Elder Scrolls Online opens beta signup

[OSULugan]

A lot of it (ok, the majority of it) has to do with having a leveling system. When you have strict levels, rather than organic skill and stat progressions (like UO had), then you restrict yourself to having a stepped approach to progress in the game.

Having never played UO, I can't comment on the progression methodology there. But even with skill-based (vs. level based) advancement like in the original SWG, you had specific areas that were "starter-friendly" zones vs. advanced zones. Just because you didn't have a level didn't mean that you could go off and fight Rancors on day #1. Skill-based systems just obfuscate the leveling process a bit better. But there still needs to be a progression of sorts.

The reason I wouldn't consider DAOC hugely linear is because of the variety of zones for each level range, plus the ability to level via battlegrounds or even go out into the RvR areas to level.

Way different for an MMO as positioning during a fight is actually key.

Am I missing something? DAOC had positional qualifiers on their attacks 10 years ago.

 

[drebo]

Having never played UO, I can't comment on the progression methodology there. But even with skill-based (vs. level based) advancement like in the original SWG, you had specific areas that were "starter-friendly" zones vs. advanced zones. Just because you didn't have a level didn't mean that you could go off and fight Rancors on day #1. Skill-based systems just obfuscate the leveling process a bit better. But there still needs to be a progression of sorts.

I never played SWG, but in UO, you COULD just go an fight dragons day 1 if you wanted. You'd probably die, sure, but you could. You could equip Platemail if you wanted. You probably wouldn't be able to move, but you could.

Also, in UO, there was no "experience." Skills advanced through repetitive use and grew stronger along a (probably logarithmic) progression. Most games, even if they ahve individual skill "leveling" use a stepped progression. I.e. you use this skill 100 times and you get Skill level 2 which does 100 damage instead of 50 damage.

When you have the latter sort of environment, it creates a NEED to have zones that are advanced and zones that are basic. In UO, running around in open world, you could encounter everything from a chicken which could be killed easily at 30 skill to a silver serpent which required a lot of skill and healing to kill. There were no boundaries as to where you should be at a specific skill level.

Sure, the top level of a dungeon was easier than the bottom levels, but that's just a natural progression in all games.

The other thing that I think is killing games is instancing. Needs to DIAF.

 

[aizdaman]

DAoC was such a great game and bring back so many good gaming memories. Why couldn't someone just come out with DAoC2 so we can all be happy?

 

[OSULugan]

never played SWG, but in UO, you COULD just go an fight dragons day 1 if you wanted. You'd probably die, sure, but you could. You could equip Platemail if you wanted. You probably wouldn't be able to move, but you could.

Same thing in SWG, if you had the cash to obtain said armor and could afford the shuttle trip to Dathomir, you could go out there and fight Rancors, etc. You would be 1-shotted, and probably not deal any damage, but you could.

There was experience, but it was specific to what you were doing. Use a rifle to kill something? Rifle XP. Then you could apply that to how you wanted to specialize your rifle abilities through 1 of 3 trees of progression. Healing yourself? That's First Aid XP, etc.

Again, this makes zones dependant on level, it's just obfuscated because you don't have a level requirement for entry, nor levels displayed to tell you if you are ready to go fight there or not.

My big complaints about the direction of MMOs all come from artificial/gamey restrictions and devices.
Want to wear this armor/wield this weapon? Nope, it's "bound" to so-and-so, because he's used it once.
Instancing is another evil here. It can be good, if implemented sparingly (again, I tend to prefer the SWG implementation here, but DAOC's wasn't too bad). Mainly when you make the highest level content only exist in an instance that only allows X number of people in (where X is small), then it reduces how epic the encounter feels.
Stat inflation is another problem. DAOC had a good way of handling this with implementing stat bonus caps. SWG had a good way of limiting item stat influence by restricting it to the crafters. Many people I talk to that get disillusioned with the WOW raid-treadmill is because a new expansion will come out and render every piece of equipment obsolete instantly.
Oh, and we need developers to stop making whole-sale changes to the underlying combat engine after release. SWG did it (twice). I was really disillusioned with LOTRO when they did it with their first expansion. Really? You didn't plan past the original release and level to 50? This was supposed to be a game that expanded all the way to Mordor. We didn't even get past the Misty Mountains at launch and they didn't plan well enough for expansion.

