Dutch Muslim group fined over Holocaust cartoon

[chucky2]

There are KKK marches, black panther marches, etc. As long as they get proper permission to march, they can march.

I do think someone not Christian could become president...look at the POTUS we have now, he's a member of a racist church for 20 years! I think someone running that said they believed in a higher power, but, didn't identify with any organized religion and didn't begrude anyone that did, would do just fine with the majority of Americans, as long as they were upfront and sincere about it.

Personally I think writing to call into question the Holocaust so as to prove that that's equal to a cartoon depicting Mohammad is basically....F'ing stupid. The Holocaust undeniably happened, and is basically a current event in the span of history. The other is at best some guy who lived a long time ago....WhoTF knows if he was a real prophet sent from a higher power or not.

Organized Religion people are lulz.....

Chuck

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

You're quite right that the analogy drawn by the OP is poor. However, there is no good reason to criminalize denying the Holocaust. It's more than likely counter-productive.

- wolf

When you are a German in Germany i'm sure you get to vote on that too.

I think it's there for a very good reason, it's not illegal in the UK BTW.

 

[chucky2]

Why criminalize denying it though? What does me saying the Holocaust never happened hurt anyone?

Just make sure not to distort, under-emphasize, or over-emphasize, the event when teaching history in the schools. I just don't see the need to have a law about it...that event is not special in respect to any other majorly recorded event...

Chuck

 

[woolfe9999]

When you are a German in Germany i'm sure you get to vote on that too.

I think it's there for a very good reason, it's not illegal in the UK BTW.

I don't have a vote on it, just an opinion. I have opinions about the suppression of speech in other nations as well, Iran for example, all of which I'm perfectly entitled to.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the UK there are incitement laws which are much broader than U.S. incitement laws and they may include certain expressions of HD. It isn't as strict as in Germany, but stricter than the U.S.

- wolf

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

There are KKK marches, black panther marches, etc. As long as the get proper permission to march, they can march.

I do think someone not Christian could become president...look at the POTUS we have now, he's a member of a racist church for 20 years! I think someone running that said they believed in a higher power, but, didn't identify with any organized religion and didn't begrude anyone that did, would do just fine with the majority of Americans, as long as they were upfront and sincere about it.

Personally I think writing to call into question the Holocaust so as to prove that that's equal to a cartoon depicting Mohammad is basically....F'ing stupid. The Holocaust undeniably happened, and is basically a current event in the span of history. The other is at best some guy who lived a long time ago....WhoTF knows if he was a real prophet sent from a higher power or not.

Organized Religion people are lulz.....

Chuck

We basically agree, but i don't think either you or me actually appreciate the national guilt of those nations that forbid the denial of the Holocaust.

Being a Jew by heritage, i do understand a lot of the heritage issues by a lot of people with dual citisenships and their ongoing struggle but that's mostly in "new" Europe where the hatred of Jews is not something that is completely gone, especially not in the more isolated villages.

I think it's something that some people feel should not be swept under the rug and that is why the laws exist to this day. With a bit of fortune we'll see them gone along with the hatred of Jews within if not our then our childrens lifetime.

 

[StageLeft]

Well, the cartoons are of a historical religious figure, there is no problem with making fun of Jesus or Moses either, but the Holocaust is problematic for Europeans.

It's in recent memory and there are laws preventing the denial of it still, sure, there shouldn't have to be but there are and from what i gather (mostly because of the influx of Muslim immigrants) it's needed to this day.

Jews are a very small minority in todays Europe and hated by almost all newcomers not to mention almost all Eastern Europeans.

Then it seems to me the problem is not the denying of the holocaust (for the record it should be deniable. You should be able to say it never happened and a mystical fairy stole the jews away, if you're crazy it shouldn't be illegal to say crazy things that otherwise cause no harm). The problem may be allowing an influx of millions of people with whom your culture does not agree.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I don't have a vote on it, just an opinion. I have opinions about the suppression of speech in other nations as well, Iran for example, all of which I'm perfectly entitled to.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the UK there are incitement laws which are much broader than U.S. incitement laws and they may include certain expressions of HD. It isn't as strict as in Germany, but stricter than the U.S.

