Effigy of Obama hanging in tree at Univ of Ky.

[QueBert]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: QueBert
... if I went out and lynched a white person it would be a crime and that's that, if i lynched a black man it would be a hate crime and carry a much stiffer penalty.

And you're ok with that? Hate crime laws are part same problem you are exhibiting.

The laws exist for a reason, am I okay with it? To an extent yes I am, the problem you speak of is people who are behind these crimes. Racism is alive and strong in the US, we don't have slavery anymore, but there's still plenty of odds stacked against you if you're black And there are varying levels of intent behind a crime, this is why people are tried in court based off the evidence not just the crime itself. There are groups of skinheads and neo nazis who go around looking for people of color, gay people etc to beat up, kill, torture you name it. There aren't groups of gays going around doing the same to straight people. And outside from a few over the top Black power fanatics, there aren't roving groups of black people who specifically go after white people.

In America there is not liberty & justice for all, the picture I talked about in my ex's house is a prime example of this. And because of this, we HAVE to punish hate crimes differently, and often more harshly to help discourage people from thinking it's okay to commit crimes against a person based off their skin color, religion or sexual preference.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: cheezy321
Wait, wasn't there a Sarah Palin hung up on someones house for halloween? She was being hung by a noose as well.

Oh wait, Barack is black. Makes it MUCH MORE WORSE :roll:

Two wrongs make a right?!? Duhhhhhh. Think before you post next time.

 

[Jschmuck2]

QueBert: Well said. I take back my insults about you living in the IE.

From one racist place to another, huh? Man, you can't win!

 

[m1ldslide1]

Originally posted by: Turin39789

Originally posted by: aphex

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: cheezy321
Wait, wasn't there a Sarah Palin hung up on someones house for halloween? She was being hung by a noose as well.

Oh wait, Barack is black. Makes it MUCH MORE WORSE :roll:

Pretty much. Gotta love double standards.

I think the difference arises in that the effigy was hung at the University of Kentucky, a public university, not someones private home.

I agree that they both are disgusting and should be removed, but the difference IMO is clear.

Again, I hadn't seen the Palin thing, but I will say the the imagery of a black man being hung from a tree is more iconic. The message and implications are stronger.

No but wait that's a double-standard! Double-standard!

/sarcasm

Honestly anyone who doesn't see the difference in connotations and intent is a fvcking idiot.

 

[sactoking]

Originally posted by: QueBert
And because of this, we HAVE to punish hate crimes differently, and often more harshly to help discourage people from thinking it's okay to commit crimes against a person based off their skin color, religion or sexual preference.

The problem is that hate crime legislation does not punish hate crimes differently. It punishes crimes against someone in a different demographic. There is a difference. For hate crime legislation to work, INTENT has to be involved. You can't effectively weigh intent though. That's why 'no-discretion' legislation is worse then doing nothing at all.

PROSECUTOR
Mr. Cartman, do you know a boy by the
name of "Token?"

CARTMAN
Uh, yes?

PROSECUTOR
Who is Token?

CARTMAN
He's a black kid that goes to my school?


PROSECUTOR
Black! Did you say black?! You called
him black?!

CARTMAN
He is black.

PROSECUTOR
O! He said it again! He is African-American,
and so you decided to pick him out!


CARTMAN
I did?

PROSECUTOR
The rage built and built inside your
head until it became too much because
you hate African-Americans!!
....

PROSECUTOR
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this
is why we have hate-crime laws! This
"monster" commited a crime?not against
an individual, but against a race! Do
the democratic thing and send his fat
little butt to prison!
....

JUDGE
Eric Cartman, you have been found guilty
of commiting a hate crime. For this,
I hereby sentence you to the Alamosa
Juvenile Hall, until you turn twen-ty
one.

CARTMAN
No!

JUDGE
I am making an example of you, to send
a message out to people everywhere:
that if you want to hurt another human
being, you'd better make damn sure they're
the same color as you are! Court is
adjourned!

 

[buck]

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU

Originally posted by: buck

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU
go kill a white women, then go kill a black man.

I bet both are equally upset, and I bet you get arrested for both.

AH, someone from Louisiana chimes in on racism, eh?
:thumbsup:

So now you lump everyone in a region as racist, nice job there champ. This coming from the one trying to teach people about racism.

