for VC firms, and that one of their wealthiest partners has been an advocate for gender equality in the field. Which kind of puts a big hole in any argument that they're discriminatory. I suppose the counter would be that everyone else is simply much more discriminatory?

Just look at the text used in the article (emphasis mine)...

Now, I read that part before I watched the video, and I was shocked... at how tame he was. He didn't raise his voice. He said his spiel for maybe 20-30 seconds and then left. Honestly, based upon the text, I was expecting him to yell and berate the girl, and I wouldn't have been surprised if the video had involved the police. However, there was none of that. Now, do I think his video was a bit self-righteous (i.e. "douchey")? Sure, but enough to lose your job over? No.

I had exactly the same reaction.

The article painted him in a pretty terrible light. I figured that it made it sound like he deserved to be heavily shunned. I wanted to comment, but at the time I couldn't view the actual video, and there was no way I was going to say anything until I could judge it for myself. And like you, I was pretty underwhelmed by the actual video.

At this point I'm not going to trust anything a media writer says about someone. At the very least I'll want to read as many sources as I can before forming an opinion. There is no longer any kind of line between reporting and editorializing, even in articles that seem impartial on the surface. Everyone is out to sensationalize everything.

It doesn't help that nothing anyone says is ever evaluated by the words alone anymore. Instead, the context of the person's race, gender, sexuality, religion, politics, income, affiliation, and so on and so forth is always a factor - sometimes to the extent that the words only have a passing impact. And much is extrapolated and assumed beyond even that data. In this case the man is judged heavily in the context of how much money he makes and how much privilege and opportunity he must have vs how little the woman makes and how bad of a position she must be in, with no consideration of the possibility that maybe he was working fast food himself 25 years ago.

Now, I'm going to be really clear about this. Do I blame his employer? Nope. So, who would I blame? The Internet. In situations like this, the Internet tends to "take it to 11" way too easily. They're like a ticking time bomb of self-righteousness that's so goddamn smug that some of the people out there think that submitting death threats is a proper response to being a smug ass.

This reminds me so much of the situation that happened in 2013 with Adam Orth, an employee at Microsoft. You can read a bit about what happened here and here's an article about a talk he gave at GDC a year later. Essentially, he had a Twitter (public) "conversation" (i.e. not a direct message) with someone that he apparently talks to often. In that, he argued for Microsoft's purported always-on scheme. The interesting part is... if I remember correctly, it was actually just a rumor at this point. Anyway, the Internet (as it usually does) took it to 11, and he ended up resigning from the public backlash.

I don't like what happens on the internet either, but I have to consider a couple things..

First, these incidents are a reaction to something going totally viral. Hundreds of thousands of people exposed to it, at least - but more often millions for it to really register as a thing. Only a small sample of people get hit by this.

Second, there's good and bad in this. The good is that going viral can and often does result in a lot of increased opportunities and a boost to someone's reputation. On the flip side though, when you get millions of views you're pretty much statistically guaranteed to reach some very disturbed people who react with death threats. If you had the misfortune of reaching them in person instead of online you might illicit the same sort of bad reaction (or much worse), but people don't generally have that kind of opportunity.

It'd be great if something could be done to keep the good and get rid of the bad there, but it can't really be done so long as people don't take (much) more effort to conceal their identity online. And you're probably not going to be able to do that if you show your face in a video.

Now those threats are one thing, very fringe, and sadly they happen to everyone who gains any real visibility plus any real controversy (but no one really gives a shit unless it happens to a feminist woman). The overall exaggerated outrage and judgemental attitude? That's not fringe, that's all over discussion forums. But, I don't think the internet really elevates this either. People have always been gossipy and quick to condemn others, especially if they don't really know them. Sadly, that's just our nature.
 

Hugo Drax

Diamond Member
Nov 20, 2011
5,647
47
91
The video he made shows he has real poor judgement and it seems impulse control issues. He is an adult with 4 children. It was obvious he only pulled that stunt because he wanted to get internet famous. He got his wish.

It is tough enough to find good candidates and time consuming. This video just saves people time he made it easy to get his name crossed off the list.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
Having bad judgement about some thing one time in your life shouldn't be an utter deal breaker for employment. People act impulsively and make mistakes, that doesn't mean they're incapable of introspection and change.

It's not like he's only being taken out of consideration in the resume pile, he actually got a job then lost it a couple weeks later when someone found out who he was. That's just devastating. Chances are he could have robbed that Chik-Fil-A and served jail time and gotten less branded than he did with this.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Having bad judgement about some thing one time in your life shouldn't be an utter deal breaker for employment. People act impulsively and make mistakes, that doesn't mean they're incapable of introspection and change.

It's not like he's only being taken out of consideration in the resume pile, he actually got a job then lost it a couple weeks later when someone found out who he was. That's just devastating. Chances are he could have robbed that Chik-Fil-A and served jail time and gotten less branded than he did with this.
Probably, and frankly I'd have more sympathy for the guy had he robbed that Chik-Fil-A. People tend to turn to robbery when they perceive no other options, although admittedly that's often if not usually mostly their own fault. This guy had everything going for him. He also had ample assets to fight for his beliefs. Instead he chose to berate a young girl who can have zero impact on the policy he supposedly hates. He was there solely for that purpose, he filmed himself doing it, and he then uploaded the video expecting to bask in his fifteen minutes of fame. He didn't even have the common decency to understand the shitstorm he'd get.

