DX12 games and GPU's...I think its a trap!

[moonbogg]

Its that time again. The time for my opinion has come, AKA the highlight of your day. I'll say it straight. I think DX12 is a bloated piece of crap and is only good for selling new GPU's that can actually run the games.
Current GPU's, especially Nvidia's, appear to really SUCK at running DX12. I thought DX12 was supposed to make stuff run better, not worse. It appears to suck, unless of course you buy a new next gen GPU (naturally).
I think DX12 has nothing on whatever is powering the new DOOM game. That game looks incredible and runs like a damn dream. We need stuff like that, not this stupid ashes of the singularity garbage that runs like crap on everthing except an overpriced 1080 with magical DX12 capabilities. Its a damn trick. Its a scam job and a trap. I won't play.

 

[Headfoot]

I remember when DX11 games were perfect and utilized every feature of DX11 immediately upon release of the standard. Wait.

 

[tential]

Poor moonbogg doesn't understand the plight of those without high-end cpus

Infraction issued for calling out and trolling OP.

-Rvenger

 

[bystander36]

I would agree that it is overly hyped, but in the right hands, it should start to show some improvements in time. People on this board just go so amped up about it, that you feel let down, but it's still a move in the right direction for many dev's.

 

[Glo.]

DX12 have come to life for VR games. Mantle has been developed with VR in mind, and HSA initiative. That is all, you want to know about that.

 

[Arachnotronic]

Its that time again. The time for my opinion has come, AKA the highlight of your day. I'll say it straight. I think DX12 is a bloated piece of crap and is only good for selling new GPU's that can actually run the games.
Current GPU's, especially Nvidia's, appear to really SUCK at running DX12. I thought DX12 was supposed to make stuff run better, not worse. It appears to suck, unless of course you buy a new next gen GPU (naturally).
I think DX12 has nothing on whatever is powering the new DOOM game. That game looks incredible and runs like a damn dream. We need stuff like that, not this stupid ashes of the singularity garbage that runs like crap on everthing except an overpriced 1080 with magical DX12 capabilities. Its a damn trick. Its a scam job and a trap. I won't play.

The problem with DX12 is that it takes a lot of what was previously handled in the driver by the experts at NVIDIA/AMD and puts it into the hands of developers. This gives developers additional freedom, but that freedom comes at a price -- substantially higher complexity and much more room for error.

As far as NVIDIA "appearing to SUCK" at DX12, I wouldn't use AoTS as the sole prognosticator for DX12 performance. The AoTS engine may just be tuned to run better on AMD GPUs than on NVIDIA GPUs. I think we need to see a much wider range of DX12 games before concluding anything about whether one IHV has an intrinsic advantage over another.

 

[moonbogg]

Poor moonbogg doesn't understand the plight of those without high-end cpus

Doom runs just fine on pretty much ANYTHING. That's the engine that should take over the world. OpenGL. Vulkan. DOOM magic, whatever its called. That's what I want. It works. It works damn good. It works better than that lame ashes of the sour PANTS trick tech demo.

 

[Headfoot]

DX12 not resulting in all of it's improvements <6 months into its lifespan = DX12 never results in improvements

 

[pj-]

Isn't the entire point of DX12 to remove the bloat of DX11? I don't think you know what you're talking about

 

[moonbogg]

DX12 not resulting in all of it's improvements <6 months into its lifespan = DX12 never results in improvements

Why wait YEARS for an API to get its act together when OpenGL kicks that ass right NOW?! OpenGL! It kicks that ass.

The golden years are making a come back. I remember when loading a game, I would choose which renderer to use.

Direct3D (boo!)
Software (boo!)
OpenGL (HELL YEAH BABY!!!!)

 

[Arachnotronic]

Why wait YEARS for an API to get its act together when OpenGL kicks that ass right NOW?! OpenGL! It kicks that ass.

The Doom engine is really good not really because of OpenGL but because it was written by people who seem to really know what they're doing. id poached the guy who led Crytek's rendering engine team and it seems that he's been able to do some really interesting things (along with the rest of the team).

 

[sm625]

DX12 will probably be ok in about another 2 years.

 

[Glo.]

Isn't the entire point of DX12 to remove the bloat of DX11? I don't think you know what you're talking about

Whole point of creating DX12 was VR. Microsoft needed something for VR applications, and used Mantle as a ground for it. Simple as it can be.

For VR you need the lowest possible overhead from the CPU, and as close to metal as possible control over the hardware to bring best possible experience.

 

[Glo.]

Why wait YEARS for an API to get its act together when OpenGL kicks that ass right NOW?! OpenGL! It kicks that ass.

The golden years are making a come back. I remember when loading a game, I would choose which renderer to use.

Direct3D (boo!)
Software (boo!)
OpenGL (HELL YEAH BABY!!!!)

Which OpenGL? OpenGL 4.5 or OpenGL 5.0 or maybe rather Vulkan? Vulkan IS OpenGL Next.

 

[ShintaiDK]

The problem with DX12 is that it takes a lot of what was previously handled in the driver by the experts at NVIDIA/AMD and puts it into the hands of developers. This gives developers additional freedom, but that freedom comes at a price -- substantially higher complexity and much more room for error.