David Ernest Duke (born July 1, 1950) is a former Louisiana State Representative, a candidate in presidential primaries for the Democratic and Republican parties, and former Grand Wizard of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.

Your state voted him in right?

ok, thanks, now I know I'm a racist since my state voted a racist in to a small state representative before I was allowed to vote.

Just pointing out the irony, you completely missed it.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: nkgreen

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: nkgreen

But the further you go south, the more racists there are. So since NC is south of LA, he KNOWS racism. Not to mention his brother's 4 cousin in law's son's arch enemy is a neoNazi.

White guilt indeed when you spew bullshit about a region, then claim you know because you're from there. :disgust:

wat?

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU
go kill a white women, then go kill a black man.

I bet both are equally upset, and I bet you get arrested for both.

AH, someone from Louisiana chimes in on racism, eh?
:thumbsup:

Explain. You say you have this intimate knowledge of race relations, yet you say that it gets worse the deeper you go? Why are you so privy to this information and he is not?

I'm simply confused as to why my rearing in a southern climate of racism suddenly precludes me from having any relevant experience or factual knowledge regarding this issue. your incoherent retort seems to strip my first-hand experience of any relevance to the issue.

I remain baffled by your argument, and am simply left wondering as to what kind of life experiences give you an equal foothold in this issue?

 

[Kirby]

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: nkgreen

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: nkgreen

But the further you go south, the more racists there are. So since NC is south of LA, he KNOWS racism. Not to mention his brother's 4 cousin in law's son's arch enemy is a neoNazi.

White guilt indeed when you spew bullshit about a region, then claim you know because you're from there. :disgust:

wat?

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU
go kill a white women, then go kill a black man.

I bet both are equally upset, and I bet you get arrested for both.

AH, someone from Louisiana chimes in on racism, eh?
:thumbsup:

Explain. You say you have this intimate knowledge of race relations, yet you say that it gets worse the deeper you go? Why are you so privy to this information and he is not?

I'm simply confused as to why my rearing in a southern climate of racism suddenly precludes me from having any relevant experience or factual knowledge regarding this issue. your incoherent retort seems to strip my first-hand experience of any relevance to the issue.

I remain baffled by your argument, and am simply left wondering as to what kind of life experiences give you an equal foothold in this issue?

You call him out him for his opinion because he's from LA, without knowing his experience, and expect us to take your's more seriously than his because of it. I'm confused to why you're confused.

You = NC
Him = LA

He makes comment, you discredit b/c he lives in LA. Clearly he is a racist. :roll:

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: sactoking

Mr. Nelson: There! Now you all see that I am not limited by my size. [Cartman comes alive again and laughs] I have proven my point! My work here is done! [waddles away. The kids begin to disperse]
Stan: What was his point?
Kyle: I have no idea.
Stan: Dude, I don't get it.
Kyle: I don't get it either.
Stan: [comes to a certain realization] Wait a minute. That's it! I don't get it.
Kyle: ...Huh?
Stan: Don't you see, Kyle?? I don't get it! [smiles, then walks up to Token] Token, I get it now. I don't get it. I've been trying to say that I understand how you feel, but, I'll never understand. I'll never really get how it feels for a black person to have somebody use the N word. I don't get it.
Token: Now you get it, Stan. [smiles]
Stan: [smiles] Yeah. I totally don't get it.
Token: Thanks, dude.

yeah. that SP bit pretty much sums that up.

The irony of an Idahoan or Utahan...or someone who may not have ever been in contact with a black person their entire lives suggesting how to deal with racism....

Let alone a white person who may grow up with black friends still can't ever claim to know what it's like and understand daily life from those eyes.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: Fern
Re: All the claims of

no history of lynching women

Link

From June through September of 1692, nineteen men and women, all having been convicted of witchcraft, were carted to Gallows Hill, a barren slope near Salem Village, for hanging.

Palin and/or her supporters could make a stink about it if they wanted - Palin = witch.

Otherwise, peeps oughtta keep their powder dry until the cultprits are found. Been too many occurances of the supposed "victims" doing these things themselves.

Fern

I agree. The hanging of a female effigy 3,000 miles away and 300 years removed from the last time women were lynched en masse is very similar to the hanging of a black man in effigy in the exact same location 50 years removed from the last time black men were lynched en masse. There are people alive today who can honestly say they know black men who were lynched; how many people alive today knew the women accused of witchcraft in colonial New England?