I have an idea though. There are many posters here who consider him the victim. Probably there are a LOT of people around the world who feel the same. This is obviously a guy who has a good education and a good understanding of finance and probably other things. And because of his notoriety, he's probably easy to contact. So, contact him. Negotiate a way to hire him as a financial adviser, auditor, or whatever you need. Buy his book. Hell, have him do your taxes. Society is not going to right this monstrous wrong - but YOU can. Just his supporters here on ATPN could start him to recovery, make him see he isn't alone, get him thinking about ways he can become his own boss and once more support his family. He has made himself toxic to employers, but he still has valuable skills to offer those who support (or at least don't mind) his actions.

Put your money where your empathy is and YOU can save a life, libs. Maybe you can't hire him in the lifestyle to which he had become accustomed, but you can be part of his rehabilitation. This isn't "someone else's" responsibility, it's on those of you who see him as wronged by society. Step up.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
Probably, and frankly I'd have more sympathy for the guy had he robbed that Chik-Fil-A. People tend to turn to robbery when they perceive no other options, although admittedly that's often if not usually mostly their own fault. This guy had everything going for him. He also had ample assets to fight for his beliefs. Instead he chose to berate a young girl who can have zero impact on the policy he supposedly hates. He was there solely for that purpose, he filmed himself doing it, and he then uploaded the video expecting to bask in his fifteen minutes of fame. He didn't even have the common decency to understand the shitstorm he'd get.

So I guess that actual harm caused doesn't mean anything? Just your presumption that if he robbed someone it'd mean he was in a worse position...

What he did to this woman doesn't come close to the fear of holding someone up at gunpoint and the damage of taking their money.

People are saying he berated her... not really. This was a day dedicated to showing support for Chik-Fil-A and a lot of people were also coming in to protest them as a backlash, like those gay and lesbian protesters making out in front of customers. It looks to me like this guy just wanted to make some public statement against the company and choose a really poor way to do it, almost none of his rant was directed towards the woman except towards the end where he said he doesn't understand how she can work there and how she sleeps at night - but then he quickly said she seems like a good person, which is silly because he doesn't even know her, but probably something he said to back away from sounding like he was judging her personally.

What assets does he really have to fight for his beliefs exactly? What do you think he should have done with these untold millions I suppose you think he had?

I have an idea though. There are many posters here who consider him the victim. Probably there are a LOT of people around the world who feel the same. This is obviously a guy who has a good education and a good understanding of finance and probably other things. And because of his notoriety, he's probably easy to contact. So, contact him. Negotiate a way to hire him as a financial adviser, auditor, or whatever you need. Buy his book. Hell, have him do your taxes. Society is not going to right this monstrous wrong - but YOU can. Just his supporters here on ATPN could start him to recovery, make him see he isn't alone, get him thinking about ways he can become his own boss and once more support his family. He has made himself toxic to employers, but he still has valuable skills to offer those who support (or at least don't mind) his actions.

Put your money where your empathy is and YOU can save a life, libs. Maybe you can't hire him in the lifestyle to which he had become accustomed, but you can be part of his rehabilitation. This isn't "someone else's" responsibility, it's on those of you who see him as wronged by society. Step up.

Because I have some sympathy to his current situation and think people are overreacting you think the solution is for me to start a company and hire him?

That's fucking ridiculous dude. Putting outside the incredible impracticality of it all, that's basically some kind of weird form of affirmative action. I don't believe in throwing money and opportunity at someone just because they were wronged somehow. Nor do I think you need to be ready to completely dismantle your life to try to help someone because you have an opinion on the internet. I'm sure there's a lot of stuff you talk about being wrong with the world here that you do nothing to try changing...

Also please, spare us this "libs" stuff. Just because he was pushing a popular liberal cause doesn't mean that it's a liberal position to think people are treating him too harshly. Had someone gone to some receptionist at Mozilla and filmed themselves going off on a rant about how bad the company is for making Eich resign then got this sort of branding for life my response would have been exactly the same. This is what I was talking about earlier.. stop assuming everything is political. Please.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
She was a crap employee and tried to follow in her husbands footsteps of playing the minority card. It failed.

You are not excused for being a crap employee just because you are a Woman.

But that means your employer is allowed to send pornographic material to you.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
But that means your employer is allowed to send pornographic material to you.

If your female coworker sends you Fifty Shades of Gray are you going to sue the company? How about if her husband suggested it as a gift because he had no idea what its contents were actually like and that coworker didn't know any better?

It feels really petty to punish someone for this sort of gift given their intentions http://fortune.com/2015/03/17/kleiner-perkins-ellen-pao-poetry/ I really feel like Pao was just using this as ammo and wasn't actually offended.
 
Last edited:

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
Having bad judgement about some thing one time in your life shouldn't be an utter deal breaker for employment. People act impulsively and make mistakes, that doesn't mean they're incapable of introspection and change.

It's not like he's only being taken out of consideration in the resume pile, he actually got a job then lost it a couple weeks later when someone found out who he was. That's just devastating. Chances are he could have robbed that Chik-Fil-A and served jail time and gotten less branded than he did with this.

Think about what you are going to do, before you do it.

Don't attack a cashier over corporate policy.

"I don't know how you live with yourself and work here"

She's just a cashier.

Was he too scared to speak to management that way?