DX12 games and GPU's...I think its a trap!

[Glo.]

I'll take one of each, in the order specified please. Also, I'll take any of them over Direct3D. You remember don't you? You recall how Direct3D was slow and crappy with input lag? And openGL was crisp, fluid and faster than a headshot from the boggster himself? I remember those days, and they are coming back. DOOM gives me hope for a new golden age where the games are good, and the games run well.
I want the following and I want it now:

More games like DOOM.

I want them to use OpenGL or Vulkan or whatever brilliant bastardization of OpenGL they have been working on and I want it to power new games. I can't wait for DOOM II. Are you friggin kidding me? DOOM II is coming, I know it is.

I don't even need to use my stupid overpriced SLI hackjob of a setup to run the latest OpenGL masterpiece that is DOOM. It runs mazing on a single card. How's that new Total War game run again with DX12? Oh that's right! It runs like CRAP! It runs like an inneficient piece of garbage, just like Ashes of the multiderpity.

Vulkan is OpenGL 5.0. Otherwise known as OpenGL Next. All of this is based on Mantle. Mantle is also functional base of DirectX 12. DirectX12 is blatantly saying: Mantle + Direct3D 12.

What is most interesting in industry is that Microsoft have released HLSL as OpenSource initiative. And this is what we are talking about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Level_Shading_Language

It also explains what is DirectX12 and 11.3.

So you can see few factors, that drive the shift in the industry.

 

[Piroko]

And with those words I suffered a fatal would. I bleed out now. There is nothing left for me to do but to lay down and die.

Well, it is. Just like AOTS, actually. Let's wait for a couple more games to see which engine works better and which trend will be the dominant one. My bet is not on OGL pre Vulcan.

 

[zlejedi]

Well it is a trap to lure us to highly controversial windows 10. Hopefully Vulkan will get more traction and make non-windows gaming serious alternative.

 

[Bacon1]

Isn't that what DX 11.3 does?

Minus Async Compute yes.

Async Compute and MultiGPU adapter are the major DX12 specific features that won't be back ported, because they are fundamental changes to how you write your game engine.

DX12 won't have good gains until the game engines can stop caring about DX11 and its baggage.

Vulkan + DX12 will make the perfect combo and allow developers to develop their engines for better utilization and lower driver overhead.

Oxide developer Dan Baker have posted some great blogs about this:

http://oxidegames.com/2015/08/16/the-birth-of-a-new-api/

http://oxidegames.com/2016/03/19/ob...-film-rendering-2-decades-later-in-real-time/

He helped create DX9 / DX10 standards so he's a smart guy.

 

[Glo.]

DX12 won't have good gains until the game engines can stop caring about DX11 and its baggage.

Vulkan + DX12 will make the perfect combo and allow developers to develop their engines for better utilization and lower driver overhead.

Exactly this.

 

[crisium]

Hmm, I want to play Doom now. I ignored it but it does look like an easy 60fps min at 1440p and very pretty.

Anyway, I agree right now that DX12 isn't doing a lot, but I do think the "DX11 baggage" is holding it back.

 

[UaVaj]

using doom4 (gpu limited game) and aots (cpu limited game) for your assessment is a failed, although your assessment is correct.

obviously DX12 offers new way of rendering. sadly not every game utilize these new rendering method(s). as such. game performance will suffers when not pair with proper gpu.

this is simply moving forward toward the future and leaving legacy behind.

 

[mohit9206]

DX12 is just a ploy to sell new fangled hardware at higher than ever before prices. Sometimes if a game supports both dx9 and dx11 mode, i have a hard time noticing the difference between the two. The only difference big enough to notice is lower fps in dx11 mode. Tessellation may make textures look a bit more shinier but even some of the latest games have textures look so bad I wonder if its a playstation 2 port.

 

[biostud]

Isn't Vulkan a low level API just like DX12 and Mantle? (Equally difficult/easy to work with?)

 

[railven]

I feel DX12 is a botched mess unfortunately mostly on the hands of MSFT.

DX9 transitioned well, because MSFT had the 360 out to carry it, essentially. DX11 growth was slow for the same reason that MSFT didn't have a horse in the race (ie their console was still DX9 only). They put DX12 on the shoulders of the Xbone which is struggling to take lead for most of the console games as it is and flat out ignored on some other titles.