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: nkgreen

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: nkgreen

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: nkgreen

But the further you go south, the more racists there are. So since NC is south of LA, he KNOWS racism. Not to mention his brother's 4 cousin in law's son's arch enemy is a neoNazi.

White guilt indeed when you spew bullshit about a region, then claim you know because you're from there. :disgust:

wat?

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU
go kill a white women, then go kill a black man.

I bet both are equally upset, and I bet you get arrested for both.

AH, someone from Louisiana chimes in on racism, eh?
:thumbsup:

Explain. You say you have this intimate knowledge of race relations, yet you say that it gets worse the deeper you go? Why are you so privy to this information and he is not?

I'm simply confused as to why my rearing in a southern climate of racism suddenly precludes me from having any relevant experience or factual knowledge regarding this issue. your incoherent retort seems to strip my first-hand experience of any relevance to the issue.

I remain baffled by your argument, and am simply left wondering as to what kind of life experiences give you an equal foothold in this issue?

You call him out him for his opinion because he's from LA, without knowing his experience, and expect us to take your's more seriously than his because of it. I'm confused to why you're confused.

You = NC
Him = LA

He makes comment, you discredit b/c he lives in LA. Clearly he is a racist. :roll:

read my earlier responses. they address your baseless misunderstanding of my comments. I haven't really addressed your responses, as it seems you're latching on to LSU guy b/c you don't have much of a personal history to back up your own claims.

Otherwise, you'd probably try to come after me with something a bit more tangible, no?

Not only have I explained the well-understood undertones of LSU's comments, many others here have; and being that you're clearly not exposed to that southern way of life, you probably just won't understand?

 

[cheezy321]

This is the last time I am posting in this thread.

I just have one more question for everyone:

If this effigy of Barack Obama was put up outside the house that is RIGHT NEXT to the one that has the Sarah Palin effigy, would it still be considered racist and towards a group instead of an individual, like you all say? Would this change the entire context of it? Or would you all still scream RACISM!?

I honestly see it as HATE towards one man: Barack Obama. Just like I see it at HATE towards one woman: Sarah Palin.

 

[Kirby]

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: nkgreen

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: nkgreen

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: nkgreen

But the further you go south, the more racists there are. So since NC is south of LA, he KNOWS racism. Not to mention his brother's 4 cousin in law's son's arch enemy is a neoNazi.

White guilt indeed when you spew bullshit about a region, then claim you know because you're from there. :disgust:

wat?

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU
go kill a white women, then go kill a black man.

I bet both are equally upset, and I bet you get arrested for both.

AH, someone from Louisiana chimes in on racism, eh?
:thumbsup:

Explain. You say you have this intimate knowledge of race relations, yet you say that it gets worse the deeper you go? Why are you so privy to this information and he is not?

I'm simply confused as to why my rearing in a southern climate of racism suddenly precludes me from having any relevant experience or factual knowledge regarding this issue. your incoherent retort seems to strip my first-hand experience of any relevance to the issue.

I remain baffled by your argument, and am simply left wondering as to what kind of life experiences give you an equal foothold in this issue?

You call him out him for his opinion because he's from LA, without knowing his experience, and expect us to take your's more seriously than his because of it. I'm confused to why you're confused.

You = NC
Him = LA

He makes comment, you discredit b/c he lives in LA. Clearly he is a racist. :roll:

read my earlier responses. they address your baseless misunderstanding of my comments. I haven't really addressed your responses, as it seems you're latching on to LSU guy b/c you don't have much of a personal history to back up your own claims.

Otherwise, you'd probably try to come after me with something a bit more tangible, no?

Not only have I explained the well-understood undertones of LSU's comments, many others here have; and being that you're clearly not exposed to that southern way of life, you probably just won't understand?

What claims have I made about the originally topic in question? I find it abhorrent and tasteless.

I do take offense at someone who discredits another because of his location, without knowing anything about him or his experience, just as you know nothing of mine.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: cheezy321
This is the last time I am posting in this thread.

I just have one more question for everyone:

If this effigy of Barack Obama was put up outside the house that is RIGHT NEXT to the one that has the Sarah Palin effigy, would it still be considered racist and towards a group instead of an individual, like you all say? Would this change the entire context of it? Or would you all still scream RACISM!?

