(DSOG via MaxPC) Nvidia Finally Officially Speaks About AMD’s Mantle

[Noctifer616]

It's the same reason why AMD doesn't support Cuda! These are proprietary api's controlled by one's competitors! For nVidia to spend resources on Mantle would be insane!

Why would they support CUDA when OpenCL works on all AMD hardware (CUDA is GPU only)? And OpenCL also supports HSA (which AMD is betting on).

 

[Atreidin]

Nope, but I bet they would license it for the right price.

On the other hand AMD isn't going to let NV "support" Mantle. They might make it available with an SDK, but AMD will support Mantle.

Yeah sure, the right price being a controlling interest of AMD stock.

 

[NTMBK]

Why would they support CUDA when OpenCL works on all AMD hardware (CUDA is GPU only)? And OpenCL also supports HSA (which AMD is betting on).

Because CUDA is much easier to actually write software for and has a much better developer ecosystem- NVidia has some excellent software tools. Meanwhile you still can't even get a HSA compiler.

 

[Dribble]

If AMD offers and Nvidia chooses to decline, then it's open.

That's not "open" - it's still owned by AMD. Open would require it to not belong only to AMD, but to belong to all the relevant parties (Intel, AMD and Nvidia) who would co-develop a standard together that works for all of them. This is a standard developed by AMD for AMD with no concern for anyone else. It is only designed to work on AMD cards.

Why on earth would anyone else consider using it? It's not like AMD are Intel and Mantle is a market leader - it only works on a few % of most developers user base, and it's about to get supplanted by the much closer to open (but still proprietary to MS) DX 12.

 

[f1sherman]

Because CUDA is much easier to actually write software for and has a much better developer ecosystem- NVidia has some excellent software tools. Meanwhile you still can't even get a HSA compiler.

AMD getting/asking CUDA license is as probable as Nvidia asking/getting Mantle license.
None of the above possibilities is connected with reality.

So AMD saying 6 months from now, and when it's "ready", is truly academic and laughable.

They couldn't get NV/Intel onboard if they gave them total and unwavering support and all their code YESTERDAY, let alone when it's "ready"

 

[Noctifer616]

Why on earth would anyone else consider using it? It's not like AMD are Intel and Mantle is a market leader - it only works on a few % of most developers user base, and it's about to get supplanted by the much closer to open (but still proprietary to MS) DX 12.

And why exactly would anyone bother with DX when MS has proven that they don't care about the state of the graphics industry? No real updates in years, over a decade with no multythreading support, ignoring developers for years who asked for more control over what they do.

If Nvidia and Intel would jump on Mantle, do you honestly think the big players in the industry would still support DX?

 

[Mand]

If Nvidia and Intel would jump on Mantle, do you honestly think the big players in the industry would still support DX?

No, they wouldn't, but Nvidia and Intel are not going to jump on Mantle as long as it is in AMD's sole control.

 

[Noctifer616]

No, they wouldn't, but Nvidia and Intel are not going to jump on Mantle as long as it is in AMD's sole control.

And who exactly should control it? Both MS and Khronos Group demonstrate how a 3rd party with no stake in the GPU business is incapable of properly taking care of the API.

 

[f1sherman]

And why exactly would anyone bother with DX when MS has proven that they don't care about the state of the graphics industry? No real updates in years, over a decade with no multythreading support, ignoring developers for years who asked for more control over what they do.

If Nvidia and Intel would jump on Mantle, do you honestly think the big players in the industry would still support DX?

Why bother with such outcomes when they are highly unlikely.

Besides all this crying over state of DX is a little bit too much.
Are we really in that bad shape today? OpenGL/Glide, DirectX 7/8, 25 fps average on UT were better?
DirectX has brought years of stability and prosperity IMHO.

It's infinitely easy to support one or two hardware configuration. But AMD is already slipping with GCN 1.0 support and DX in Mantle games is suffering.
Imagine the outcome, 10 years from now, if Mantle had to support hundreds of hw/configuration and thousands of SKUs. DX11 would be a warm and safe place to be

 

[Noctifer616]

Why bother with such outcomes when they are highly unlikely.

Besides all this crying over state of DX is a little bit too much.
Are we really in that bad shape today? OpenGL/Glide, DirectX 7/8, 25 fps average on UT were better?
DirectX has brought years of stability and prosperity IMHO.

It's infinitely easy to support one or two hardware configuration. But AMD is already slipping with GCN 1.0 support and DX in Mantle games is suffering.
Imagine the outcome, 10 years from now, if Mantle had to support hundreds of hw/configuration and thousands of SKUs. DX11 would be a warm and safe place to be

Legacy support is fine, no one says Mantle won't have legacy support, but at one point you have to stop and start with a clean slate.

 

[ShintaiDK]

And who exactly should control it? Both MS and Khronos Group demonstrate how a 3rd party with no stake in the GPU business is incapable of properly taking care of the API.