As far as NVIDIA "appearing to SUCK" at DX12, I wouldn't use AoTS as the sole prognosticator for DX12 performance. The AoTS engine may just be tuned to run better on AMD GPUs than on NVIDIA GPUs. I think we need to see a much wider range of DX12 games before concluding anything about whether one IHV has an intrinsic advantage over another.

When budgets and deadlines doesn't change then we get the result.

DX12 becomes a pay many times(games) instead of pay once(drivers).

And future GPU support for existing games can be a nightmare.

 

[Spjut]

DOOM's Vulkan patch will be interesting for OpenGL performance comparisons

Mantle support was a godsend for users with old/slow CPUs in Battlefield 4.

 

[moonbogg]

Which OpenGL? OpenGL 4.5 or OpenGL 5.0 or maybe rather Vulkan? Vulkan IS OpenGL Next.

I'll take one of each, in the order specified please. Also, I'll take any of them over Direct3D. You remember don't you? You recall how Direct3D was slow and crappy with input lag? And openGL was crisp, fluid and faster than a headshot from the boggster himself? I remember those days, and they are coming back. DOOM gives me hope for a new golden age where the games are good, and the games run well.
I want the following and I want it now:

More games like DOOM.

I want them to use OpenGL or Vulkan or whatever brilliant bastardization of OpenGL they have been working on and I want it to power new games. I can't wait for DOOM II. Are you friggin kidding me? DOOM II is coming, I know it is.

I don't even need to use my stupid overpriced SLI hackjob of a setup to run the latest OpenGL masterpiece that is DOOM. It runs mazing on a single card. How's that new Total War game run again with DX12? Oh that's right! It runs like CRAP! It runs like an inneficient piece of garbage, just like Ashes of the multiderpity.

 

[cytg111]

..I won't play.

.. Damn dude, you ran head first into that one

 

[cytg111]

I think we need to see a much wider range of DX12 games before concluding anything about whether one IHV has an intrinsic advantage over another.

- So, we need data before we can form our conclusions. Ill take that.

 

[cytg111]

DX12 have come to life for VR games. Mantle has been developed with VR in mind..

VR in mind? Does DX12 give some performance benefits to VR over non VR titles ?

 

[Glo.]

Not really. But it gives the responsiveness that is required for VR. Reduces latency compared to previous versions of API.

 

[Piroko]

Why wait YEARS for an API to get its act together when OpenGL kicks that ass right NOW?! OpenGL! It kicks that ass.

The golden years are making a come back. I remember when loading a game, I would choose which renderer to use.

Direct3D (boo!)
Software (boo!)
OpenGL (HELL YEAH BABY!!!!)

I feel like we had this exact same discussion with DX9 and DX10/11 only a couple years ago. And now look at where we're at, noone uses DX9 anymore, only few engines support OGL and DX11 has proven to be far superior in scalability and developer tools.


Aside from that, the Doom engine is very performant for a fps engine, but it really isn't pushing the bar in visuals any more than Frostbite or a couple other engines are.
And Doom in particular is incredibly easy on the CPU due to the almost non-existent scripting and AI part. It's a tech demo to sell the engine, just like Far Cry (Cryengine 1), Crysis (Cryengine 2) or Unreal (UnrealEngine 1).

 

[moonbogg]

I feel like we had this exact same discussion with DX9 and DX10/11 only a couple years ago. And now look at where we're at, noone uses DX9 anymore, only few engines support OGL and DX11 has proven to be far superior in scalability and developer tools.


Aside from that, the Doom engine is very performant for a fps engine, but it really isn't pushing the bar in visuals any more than Frostbite or a couple other engines are.
And Doom in particular is incredibly easy on the CPU due to the almost non-existent scripting and AI part. It's a tech demo to sell the engine, just like Far Cry (Cryengine 1), Crysis (Cryengine 2) or Unreal (UnrealEngine 1).

And with those words I suffered a fatal would. I bleed out now. There is nothing left for me to do but to lay down and die.

 

[poofyhairguy]

I like Directx 12 in theory. It makes no sense that consoles (which are basically lowend gaming PCs) have these super optimized games while the same game runs like crap on a PC because the PC doesn't have access to features the hardware is capable of like async or because of driver overhead.

The problem is in practice we have seen time and time again the PC port doesn't get the resources it deserves and so any GPU that isn't the EXACT same as the consoles (aka GCN 1.1) don't get the full benefit especially at first. At least in the old model the GPU makers would clean up the messes the developers made because they have an economic motivation to do so to make their cards look good. Developers on the other hand don't have that incentive, once they make their sale any support is just cutting into those profits.

I feel like best case would have been Directx 11.5- aka Direct x that is still driver based but has more features that are accessable. I don't see why that wasn't considered, Directx 11 added tessellations so Directx 11.5 could have added Async, Raster Ordered Views and Conservative Raster and kept the rest the same.

 

[bystander36]

I feel like best case would have been Directx 11.5- aka Direct x that is still driver based but has more features that are accessable. I don't see why that wasn't considered, Directx 11 added tessellations so Directx 11.5 could have added Async, Raster Ordered Views and Conservative Raster and kept the rest the same.

Isn't that what DX 11.3 does?