I honestly see it as HATE towards one man: Barack Obama. Just like I see it at HATE towards one woman: Sarah Palin.

Honestly, in my eyes, that would make a difference, but it would depend on the order it was put up. If the Palin one went up first, I would see the Obama one as a rebuttal. If the Obama one went up first, I would see it as an incredibly foolhardy move. Either way, I personally don't believe the hanging of Obama in effigy carries the same racist undertones of lynching when done in California as opposed to the South. That said, I still think both are misguided attempts at making a point, but I still see the Obama example as more offensive given the history of lynching in this country.

 

[AAjax]

Originally posted by: cheezy321
Wait, wasn't there a Sarah Palin hung up on someones house for halloween? She was being hung by a noose as well.

Oh wait, Barack is black. Makes it MUCH MORE WORSE :roll:

Yeah, thats in West Hollywood. Its still there, but to West Hollywoods credit even the mayor asked them to take it down. But your right, double standards are the halmark of partisan politics.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: cheezy321
This is the last time I am posting in this thread.

I just have one more question for everyone:

If this effigy of Barack Obama was put up outside the house that is RIGHT NEXT to the one that has the Sarah Palin effigy, would it still be considered racist and towards a group instead of an individual, like you all say? Would this change the entire context of it? Or would you all still scream RACISM!?

I honestly see it as HATE towards one man: Barack Obama. Just like I see it at HATE towards one woman: Sarah Palin.

Of course it would still be considered racist. A symbol is a symbol. The reason that the issue b/w private property and Institution was brought up had to do with the people bitching about why the Palin effigy remained standing and the Obama one was brought down.

Complain all you want, but the president of a public University can not be wrong for removing the Obama effigy. I'm sure he would do the same with Palin, though I can't be certain. He would certainly criticize such a hypothetical, especially under protest from the RNC. The UK pres is also smart enough to recognize the difference between a representation of a black man hanging in a tree from a noose as a opposed to a white woman.

Feel free to tell the individual who hung up the Palin effigy to go fuck themselves all you want. I also think it's retarded. But if you can't differentiate between public Institution and private individual, then you have no hope for the other, actually more serious issue involved here.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: Squisher
So we should base social norms, levels of distastefulness, morals, etc. on how the largest group feels it to be so?

I'm sorry, that just dosen't appeal to my logical nature and certainly opens up a can of worms when it comes to applying rules equally to everybody.

Wait... where do you think social norms come from now? Do you think they come from the smallest group? Of course not; the norm is dictated by the majority. That's the whole point of a society; to dictate what is and is not acceptable to the people of that group.

So if the largest group in society wanted to enslave a smaller group, it could do so without any level of guilt because as the majority it knew it was right?

Hmm, I like having subjectiveness incorporated into some things, but when it comes to right and wrong I feel a level objectiveness is necessary.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: nkgreen


What claims have I made about the originally topic in question? I find it abhorrent and tasteless.

I do take offense at someone who discredits another because of his location, without knowing anything about him or his experience, just as you know nothing of mine.

again, my original comment to LSU dude squarely pointed out the veiled racism--whether he knew it or not--in his comment. I further pointed out the irony of this coming from a southerner.

I later explained that this is a particular type of racism, the individual doesn't even have to be aware of it. It's very common amongst those who grew up in our similar surroundings. Sorry if my initial shortened version of that offended your tender populism.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: Squisher

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: Squisher
So we should base social norms, levels of distastefulness, morals, etc. on how the largest group feels it to be so?

I'm sorry, that just dosen't appeal to my logical nature and certainly opens up a can of worms when it comes to applying rules equally to everybody.

Wait... where do you think social norms come from now? Do you think they come from the smallest group? Of course not; the norm is dictated by the majority. That's the whole point of a society; to dictate what is and is not acceptable to the people of that group.

So if the largest group in society wanted to enslave a smaller group, it could do so without any level of guilt because as the majority it knew it was right?

Hmm, I like having subjectiveness incorporated into some things, but when it comes to right and wrong I feel a level objectiveness is necessary.