While they do work slow, specially Khronos. You simply cant take a shortcut and let a single GPU company set the standard. It would simply destroy the economics in game creation and the like. Remember, sofar AMD had to sponsor every single Mantle game despite the benefits. Now insert the extreme case where there is no DX or OpenGL. You would not only end up with alot less games. You would also end up with games like the consoles, that is exclusive to one manufactor. Most of us can also remember the horror the early days was. Specially when a game was created for Glide.

The reason why it takes so long is exactly due to a unified standard that everyone can agree on and comply to.

 

[Mand]

The reason why it takes so long is exactly due to a unified standard that everyone can agree on and comply to.

This. There is no shortcut possible.

 

[Noctifer616]

You would also end up with games like the consoles, that is exclusive to one manufactor.

Sorry, but so far no one said (Intel, Nvidia, AMD) that Mantle can't work on hardware that isn't GCN.

Intel showed interest in Mantle for whatever reason, Nvidia said they don't want to support Mantle, they go with DX 12, but neither said it can't work on their current hardware.

Now, you argument might have had some merit to it at launch, but since then MS announced DX 12 which is supposed to offer the same benefits as Mantle but manages to do so on a wider range of hardware. If DX12 can work on many graphics architectures, why wouldn't Mantle?

 

[n0x1ous]

If DX12 can work on many graphics architectures, why wouldn't Mantle?

AMD have said that Mantle will be lower level than DX12 and exposes functions in GCN that only Mantle can take advantage of. They gave that a reason why Mantle will still exist after DX12.

So that is why DX12 can work on many architectures and Mantle probably cannot.

 

[monstercameron]

AMD have said that Mantle will be lower level than DX12 and exposes functions in GCN that only Mantle can take advantage of. They gave that a reason why Mantle will still exist after DX12.

So that is why DX12 can work on many architectures and Mantle probably cannot.

this sentiment makes no sense. If it only supports GCN then what happens to GCN[Next], will AMD just throw out support for all those previous games? Come on guys, AMD is incompetent not stupid, and its called a HAL [hardware abstraction layer].

 

[ShintaiDK]

If DX12 can work on many graphics architectures, why wouldn't Mantle?

For the same reason that CUDA doesnt work on non nVidia for example. While DirectCompute and OpenCL does.

 

[n0x1ous]

this sentiments makes no sense. If it only supports GCN then what happens to GCN[Next], will AMD just throw out support for all those previous games? Come on guys, AMD is incompetent not stupid, and its called a HAL [hardware abstraction layer].

Of course they can modify and evolve it for future architectures, but AMD THEMSELVES said its lower level/less abstraction than DX12. They have worked on both so they would know.

By its very nature, it would be LESS flexible than DX12 according to AMD's own statements.

 

[ShintaiDK]

this sentiments makes no sense. If it only supports GCN then what happens to GCN[Next], will AMD just throw out support for all those previous games? Come on guys, AMD is incompetent not stupid, and its called a HAL [hardware abstraction layer].

AMD have already stated that DX is the escape goat for lack of future support. Do you really think AMD would tie themselves to Mantle in the event they got a better non Mantle supporting uarch in the future? Even AMD isnt that stupid.

Mantle was an attempt to sell more cards and more AMD CPUs. None of those worked out.

 

[Enigmoid]

Given the state of AMD's DX performance compared to Nvidia, does anyone think that DX12 + Nvidia could match or exceed mantle?

 

[ShintaiDK]

Given the state of AMD's DX performance compared to Nvidia, does anyone think that DX12 + Nvidia could match or exceed mantle?

It completely depends on how their DX12 drivers end up. One can only hope they dont mess up like they did with DX11.

They have shown they really like DX12.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Of course they can modify and evolve it for future architectures, but AMD THEMSELVES said its lower level/less abstraction than DX12. They have worked on both so they would know.

By its very nature, it would be LESS flexible than DX12 according to AMD's own statements.

Wouldn't it be more flexible because they don't have to wait for Microsoft to update features.

 

[PPB]

It completely depends on how their DX12 drivers end up. One can only hope they dont mess up like they did with DX11.

They have shown they really like DX12.

How couldnt they like DX12 if it will carbon-copy most of Mantle's feature set?

 

[dacostafilipe]

AMD have said that Mantle will be lower level than DX12 and exposes functions in GCN that only Mantle can take advantage of. They gave that a reason why Mantle will still exist after DX12.

So that is why DX12 can work on many architectures and Mantle probably cannot.

Hudy said that about a possible Mantle 2.0, not the actual Mantle.

The reason behind it is that even if Mantle does not get used by game devs after DX12, they can still use it for more specific areas, for example gaming machines.

 

[f1sherman]

How couldnt they like DX12 if it will carbon-copy most of Mantle's feature set?

Then it should have been a piece of cake to get it running for GDC, no?
But instead...

WRUM WRUM

 

[SirPauly]

You think NVidia would let AMD support CUDA? Hahahahahahaha

Though it has been submitted to no outside standards body, it is in fact completely free to download the specs and write CUDA apps, and even completely free to write a CUDA driver to allow your company’s hardware (CPU, GPU, whatever) to run apps written in the CUDA environment.

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/82264-why-wont-ati-support-cuda-and-physx