Dutch Muslim group fined over Holocaust cartoon

[CanOWorms]

It's interesting how countries like Germany have laws against denying the WW2 Holocaust, but not laws denying their other atrocities such as the Herero genocide.

 

[BoberFett]

Epic sandorski fail.

 

[Infohawk]

No Double standard. If you can't see the difference between a Nation where the Government was supported by the population for a decade and committed the vilest Genocide in History and 19 Men committing an act on one day that came from one isolated Terrorist group with only a vague tie to a billion others. Then I can't help you.

Oh so now they were "supported." Nice weasel word. Prove it. (Never mind that Hitler was a brutal dictator that put his opponents in concentration camps. ) Again, according to your logic you are a bigot for attacking all Germans based on the actions of a few of them.

 

[Infohawk]

It's interesting how countries like Germany have laws against denying the WW2 Holocaust, but not laws denying their other atrocities such as the Herero genocide.

I'm sure you have a theory as to why that is. Let's hear it.

 

[CanOWorms]

I'm sure you have a theory as to why that is. Let's hear it.

I suspect it's because Europeans tend to forget/revision their histories, especially the atrocities. The Germans and others were not allowed to forget their activities during the Holocaust. There is no third party bringing up the German genocide of the Herero.

It's similar to the Belgians and King Leopold. It takes outsiders to get Europeans to reflect internally.

 

[Infohawk]

It takes outsiders to get Europeans to reflect internally.

As opposed to other continents where people meditate on their collective crimes? Human nature is human nature.

 

[sandorski]

Oh so now they were "supported." Nice weasel word. Prove it. (Never mind that Hitler was a brutal dictator that put his opponents in concentration camps. ) Again, according to your logic you are a bigot for attacking all Germans based on the actions of a few of them.

History Fail. Srsly.

 

[William Gaatjes]

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCATRE67I3ZT20100819



lol at the hypocrisy of these dutch. where's the call for freedom of speech? not surprised that the US media didn't touch this one at all.

The dutch have a freedom of speech. But the dutch also understand that freedom can and will be easily abused. As such there are limits how far you can go with freedom of speech. In the US, people are concerned about the mosque at ground zero. But the people who want to build the mosque are not advocating victory of muslims over the death of (innocent) infidels as some members of the AEL do. As such some members of the AEL are very radical and they do not hide it. What is interesting is that the AEL leadership does nothing against radical outcries against the western world by it's some of it's members.

What do you know about the AEL anyway ?
That the founder and the former leader of the AEL is Dyab Abou Jahjah ?
The same man that was cheering together with a lot AEL members when those 2 planes hit the twintowers at ground zero ? Later he sad he disapproves violence , but he still felt much joy.
Dyab Abou Jahjah is a smart man, he uses the weakness of the democratic free western world to enforce his own radical idea's. Because of these radical idea's defending and promoting the wrong behaviour against non muslims, people in the Netherlands and Belgium choose for more right parties and right orientated politicians.

Dyab Abou Jahjah has supposedly called out for the riots in 2002 in Belgium. Moroccan problem youths started riots in Belgium in 2002 after an Moroccan was murdered by a Belgian. He and members of the AEL where released for lack of evidence. In 2006 he stated he would fight together with the Hezbollah against Israel. But it seems he returned within 4 weeks to Belgium stating he only went to see his parents. This man Dyab Abou Jahjah is a radical with personal problems. He found his peace in the radical extremist interpretation of the Islam. As many disturbed people with war trauma's do.

 

[William Gaatjes]

They did. The Nazis were Democratically Elected. Germans enthusiastically supported Hitler and the War. They were as Guilty as the Nazi's themselves.

The NSDAP was socially elected.
The National Socialist German Workers' Party.
It started out as an peoples party. You also have to understand that at that time there was no internet, no radio, no television. Only speeches and flyers and newspapers. As such it was much more easy to manipulate the public and use mass hysteria. I am not saying the nazi's where right no quite the opposite, but they just manipulated the people, they put for example their soldiers full of experimental non tested chemicals as speed and Methamphetamine. The companies in Germany at the time where making a lot of money because of the NAZI regime, while using the people as guinea pigs.

 

[sandorski]

The NSDAP was socially elected.
The National Socialist German Workers' Party.
It started out as an peoples party. You also have to understand that at that time there was no internet, no radio, no television. Only speeches and flyers and newspapers. As such it was much more easy to manipulate the public and use mass hysteria. I am not saying the nazi's where right no quite the opposite, but they just manipulated the people, they put for example their soldiers full of experimental non tested chemicals as speed and Methamphetamine. The companies in Germany at the time where making a lot of money because of the NAZI regime, while using the people as guinea pigs.