The handful of games that MSFT got its hands on have been a mess and it required efforts from all parties to fix. This is not a good sign for DX12 when mostly devs/publishers want to spend as little money as possible on PC ports while they milk console sales.

I give DX12 another year before it starts to actually carry its weight on ports outside of AMD/NV sponsored games.

 

[biostud]

DX12 is just a ploy to sell new fangled hardware at higher than ever before prices. Sometimes if a game supports both dx9 and dx11 mode, i have a hard time noticing the difference between the two. The only difference big enough to notice is lower fps in dx11 mode. Tessellation may make textures look a bit more shinier but even some of the latest games have textures look so bad I wonder if its a playstation 2 port.

All development of technology is based on people actually buying new stuff. If they continued to use DX11 the would still sell GTX1080 or Vega at high prices (especially nvidia who doesn't really need DX12). Gamers wants better graphics which requires more powerful GPU's no matter what DX, OpenGL or Vulcan version you want to use.

 

[Bacon1]

Isn't Vulkan a low level API just like DX12 and Mantle? (Equally difficult/easy to work with?)

Yes it is, its base / "core" is Mantle.

 

[Ranulf]

I remember when DX11 games were perfect and utilized every feature of DX11 immediately upon release of the standard. Wait.

My 5850 says it supports DX11 right on the box! I'm good to go!

 

[moonbogg]

So if DX12 isn't a problem, why does total war run like total garbage on everything except a new 1080? Is that a coincidence? If all DX12 does is affect the CPU, then why do current GPU's trip over their shoe laces and land face first in the toilet regarding performance? It seems all DX12 does is give us is a reason to buy more GPU hardware if you want it to run acceptably. It also gives gamers a reason to jump on the Windows 10 crap wagon.
All of the crap going on lately has been HORRIBLE for PC gamers. I mean absolutely terrible in terms of price for hardware and features delivered in game. ROTTEN GARBAGE. Hot, smelly, sun baked trash is what we have been getting and DX12 is just more of that sniffing pile.

DX12 is not for gamers. DX12 is for hardware manufacturers and Microsoft so they can remain on top of their sales. That's is. That's all it does. The old hardware and OS's simply won't work. WILL NOT WORK.

Also, I am correct. The reason? Because DOOM exists. DOOM is proof that you can make an incredible game that looks stunning, runs amazing and happens to be fun at the same time, all without requiring new hardware or stupid API's that make current hardware obsolete. Other developers can do that too, but why should they follow the DOOM model when they can get in bed with the evil doers and grab our money from our left hand and then shake it with their slimey fingers while putting a steaming pile in our other hand at the same time?

 

[Bacon1]

So if DX12 isn't a problem, why does total war run like total garbage on everything except a new 1080? Is that a coincidence? If all DX12 does is affect the CPU, then why do current GPU's trip over their shoe laces and land face first in the toilet regarding performance? It seems all DX12 does is give us is a reason to buy more GPU hardware if you want it to run acceptably.

Uhhh compare DX11 to DX12 maybe?

DX12 has huge gains on DX11.

RTS have always been CPU demanding games and performed poorly, DX12/Vulkan remove the CPU bottlenecks

If a game ever does DX11 better than DX12, it needs more optimization or the drivers need to be tuned for DX12 better. Lowering the overhead between drivers and GPU should never result in a slow down. It means there are other issues causing the slow down.

But again, to get the most out of DX12 and to see the real big perf gains, we are going to have to wait for engines to remove all the DX11 baggage and go strictly DX12 or DX12+Vulkan (as both are very similar architecturally speaking)

 

[krumme]

Its like it took 20 years to move past Dune 2
Not a small thing in my book. We have a lot to thank Mantle for. Its crazy what have happened the last 2.5 years.
I remember at that time the asynch compute was viewed as one of the most difficult things to implement - very fancy stuff. Yet we are starting to get there even for such a difficult to master tech. And the studios handles the consoles nearly to perfection unlike the ps3 and its crazy arch that took more than double the time.
For such a fundamental change it went well imho even if there is a long way to go yet for the desktop.

 

[showb1z]

So if DX12 isn't a problem, why does total war run like total garbage on everything except a new 1080?

Warhammer DX12 isn't even out yet?
And everyone who's been playing it on DX11 says it runs great.