 

[Markbnj]

DAoC was such a great game and bring back so many good gaming memories. Why couldn't someone just come out with DAoC2 so we can all be happy?

Yeah, that's what we were all hoping Jacobs would do with Warhammer Online. We were wrong .

I still think someone could get 500k players and make money in that niche.

 

[Fallen Kell]

My big complaints about the direction of MMOs all come from artificial/gamey restrictions and devices.
Want to wear this armor/wield this weapon? Nope, it's "bound" to so-and-so, because he's used it once.

I agree with this 1000%. It is just an artificial mechanism to remove currency from the game economy. Permanent items should not be the mechanism. It should be from consumable items, potions, drinks, food, first aid kits, spell scrolls, X number use wands, etc.

 

[Markbnj]

I agree with this 1000%. It is just an artificial mechanism to remove currency from the game economy. Permanent items should not be the mechanism. It should be from consumable items, potions, drinks, food, first aid kits, spell scrolls, X number use wands, etc.

Mostly that was instituted to prevent twinking, wasn't it?

 

[OSULugan]

Mostly that was instituted to prevent twinking, wasn't it?

More for preventing spawn-camping for profit and re-sell of infinitely repairable items (or hand-me-downs to alts or lower-level friends), imho. Preventing twinking involved level restrictions on equipping items.

Both economic reasons. I've always argued that DAOC's method of (repairable) condition and (unrepairable) durability provided a much more realistic method of removing items from the economy, so that people would need to buy new armor eventually. Plus having a need for crafted items w/ custom enchantments in order to maximize your stat bonuses in the limitations given by the game also provided a significant impetus for crafters.

For those opining for DAOC2, you do realize that the man leading the effort on ESO is Matt Firor. He was lead designer and part-time producer for DAOC's initial release and 1st expansion (and executive producer of TOA and Catacombs). From what I read, ESO is supposed to have 3 factions with separate PvE areas and a shared PvP area with in-game consequences (read: Relics).

Hopefully he's learned some lessons from the problems of the initial TOA roll-out. Although, tbh, by the time I joined DAOC (right after NF roll-out), and got to TOA content, I thouth the kinks had been primarily worked out, and enjoyed the expansion.

 

[Daishiki]

I decided to sign up as well. We'll see how this one goes.

 

[Markbnj]

For those opining for DAOC2, you do realize that the man leading the effort on ESO is Matt Firor. He was lead designer and part-time producer for DAOC's initial release and 1st expansion (and executive producer of TOA and Catacombs). From what I read, ESO is supposed to have 3 factions with separate PvE areas and a shared PvP area with in-game consequences (read: Relics).

Good point, Firor was definitely a key influence on DAoC in the good old days pre-TOA. As for durability... yeah I agree it made the most sense, and worked the best in practice, but man was it painful watching the DUR drop on a rare piece.

 

[drebo]

As for durability... yeah I agree it made the most sense, and worked the best in practice, but man was it painful watching the DUR drop on a rare piece.

That's one of the things I liked a LOT about UO. You could get to a good 90% of peek effectiveness off player-made armor. When you lost it, it wasn't a big deal. When it broke, it wasn't a huge problem.

It also made losing that armor (which ended up being a very good and effective check to the economy) not nearly as painful. Sure, every once in a while, you'd lose a great magic weapon or something, but that was the exception.

I'd really like to see TESO go toward that type of system instead of the more common system we have in games like WoW and GW2.