I understand. In the early years Hitler was performing Economic miracles and what not that also understandably attracted support. However, the dark evil side was always present as well.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Silly Euros! Freedoms are for Americans!

 

[William Gaatjes]

Silly Euros! Freedoms are for Americans!

Oh yes ? You might want to look closer to what happened in Germany and what is happening since the Reagan administration in the US...

 

[William Gaatjes]

I understand. In the early years Hitler was performing Economic miracles and what not that also understandably attracted support. However, the dark evil side was always present as well.

It sure was. Hitler had at the start of the NSDAP these fighter mob forces (SA ( Sturmabteilung)troopers) similar as present day soccer hooligans as it where his own private army. Any political opposition was suppressed. Later on Hitler made sure the SA where killed because these fighter mobs where really only out for blood and could be a problem for him politically since they did his dirty work. After that when he had power the SS was no longer a problem. People where indoctrinated that the SS was ok.

 

[waggy]

They did. The Nazis were Democratically Elected. Germans enthusiastically supported Hitler and the War. They were as Guilty as the Nazi's themselves.

not true.

On my side of the family My mothers father fought for Germany in WWII, my Dads father fought for the US (101st airborn baby!). My wife's side her grandfather fought for the US and her grandmother was a German nurse (heh that's how they got to know each other).

one thing they all talk about is how the he was not what they thought at first. Once he got into power he changed and most people did not like him. but you did not speak out against him.

the amount of people that really loved Hitler was very small (compared to the population). but they did love the power the country gained.

side note it was rather amusing when my grandparents got together. some of the stories they would tell (and the fights after lol) were great.

 

[waggy]

Oh yes ? You might want to look closer to what happened in Germany and what is happening since the Reagan administration in the US...

sigh. very true. As a US citizen what has been happening with our rights is pissing me off. but i seem to be in the minority.

 

[William Gaatjes]

not true.

On my side of the family My mothers father fought for Germany in WWII, my Dads father fought for the US (101st airborn baby!). My wife's side her grandfather fought for the US and her grandmother was a German nurse (heh that's how they got to know each other).

one thing they all talk about is how the he was not what they thought at first. Once he got into power he changed and most people did not like him. but you did not speak out against him.

the amount of people that really loved Hitler was very small (compared to the population). but they did love the power the country gained.

In effect, the economic fruits of the weimar period is what Hitler used to gain power and to gain the thrust of the people. While claiming that the weimar had done nothing for the German people. Afcourse it is not that easy to explain, it is a complex history. But not something that should be forgotten.
Because it is the same old story over and over again.
Indeed, there where varies plots to kill him. But the Schutzstaffel or SS and the gestapo was very effective in stopping those plots. A lot rich and influential people learned after all the horror's their wealth came at a price of death to many innocent people. As such the high society of Germany at the time also wanted Hitler dead.

 

[chucky2]

You do realise that all but a couple who have fled every single nation the US and the UK went to war with since the 50's went to Europe? I remember reading that one small town in Sweden (can't remember the name) of less than 30K inhabitants took in more refugees from Iraq than the total of North America and there were tens of millions who fled the war.

I don't know if that's accurate or not, but it wouldn't surprise me. My question would be, Why did they take them in? My preference is for these people to stay in their own country and/or region, not flee to another. I fully realize that's impossibly easy for me to say, sitting here in the US, however, Big Picture is that those fleeing are very likely the people with the skills those countries need. You let them flee by giving them an option to stay in your country, and now you just took away the skill set needed in their own country/region, plus, if you take in enough of them, you just screwed yourself by taking in way too many people of another culture.

It's not like the UK and US has done much to ease the steady stream of refugees to mainland Europe from the areas we have attacked in the last 6 decades.

Then we should stop attacking countries....except that's not going to change for one reason or another anytime soon.

Just Kosovo and Bosnia led to an influx of Muslims in Denmark (maybe it was Finland, it was a while ago and i was kinda busy in Sarajevo) increasing the rate of Muslims about 16X what it was before and this was before the mass movement from Afghanistan and Iraq.

We suck at taking care of civilians, i can say that out loud without thinking twice about it because it's not my fucking job but we shouldn't blame mainland Europe for doing the best they can with what we deliver to them.