- wolf

You'll need to get more specific than that for me to even be able to respond, i don't know all that much about US law since i'm not a US citisen nor do i have more than basic understanding of the US legal system.

And yes, you are entitled to your opinions as an outsider, i do realise that i made it sound as if you didn't, my bad, i didn't mean it that way.

Ironic thing though, in Germany you could vote against a law, you are free to have your opinions on Iran in Germany or the US, but in Iran, you are not able to vote against a law or have any opposing opinions.

I think you picked a fucked up example there, one could think that you were comparing Germany and Iran, next time, say Austrailia, no one cares about Australia.

 

[chucky2]

Well then, maybe if the public sentiments are that bad, having such laws as a 'necessary evil' are warranted. In the US, you'll run into an average person who doesnt like Jews, but, not to the extent they'd throw them in an oven....just no laws needed like that here.

Maybe in another 80 years, they'll be able to revisit needing laws like that as the population will be sufficiently institutionalized to understand and accept their ancestors past.

I'm more of someone that would rather not live in the past, the future is here and now, lets do what's best going forward. To keep bringing up the Holocaust, except when someone brings it up to deny it, is to me cheapening it. It's like people in Israel today bring up the Holocaust to the people of today in the Palestinian areas as a reason the people in Israel need to be there and the people in the Palestinian areas need to be somewhere else: That's nice and all, but, that was then, and this is now.....ya need to find a better reason.

The other thing I'd add on this is that this group got fined and holds that up as a sign of hypocrisy....it's not. Hypocrisy would be Jews all over the world rioting, declaring fatwa's against the publisher and cartoonist, etc. Them trying to trump this up is even more lame and shows them in even more poor light....

Chuck

 

[sandorski]

Yes, it is a denial of Free Speech. However, I support the Europeans on this since it's intended to own up to a dark period in History and to ensure it never happens again. All Freedoms have limits, those limits just need to be reasonable. For Europe the Holocaust is a reasonable limit.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Then it seems to me the problem is not the denying of the holocaust (for the record it should be deniable. You should be able to say it never happened and a mystical fairy stole the jews away, if you're crazy it shouldn't be illegal to say crazy things that otherwise cause no harm). The problem may be allowing an influx of millions of people with whom your culture does not agree.

Yeah, i know, we should put them in concentration camps or something...

 

[chucky2]

I'd say just put them in their own countries....

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Yes, it is a denial of Free Speech. However, I support the Europeans on this since it's intended to own up to a dark period in History and to ensure it never happens again. All Freedoms have limits, those limits just need to be reasonable. For Europe the Holocaust is a reasonable limit.

Much like you Canadians and the US us Brits never partook in any of the Holocaust issues so we probably have a bit of a problem understanding this issue but i think you made it clearer than i possibly could.

Good job.

 

[woolfe9999]

You'll need to get more specific than that for me to even be able to respond, i don't know all that much about US law since i'm not a US citisen nor do i have more than basic understanding of the US legal system.

And yes, you are entitled to your opinions as an outsider, i do realise that i made it sound as if you didn't, my bad, i didn't mean it that way.

Ironic thing though, in Germany you could vote against a law, you are free to have your opinions on Iran in Germany or the US, but in Iran, you are not able to vote against a law or have any opposing opinions.

I think you picked a fucked up example there, one could think that you were comparing Germany and Iran, next time, say Austrailia, no one cares about Australia.

No, it's much worse in Iran than in Germany. Iran doesn't even have anything remotely resembling a free press.

In the U.S., "incitement" is a crime when it produces a "clear and present danger" of injury or death. Basically, you can make all manner of ethnically inflammatory statements so long as you do not directly call for violence against a particular ethnic group, which is then taken seriously and acted upon. My understanding is that in the UK extremely inflammatory comments alone are enough, and HD can constitute such statements in some cases.