 

[smackababy]

Same thing in SWG, if you had the cash to obtain said armor and could afford the shuttle trip to Dathomir, you could go out there and fight Rancors, etc. You would be 1-shotted, and probably not deal any damage, but you could.

There was experience, but it was specific to what you were doing. Use a rifle to kill something? Rifle XP. Then you could apply that to how you wanted to specialize your rifle abilities through 1 of 3 trees of progression. Healing yourself? That's First Aid XP, etc.

Again, this makes zones dependant on level, it's just obfuscated because you don't have a level requirement for entry, nor levels displayed to tell you if you are ready to go fight there or not.

My big complaints about the direction of MMOs all come from artificial/gamey restrictions and devices.
Want to wear this armor/wield this weapon? Nope, it's "bound" to so-and-so, because he's used it once.
Instancing is another evil here. It can be good, if implemented sparingly (again, I tend to prefer the SWG implementation here, but DAOC's wasn't too bad). Mainly when you make the highest level content only exist in an instance that only allows X number of people in (where X is small), then it reduces how epic the encounter feels.
Stat inflation is another problem. DAOC had a good way of handling this with implementing stat bonus caps. SWG had a good way of limiting item stat influence by restricting it to the crafters. Many people I talk to that get disillusioned with the WOW raid-treadmill is because a new expansion will come out and render every piece of equipment obsolete instantly.
Oh, and we need developers to stop making whole-sale changes to the underlying combat engine after release. SWG did it (twice). I was really disillusioned with LOTRO when they did it with their first expansion. Really? You didn't plan past the original release and level to 50? This was supposed to be a game that expanded all the way to Mordor. We didn't even get past the Misty Mountains at launch and they didn't plan well enough for expansion.

Another thing UO had that was different from most MMOs was no defined classes. They had around 45 (original release) skills and a skill point cap (700.0 points). They also had 3 stats (STR, INT, DEX) with a stat cap of 225. Skills would raise your stats unless you locked them. Players were free to level any skills they pleased whether they made sense or not.

 

[Daverino]

I registered, but I am dubious. The trailer was not very well done in my mind. It was just the kind of over-the-top ultraninja warrior type thing you see in all of these trailers. It reminded me a lot of the Warhammer Online trailer, to be honest.

And was I correct in believing the knife ninja acrobat guy was a Breton? That made very little sense to me at all.

 

[Ashenor]

Wonder how soon they will be rolling out the first wave of invites.

 

[Nintendesert]

I couldn't even force myself to sign up for this turd. I really hope I'm wrong but damnit it looks disappointing already.

 

[Dijeangenie]

I couldn't even force myself to sign up for this turd. I really hope I'm wrong but damnit it looks disappointing already.

I don't think its going to be a "turd"! Sure it might be disappointing or not deliver on promises or whatever - but there is no reason why it won't be a functional decent game, in the same way that Secret World or The Old Republic were not awful, just a bit disappointing.

 

[aizdaman]

I signed up and am holding out hope that this will be better than the stuff I have seen. Given what garbage has been released recently, my expectations are pretty low.

I need someone to surprise me with something awesome!

 

[Wreckem]

No list for Ultima Online in the previous played MMOs. No longer interested in this game. Bethesda has offended me.

Or Asheron's Call.

 

[Martimus]

*

It's inarguable that most MMOs to come out have been extremely linear. WoW is, LOTRO s, WAR is, SWTOR is...they all are. None of them are at all sandbox-like. Even TSW and GW2, both of which were proclaimed to be fluid and open, are linear.

If TESO has a similar sand-box approach, it'll be really nice...although the combat mechanics of TES games are pretty crappy.

Eve is one of the more sandbox type games I have ever played, and it is an MMO. Most people who dislike the game, do so because it is too open ended, where there is no real direction on what you should do at all. Mostly because there isn't anything that you really should do above all others, just do what you enjoy.

 

[diesbudt]

Eve is one of the more sandbox type games I have ever played, and it is an MMO. Most people who dislike the game, do so because it is too open ended, where there is no real direction on what you should do at all. Mostly because there isn't anything that you really should do above all others, just do what you enjoy.

