(DSOG via MaxPC) Nvidia Finally Officially Speaks About AMD’s Mantle

[Leadbox]

Seems Intel just called AMDs bluff. AMD was busy making up excuses why they couldnt see Mantle source.

I doubt Mantle got a future after DX12. Its not really worth sponsoring game after game when its suddenly "free".

DX12 is coming to save us all, just like dx 11 did before it.When does the next round of consoles come round? 2017-2018?No matter, we'll have dx12 next year, it will save the day :awe:

 

[Noctifer616]

If AMD did state what specific hardware features were needed. Then I assume you linked the wrong article.

Unified memory, SIMD, multi-way vector processing, dynamic scheduling, thread-level parallelism, compiler "independence"

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18600973&page=5

 

[ShintaiDK]

Unified memory, SIMD, multi-way vector processing, dynamic scheduling, thread-level parallelism, compiler "independence"

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18600973&page=5

VLIW4 and VLIW5 are SIMD as well. So that part is out. And when you start to use "" for hardware specific features. Then I assume its some marketing employee that is trying to translate something.

Also he links to this blog:
http://www.oxidegames.com/2014/05/21/next-generation-graphics-apis/

And it even underlines that Mantle only works on hardware that functions like GCN.

 

[3DVagabond]

Ha, that's rich. That's a marketing scam, pure and simple. Not only does saying "hey you can make a driver too!" not make it open, not even all of AMD's own hardware can run Mantle. It requires GCN. If it requires GCN...wait for it...nobody else can use it. Unless AMD specifically changes Mantle to allow it. But...again...wait for it...if they specifically change Mantle to allow someone else to use it, they could theoretically change it back and screw a competitor over. Nvidia can't take that risk, especially when there's literally zero reward given DX12.

They may have said it, to get people like you to believe that AMD is the white knight of the graphics hardware world, and it seems to have worked. It has no basis in reality.

Mantle is not open, and it does not make a company evil to refuse to put its own products at the mercy of a direct competitor.

In a parallel universe, if Mantle had come out and Microsoft just threw up its hands and said "Guess what guys, no more DX!" then yeah, Mantle might have supplanted it and become an open standard. But it's not going to do that, because AMD is choosing to not make it open. And because AMD is exerting full control, their competitors will not use it. Period.

Again, show me where nVidia said anything that you just have as their reason for not using Mantle, or stop with the straw man arguments.

Do you have any comment about anything nVidia actually said? Because, that is what this thread is about. It's about nVidia's official stance on Mantle.

 

[Despoiler]

Also he links to this blog:
http://www.oxidegames.com/2014/05/21/next-generation-graphics-apis/

And it even underlines that Mantle only works on hardware that functions like GCN.

Where in that blog does it say what you are claiming?

 

[3DVagabond]

Even in some fantasy land where it DID work on non GCN hardware,

We have had people who work with Mantle state that there is nothing that makes Mantle inherently GCN only, not even nVidia.

how the hell is an open standard controlled by one company? True open standards are consortium based. All members are free to input their own enhancements and additions.

That's OpenGL. If you want an open standard there it is. Mantle doesn't interfere with OpenGL or stop anyone from using it.

Will AMD do this? They said, NO, they will not.

AMD did say if someone had a feature they wanted to add they could request it. Whether it gets added would be AMD's decision, but that's exactly how DX works now.

So it would be most interesting if Mantle doesn't work on non AMD GCN hardware, that by some weird fantasy land magic that it will work on competing non GCN hardware. How?

The IHV would write a Mantle driver for their hardware. That's how.

For a 0% performance increase?

You are making this up. There is no evidence that Mantle will only improve performance for AMD.

Intel and NV can't have any input into changes in Mantle? And anyone acts surprised that NV isn't interested. Give me a break. Not having a consortium of members that can modify the API - That by definition is not open. Marketing scam, like you said.