Aside from the impingement on free speech, the trouble with criminalizing HD is it just gives the anti-semites an excuse to decry the so-called mythical power of the Jews. Such is their power than even a small minority can co-opt these governments to enact laws to protect their narrow interests, or so the story goes.

- wolf

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I'd say just put them in their own countries....

Too late, we already bombed the sheit out of their nations.

 

[chucky2]

Not really....

 

[OCGuy]

Yes, it is a denial of Free Speech. However, I support the Europeans on this since it's intended to own up to a dark period in History and to ensure it never happens again. All Freedoms have limits, those limits just need to be reasonable. For Europe the Holocaust is a reasonable limit.

You think it is OK to outlaw an idea?

You canuks are as whacky as the Euros.

 

[sandorski]

You think it is OK to outlaw an idea?

You canuks are as whacky as the Euros.

It's not an "Idea", it a Historical Fact. The Europeans know what they are capable of, why condemn them for trying to avoid repeating it?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

No, it's much worse in Iran than in Germany. Iran doesn't even have anything remotely resembling a free press.

In the U.S., "incitement" is a crime when it produces a "clear and present danger" of injury or death. Basically, you can make all manner of ethnically inflammatory statements so long as you do not directly call for violence against a particular ethnic group, which is then taken seriously and acted upon. My understanding is that in the UK extremely inflammatory comments alone are enough, and HD can constitute such statements in some cases.

Aside from the impingement on free speech, the trouble with criminalizing HD is it just gives the anti-semites an excuse to decry the so-called mythical power of the Jews. Such is their power than even a small minority can co-opt these governments to enact laws to protect their narrow interests, or so the story goes.

- wolf

Well you are correct about that, we do have laws against that in some cases, these laws are subject to special circumstance though and not general. Yeah, our legal system is ... wierd for those not raised in it i guess.

We don't have much problems with anti-semites in the UK, our biggest problem is Indians living with caste and honor culture slaughtering people for going against their honor system, mostly just their own wifes and daughters but sometimes others.

Well that and Kurds doing the same thing...

Anti semitism hasn't been a problem in the UK since the 50's.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Not really....

You do realise that all but a couple who have fled every single nation the US and the UK went to war with since the 50's went to Europe? I remember reading that one small town in Sweden (can't remember the name) of less than 30K inhabitants took in more refugees from Iraq than the total of North America and there were tens of millions who fled the war.

It's not like the UK and US has done much to ease the steady stream of refugees to mainland Europe from the areas we have attacked in the last 6 decades.

Just Kosovo and Bosnia led to an influx of Muslims in Denmark (maybe it was Finland, it was a while ago and i was kinda busy in Sarajevo) increasing the rate of Muslims about 16X what it was before and this was before the mass movement from Afghanistan and Iraq.

We suck at taking care of civilians, i can say that out loud without thinking twice about it because it's not my fucking job but we shouldn't blame mainland Europe for doing the best they can with what we deliver to them.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

It's not an "Idea", it a Historical Fact. The Europeans know what they are capable of, why condemn them for trying to avoid repeating it?

True, let's not forget the genocide that created the US and Canada, also Europeans.

 

[OCGuy]

It's not an "Idea", it a Historical Fact. The Europeans know what they are capable of, why condemn them for trying to avoid repeating it?

Knowing that the victor writes the history, you think it should be OK for the government to tell you what you can and cant believe?

Yikes...

 

[Patranus]

The funny thing is that when you travel to Europe you realizes that they are all racist.
Everyone hates everyone else for one reason or another.

 

[sandorski]

Knowing that the victor writes the history, you think it should be OK for the government to tell you what you can and cant believe?

Yikes...

Like I said, there are reasonable limits.

 

[OCGuy]

Like I said, there are reasonable limits.

I like the limit called: Government stays out of what I can and can't believe/think.

 

[piasabird]

Why do I get an image of an SS Officer with his finger in the ***?

Is that how you spell earthen damn or it is a freudian slip?