Dutch Muslim group fined over Holocaust cartoon

[sandorski]

I like the limit called: Government stays out of what I can and can't believe/think.

Things change when your Ancestors kill Millions of People just for being different.

 

[OCGuy]

Things change when your Ancestors kill Millions of People just for being different.

Nope.

At least, not where I live, thankfully.

 

[sandorski]

Nope.

Sorry, but they do.

 

[OCGuy]

Sorry, but they do.

Maybe over on the other side of the pond. I live in a country where it doesn't.

 

[sandorski]

Maybe over on the other side of the pond. I live in a country where it doesn't.

You didn't commit the vilest Genocide in History.

 

[waggy]

You didn't commit the vilest Genocide in History.

i would think what we did to the native Indian has to be worse. granted over a far longer period of time.

 

[Infohawk]

Yes, it is a denial of Free Speech. However, I support the Europeans on this since it's intended to own up to a dark period in History and to ensure it never happens again. All Freedoms have limits, those limits just need to be reasonable. For Europe the Holocaust is a reasonable limit.

It's absolutely wrong to limit free speech ever. Jews may deserve their right not to have the holocaust denied. I certainly sympathize. But where do you stop? Someone could make it illegal to criticize members of the armed forces during war time. (Just look at the attitude people had right after the Iraq invasion with their blind support of the president and the military.)

If I recall correctly, I once heard a representative of the ADL suggest we should have similar rules in the US. Awful and taking political correctness beyond the limit.

 

[OCGuy]

You didn't commit the vilest Genocide in History.

Niether did 99+ percent of the people who live in Germany.

I can go to an Indian casino right now and tell them they were never herded on to reservations. Or indoctrinated into Christianity on Spanish "Missions."

True? No. Classy? No. Legal? Yes.

 

[sandorski]

i would think what we did to the native Indian has to be worse. granted over a far longer period of time.

That argument could be made. Even so, the methodological approach in Europe was the height of hideousness.

 

[Patranus]

You didn't commit the vilest Genocide in History.

Soviet Union killed off 60 million in their concentration camps and through "cleansing" simple because the people were rich, German, or opposed the state party. Don't hear much about that one but it was much more horrific compared to the German camps in its overall impact.

Both were extremely horrific but the Soviets are overlooked, probably because they were on the winning side of the war.

 

[Infohawk]

That argument could be made. Even so, the methodological approach in Europe was the height of hideousness.

Yes but arguably many Germans didn't know about it. Europeans purposefully colonized and exterminated in America. It was pure unadulterated lebensraum before the term ever existed. Fortunately there isn't a pattern of denying the Native American genocide. But it still shouldn't be illegal.

 

[sandorski]

Soviet Union killed off 60 million in their concentration camps and through "cleansing" simple because the people were rich, German, or opposed the state party. Don't hear much about that one but it was much more horrific compared to the German camps in its overall impact.

Both were extremely horrific but the Soviets are overlooked, probably because they were on the winning side of the war.

The Soviets killed more, but not in the sick twisted way the Nazi's did.

 

[OCGuy]

^ First it was number killed, now it is the method?

I am glad you don't get to define what people can and cant believe.

Luckily here south of the border we have the 2nd amendment, which you also hate, to protect our 1st.

 

[sandorski]

Yes but arguably many Germans didn't know about it. Europeans purposefully colonized and exterminated in America. It was pure unadulterated lebensraum before the term ever existed. Fortunately there isn't a pattern of denying the Native American genocide. But it still shouldn't be illegal.

Certainly many didn't know about it, but why does that matter? Seems even more important that the Holocaust be admitted to in that circumstance. They all supported the Regime, they all shared the Guilt of what the Regime did.

 

[sandorski]

^ First it was number killed, now it is the method?

I am glad you don't get to define what people can and cant believe.

Luckily here south of the border we have the 2nd amendment, which you also hate, to protect our 1st.

It's both. This isn't a question of "Belief". It is pure and simple Fact. It did happen, no Ifs, Ands, or Buts about it.

 

[OCGuy]

It's both. This isn't a question of "Belief". It is pure and simple Fact. It did happen, no Ifs, Ands, or Buts about it.

Huh? Now we are discussing if it happened versus being allowed to say it didnt?

You move the goalposts more than anyone. I thought I remembered you being a better debater.

 

[Infohawk]

Certainly many didn't know about it, but why does that matter? Seems even more important that the Holocaust be admitted to in that circumstance. They all supported the Regime, they all shared the Guilt of what the Regime did.

That's how I feel about people that are members of dangerous superstitions. [/scmloz mode] you are bigoted against Germans since if one of them supported the nazis you said they all do![/scmloz mode]

 

[sandorski]

Huh? No we are discussing if it happened versus being allowed to say it didnt?

You move the goalposts more than anyone. I thought I remembered you being a better debater.

I have not moved any Goal posts. It did happen, end of discussion.

 

[sandorski]

That's how I feel about people that are members of dangerous superstitions. [/scmloz mode] you are bigoted against Germans since if one of them supported the nazis you said they all do![/scmloz mode]

They did. The Nazis were Democratically Elected. Germans enthusiastically supported Hitler and the War. They were as Guilty as the Nazi's themselves.

 

[Infohawk]

They did. The Nazis were Democratically Elected. Germans enthusiastically supported Hitler and the War. They were as Guilty as the Nazi's themselves.

[irate left winger mode] Not even by a majority. How dare you judge all Germans by the actions of a few of them!!!! You must be a bigot!!!! Germans had nothing to do with the Nazis [irate left winger mode]

 

[sandorski]

[irate left winger mode] Not even by a majority. How dare you judge all Germans by the actions of a few of them!!!! You must be a bigot!!!! Germans had nothing to do with the Nazis [irate left winger mode]

Fail

 

[Infohawk]

Fail

LOL. Looks like you don't have any arguments left. TKO. Which part do you disagree with? The fact that most Germans never voted for Hitler? Or the fact that you've been caught in double standard. On the one hand you condemn Germans some of them voted for Hitler. On the other you cry bigot when someone suggests Muslims are responsible for belonging to a religion that creates more terrorists than any others?

 

[sandorski]

LOL. Looks like you don't have any arguments left. TKO. Which part do you disagree with? The fact that most Germans never voted for Hitler? Or the fact that you've been caught in double standard. On the one hand you condemn Germans some of them voted for Hitler. On the other you cry bigot when someone suggests Muslims are responsible for belonging to a religion that creates more terrorists than any others?

No Double standard. If you can't see the difference between a Nation where the Government was supported by the population for a decade and committed the vilest Genocide in History and 19 Men committing an act on one day that came from one isolated Terrorist group with only a vague tie to a billion others. Then I can't help you.

 

[Phokus]

No Double standard. If you can't see the difference between a Nation where the Government was supported by the population for a decade and committed the vilest Genocide in History and 19 Men committing an act on one day that came from one isolated Terrorist group with only a vague tie to a billion others. Then I can't help you.

What the fuck, so should it be illegal for people to publicly deny that American Slavery happened or deny that America caused genocide amongst Native Americans? Your argument is weak.

 

[sandorski]

What the fuck, so should it be illegal for people to publicly deny that American Slavery happened or deny that America caused genocide amongst Native Americans? Your argument is weak.

It was made Illegal in Germany for a reason. This is a very particular Case. I'm not arguing that we need to now scour History and start making Laws about this or that. I'm arguing that it's reasonable for Germany and other European Nations to choose to make a Law regarding this particular issue.

This was a horrible Atrocity. People were Charged, Jailed, and executed because of their association with it.