Again, then these countries should just stop taking them in. If these countries will not stop taking them in, then it's hard to feel sorry for them when the massive numbers they've taken in decide they want to re-form their guest country to be like their old POS one they just fled from.

Chuck

 

[woolfe9999]

Oh so now they were "supported." Nice weasel word. Prove it. (Never mind that Hitler was a brutal dictator that put his opponents in concentration camps. ) Again, according to your logic you are a bigot for attacking all Germans based on the actions of a few of them.

Though the German people did not vote Hitler into power, after he came to power the German people twice voted for Hitler in confidence votes at a rate near 100% "yes" versus "no." The actual voting is a little suspect in that Goebbels arranged these votes as large propaganda campaigns. Nonetheless, internal information from the regime which tracked public opinion suggests that Hitler himself was highly popular throughout his tenure, with his popularity only starting to wane in early 1945. Hitler was in fact one of the most popular world leaders of the 20th century, measured by contemporaneous public opinion at the time he was in power.

However, it's worth mentioning that the genocide itself was obviously never put to a vote. Yet the bulk of the German people had a pretty good idea what was going on and few protested and/or tried to assist the victims. Then again, there was danger in protesting and/or helping.

The complicitly or lack thereof of the German people for the Holocaust is a complex question. Neither you nor Sandorski are wholly correct.

- wolf

 

[CanOWorms]

As opposed to other continents where people meditate on their collective crimes? Human nature is human nature.

It's also about the historical revisionism or celebration of the atrocities as something else. For example, the Belgians viewed King Leopold as a great man. He was celebrated and his colonialism experiment was celebrated.

Similar issues occurred with Germany and the Herero. The British are a great example, too. Their Empire was responsible for more deaths than any other organization in history, but they still celebrate it.

 

[Phokus]

Silly Euros! Freedoms are for Americans!

I bet people who live in the Netherlands disagree on issues of prostitution and drug use.

 

[CanOWorms]

I bet people who live in the Netherlands disagree on issues of prostitution and drug use.

Not for too much longer. It's not 2010, not 2000. The Netherlands has gotten much, much more conservative on those issues, as well as most other social issues.

 

[BurnItDwn]

I bet people who live in the Netherlands disagree on issues of prostitution and drug use.

I hear that even poor people can go to the doctor in the Netherlands! Isn't that crazy? Only the rich should be able to afford hearth care. The poor exist only to serve the rich after all.

 

[William Gaatjes]

It's also about the historical revisionism or celebration of the atrocities as something else. For example, the Belgians viewed King Leopold as a great man. He was celebrated and his colonialism experiment was celebrated.

Similar issues occurred with Germany and the Herero. The British are a great example, too. Their Empire was responsible for more deaths than any other organization in history, but they still celebrate it.

Assuming you are from the US, you are celebrating how you killed the native americans ? Everybody has a skeleton in their closet. It's done , you cannot reverse it. Learn and live on. Or complain about others and make the same mistake again yourself.

 

[William Gaatjes]

I bet people who live in the Netherlands disagree on issues of prostitution and drug use.

The funny thing is that tourists make most use of the prostitution. When it is just there and you are informed about risks and you really just want a normal relation ship and not just blow the hose, a prostitute is really not that interesting. May look exiting, but it is kind of shallow...
Afcourse there are enough dutch going to prostitutes. Most are married. I always found that strange.

And drug use, you can drink and you can have a smoke. Alcohol makes you active, weed makes you relaxed. That is, on average...

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Silly Euros! Freedoms are for Americans!

Based on what? A goddamn piece of paper that can be voted away with majority rule.

Do you think you are special? Well you are not, not at all, racism exists everywhere and your apparent lack of freedom of thought and speech is something you just ignore.

Hell, free speech and thought needs servers outside of the US to even exist or they would be in deep shit.

That's not to say that i disagree with limits on free speech, in the case of US limits or in the case of German limits, i'm just saying that if you think you are freer than say, Germans, you are completely wrong.

The rules do differ but in essence that is based on history and i do believe it's worse to limit free speech with regards to current events than it is to limit free speech with regards to history.

The US has NEVER been the shining beacon of freedom you take pride in it being, not EVER. It's a nation like most nations which limits freedoms you have based on the common good.

I'm fairly sure that if Germany repealed it's laws against holocaust denial, you and CoW would be jerking each other off in a frenzy of threads about "Europe being up to their old tricks"...

You are indeed pathetic AND very very very stupid.