Also, I've been playing 50+ hours of Hitman DX12 with much better framerates than DX11. Completely removed CPU bottleneck, working just fine.

 

[bystander36]

DX12 is not for gamers. DX12 is for hardware manufacturers and Microsoft so they can remain on top of their sales. That's is. That's all it does. The old hardware and OS's simply won't work. WILL NOT WORK.

Even if DX12 did not exist, new games would push settings to push the latest hardware. The dev's always push the limits with the latest hardware available. It doesn't matter what year it is. When new hardware is coming, more demanding games arrive.

This is why they have graphical settings. They let us, the gamer, optimize the game to our hardware.

 

[moonbogg]

ID should make a DOOM OS and it should work with nothing but openGL and Vulkan. I want the inferior Direct3D to die, forever. Admit it. Direct3D is slower than OpenGL. It sucks and it always did when compared to OpenGL. OpenGL was always faster and better and it still is. It just wasn't used as much because Microsoft has the money to push their inefficient garbage onto us. I like OpenGL. I want OpenGL. If Vulkan is the offspring of OpenGL, then I want Vulkan. I don't like Direct3D. Its bad for gamers. It costs us money and gives us crap in return.
Break the monopoly! Break the chains!

 

[bystander36]

ID should make a DOOM OS and it should work with nothing but openGL and Vulkan. I want the inferior Direct3D to die, forever. Admit it. Direct3D is slower than OpenGL. It sucks and it always did when compared to OpenGL. OpenGL was always faster and better and it still is. It just wasn't used as much because Microsoft has the money to push their inefficient garbage onto us. I like OpenGL. I want OpenGL. If Vulkan is the offspring of OpenGL, then I want Vulkan. I don't like Direct3D. Its bad for gamers. It costs us money and gives us crap in return.
Break the monopoly! Break the chains!

If OpenGL was superior in every way, it would be used. If Vulkan is superior, it will be used. The truth is, OpenGL has not been superior for many years, so the dev's switched to DirectX. If it falls behind Vulkan, you can expect dev's to switch.

 

[moonbogg]

If OpenGL was superior in every way, it would be used. If Vulkan is superior, it will be used. The truth is, OpenGL has not been superior for many years, so the dev's switched to DirectX. If it falls behind Vulkan, you can expect dev's to switch.

Direct3D has money pushing it. Lots of money. Of course it will be used. It doesn't matter that its slow and sluggish compared to OpenGL with that huge planet load of cash smashing it through our front doors.

 

[Snafuh]

Direct3D has money pushing it. Lots of money. Of course it will be used. It doesn't matter that its slow and sluggish compared to OpenGL with that huge planet load of cash smashing it through our front doors.

Do you have any actual experience with DirectX or OpenGL development?

 

[ThatBuzzkiller]

OP has been rather overly dramatic ...

Over half a decade ago John Carmack (one of the creators of Doom) admitted to DirectX being superior to OpenGL ...

Only one IHV has a decent OpenGL implementation whereas the rest are vomit worthy either because they didn't have exorbitant amount of driver engineer support or they couldn't be bothered to deal with the serious mismatch between the API design with the hardware ...

It's harder to parallelize for multithreaded support too and the ARB is slow to get things done too ...

D3D12 with shader model 6.0 will help a ton for developers more than what OpenGL could achieve in it's lifetime. Vulkan will practically go nowhere when Apple doesn't support it and when the advertised uniform cross-compatibility will be nothing more than some fairy tale ...

 

[escrow4]

Games suck balls now period. 50GB for a 5hr single player campaign, DLC that should have been part of the game in the first place, empty cookie cutter military shooters, ridiculous patch sizes, games broken Day 1. Meh. Doom may have been an exception but the past 2yrs games have mostly been pure trash. GTA V was nothing but a disappointment - Rockstar sold out everything for multiplayer and I still have nightmares of 6 DVD9's then a fat multi-gigabyte Day 1 patch for a single player campaign that was gutted compared to IV.

 

[IllogicalGlory]

Assassin's Creed Unity looks and runs awful. Directx11's fault no doubt.

Wolfenstein and Rage have plenty of issues too. Notably a nice 60 FPS cap (game speeds up if it's unlocked). OpenGL's fault.

In short correlation != causation. Besides, Ashes runs great. Don't know why it's getting badmouthed.