I don't know if you've ever read history, but to answer your question, yes, absolutely. If the largest group in society wanted to enslave a smaller group, of course they could do it. They set the standards of society. It was considered socially acceptable to have slaves in this country for a very long time; even when it was becoming less socially acceptable with Northerners, Southern culture didn't see a problem with it. If the majority of society today deemed slavery an acceptable endeavor, that would make slavery socially acceptable by definition. Guilt is different; it is tied to morality, and while there is a certain level of that at the societal level, it does vary from person to person. Still, there are certain things now that are socially acceptable (keeping gays from marrying for example) that are not inline with my personal morality; it doesn't make me feel guilty, it makes me want to change the societal notion of what is acceptable.

As for your final statement, I hate to tell you this, but there is no objective morality. Morality is a social construct, which can have very different applications in different cultures. In certain sects of Islam, killing an infidel is a moral act, yet few in Western society would ever attempt to call murder "moral." There are no hard and fast rules regarding morality; they are based around a common definition as agreed to by a culture or society. You might think "do unto others" should be the supreme moral code (I certainly think it's a great place to start), but what makes your interpretation of right and wrong any better than anyone elses?

 

[spidey07]

LOL!

Another O'bama effigy in southern Indiana - Clarksville. Dude hung it up in his yard as a halloween decoration complete with a "beware" sign underneath it.

"In Clarksville, Ind., Kirk Deddo strung an Obama doll up by a noose from a tree on his lawn and called it a Halloween decoration, saying it was the most frightening one he could find, WNDA-TV in Indiana reported."

http://elections.foxnews.com/2...rung-kentucky-indiana/

-edit-
What I think is even worse is apparently the FBI is now involved. FOR WHAT!!!

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: Squisher

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: Squisher
So we should base social norms, levels of distastefulness, morals, etc. on how the largest group feels it to be so?

I'm sorry, that just dosen't appeal to my logical nature and certainly opens up a can of worms when it comes to applying rules equally to everybody.

Wait... where do you think social norms come from now? Do you think they come from the smallest group? Of course not; the norm is dictated by the majority. That's the whole point of a society; to dictate what is and is not acceptable to the people of that group.

So if the largest group in society wanted to enslave a smaller group, it could do so without any level of guilt because as the majority it knew it was right?

Hmm, I like having subjectiveness incorporated into some things, but when it comes to right and wrong I feel a level objectiveness is necessary.

I don't know if you've ever read history, but to answer your question, yes, absolutely. If the largest group in society wanted to enslave a smaller group, of course they could do it. They set the standards of society. It was considered socially acceptable to have slaves in this country for a very long time; even when it was becoming less socially acceptable with Northerners, Southern culture didn't see a problem with it. If the majority of society today deemed slavery an acceptable endeavor, that would make slavery socially acceptable by definition. Guilt is different; it is tied to morality, and while there is a certain level of that at the societal level, it does vary from person to person. Still, there are certain things now that are socially acceptable (keeping gays from marrying for example) that are not inline with my personal morality; it doesn't make me feel guilty, it makes me want to change the societal notion of what is acceptable.

As for your final statement, I hate to tell you this, but there is no objective morality. Morality is a social construct, which can have very different applications in different cultures. In certain sects of Islam, killing an infidel is a moral act, yet few in Western society would ever attempt to call murder "moral." There are no hard and fast rules regarding morality; they are based around a common definition as agreed to by a culture or society. You might think "do unto others" should be the supreme moral code (I certainly think it's a great place to start), but what makes your interpretation of right and wrong any better than anyone elses?

If we can make right and wrong whatever we like it to be where are the absolutes to guide us?

I feel you are telling me the way things are and I am trying to point out the way things should be.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: spidey07
LOL!

Another O'bama effigy in southern Indiana - Clarksville. Dude hung it up in his yard as a halloween decoration complete with a "beware" sign underneath it.

"In Clarksville, Ind., Kirk Deddo strung an Obama doll up by a noose from a tree on his lawn and called it a Halloween decoration, saying it was the most frightening one he could find, WNDA-TV in Indiana reported."

http://elections.foxnews.com/2...rung-kentucky-indiana/

-edit-
What I think is even worse is apparently the FBI is now involved. FOR WHAT!!!

An undergrad in Durham (Duke) had the Secret Service show up at her apartment several years ago. Turns out, some dipshit young republican was offended by the anti-Bush posters on her walls when he visited her apartment (he had never met this girl and was tagging along with a mutual friend); so he reported her as a threat to the president's safety.

Secret Service is bound by law to treat all threats as potentially serious. So it's not surprising that the FBI shows up to harass this racist POS in Indiana