Another issue with sandbox MMOs these days, are the "level" difference between people doing the same thing.

(By "level" I mean anything equivalent to a character getting stronger)

Like in other elder scroll games if you are go do Dungeon A. Reguardless of your level, it will scale to be difficult to a point.

However if you have Player X (who is "level 5") and Player Y (who is "level 30") doing the same quest because of it bein ga sandbox nature, without phasing or instancing, how can both quest in the same area with close to same rate of success, without it being too easy for "level 30" or too hard for "level 5"

That is the issue one has to solve. How can one 'feel stronger" (one of the primary pulls to a lot of MMO players, psycologically makes you feel good. Yes there is research on this) if no matter what level you are, Dungeon A will give you the same difficulty as level 1 and as level 100.

This means that there has to be SOME linear-ness to the game, especially closer to "end game".

games that are not RPGs, have a much easier time making a sandbox mode (Like a shooter, as all that changes are the guns, which you normally find on the ground, rack, off an enemy etc. And all enemies can die to practically to any gun with kiting and enough bullets)

 

[diesbudt]

Or Asheron's Call.

The game that got me into MMOs...

Shame shame Bethesda

 

[smackababy]

Another issue with sandbox MMOs these days, are the "level" difference between people doing the same thing.

(By "level" I mean anything equivalent to a character getting stronger)

Like in other elder scroll games if you are go do Dungeon A. Reguardless of your level, it will scale to be difficult to a point.

However if you have Player X (who is "level 5") and Player Y (who is "level 30") doing the same quest because of it bein ga sandbox nature, without phasing or instancing, how can both quest in the same area with close to same rate of success, without it being too easy for "level 30" or too hard for "level 5"

That is the issue one has to solve. How can one 'feel stronger" (one of the primary pulls to a lot of MMO players, psycologically makes you feel good. Yes there is research on this) if no matter what level you are, Dungeon A will give you the same difficulty as level 1 and as level 100.

This means that there has to be SOME linear-ness to the game, especially closer to "end game".

games that are not RPGs, have a much easier time making a sandbox mode (Like a shooter, as all that changes are the guns, which you normally find on the ground, rack, off an enemy etc. And all enemies can die to practically to any gun with kiting and enough bullets)

Then you don't go to Dungeon A. Again, UO did this by having different dungeons full of different monsters. Shame had Earth Elementals that were easy and a great way for new players to train on, going down a level lower and you had Air Elementals that used magic. Destard, on the other hand, had Dragons and Drakes on the first level and Shadow Wyrms on the 2nd. Those were very hard for new players and melee characters in general. However, if you were a new archer and have enough arrows, you could kite dragons around long enough to kill them.

 

[OSULugan]

That is the issue one has to solve. How can one 'feel stronger" (one of the primary pulls to a lot of MMO players, psycologically makes you feel good. Yes there is research on this) if no matter what level you are, Dungeon A will give you the same difficulty as level 1 and as level 100.

One method that has been used with, for instance, City of Heroes, is to introduce the "Side-Kick"/"Mentor" mechanic which will scale-up or scale-down members' powers in your group. The problem really expands when this is put into open-air areas, where 2 disparate levelled characters may not be grouped up and are trying to accomplish the same quest.

I don't know that I want a "solution" to this problem. If you can go absolutely anywhere from Day #1 and be successful in an MMO, it takes away a lot of the incentive/reward for levelling up and advancing your character.

 

[smackababy]

The more I think about the Elder Scrolls world, the more I wish they had copied the UO formula. The world could have been quite close, the skill system would be similar, the towns and guard system could have been great.

I really need to become a billionaire so I can fund a project to make a true UO successor. Even if only a few people play it, I'd be happy.

 

[StinkyPinky]

Hopefully this game lets you play solo without dying every 5 seconds.