AMD has said people can request features be added. It will be open for everyone to use with no licensing if it becomes part of Mantle. Again though, nVidia never said this isn't why they aren't going to use Mantle. They use DX and that's exactly how DX works. msft controls it, not the IHV's and everyone uses it. Biggest differences is, with Mantle, the source will be available for everyone. It'll be transparent and there won't be any way anyone can pull shens to disadvantage a particular IHV.

Besides which, it doesn't even matter. On high end hardware the differences are usually not astounding.

FUD. In GPU limited circumstances the difference isn't a lot, but that's not the same as high end. We have seen substantial gains with Crossfire stups, for example.

NV wanted to create their own to the metal API, they could. But DX12 will be the standard for Windows based games, with all parties being able to have INPUT in changes and enhancements. Mantle will not allow this. This is the key difference. And it doesn't even matter. If NV wanted, they could simply make their own "to the metal" API, but they haven't.

nVidia writing their own API isn't suggested anywhere in the article for a reason they won't use Mantle. DX is as closed as it gets. That was the biggest complaint by the ISV's. They've suggested changes for years and msft wasn't interested. The only party that controls what features get added to DX, and more importantly when, is msft.

Do you have anything to post that actually addresses something in the article? We've been over everything you've posted here in prior Mantle threads. It doesn't belong here unless nVidia actually voices these concerns as reasons for not adopting Mantle.

 

[f1sherman]

I thought that the tone from NV guys was highly condescending and even disrespectful towards AMD.

But then again what is to expect after AMD & Huddy have gone on witch-hunt:

• we have no proof whatsoever, but what if NV had yadayadayada
• it has RAM therefore it introduces lag (g-sync)
• give us source code for your entire base, else you are hindering gamers/developers

I find it interesting that Rev knows very little about Mantle, so Tom Peterson had to jump in to correct him.
Gameworks top-guy knowing little about competition's efforts is telling about NV's corporate spirit of self-centeredness.

All in all not very subtle response from NV, but not not openly hostile like AMD's PR.

 

[bononos]

......
AMD has said people can request features be added. It will be open for everyone to use with no licensing if it becomes part of Mantle. Again though, nVidia never said this isn't why they aren't going to use Mantle. They use DX and that's exactly how DX works. msft controls it, not the IHV's and everyone uses it. Biggest differences is, with Mantle, the source will be available for everyone. It'll be transparent and there won't be any way anyone can pull shens to disadvantage a particular IHV.
.....

Didn't Intel ask for some access to Mantel(as an 'experiment' in their own words) but got rebuffed? The excuse given was that was still in beta. Does the public/vendors have access to Mantle now?

I doubt that other vendors will ever get timely access to AMD's spec and they will always be at least 1 step behind performance and functionality improvements in newer Mantle versions using the 'still in beta' excuse.

 

[monstercameron]

I thought that the tone from NV guys was highly condescending and even disrespectful towards AMD.

But then again what is to expect after AMD & Huddy have gone on witch-hunt:

• we have no proof whatsoever, but what if NV had yadayadayada
• it has RAM therefore it introduces lag (g-sync)
• give us source code for your entire base, else you are hindering gamers/developers

I find it interesting that Rev knows very little about Mantle, so Tom Peterson had to jump in to correct him.
Gameworks top-guy knowing little about competition's efforts is telling about NV's corporate spirit of self-centeredness.

All in all not very subtle response from NV, but not not openly hostile like AMD's PR.

openly hostile? maybe not but condescending and passive aggressive.

 

[f1sherman]

First, I was not really impressed by the nVidia guys. They basically said nothing except that they are not going to use or say anything good about mantle. Duh, it is an api developed by their arch rival. What do you expect them to say: "Mantle is great, I wish we had developed it"?

On the other hand, all the claims about the openness of mantle are contradictory at best. First lets look at the current situation, not some hypothetical future scenario which has not taken place yet. Is mantle open now, has AMD released the source code? No. Apparently Intel even asked for the code and was denied. I have no problem with this, because mantle was developed by AMD, so why should they release it to Intel. What I have a problem with is with the claims of openness.

But, AMD claims, it is not ready, we cant release the code until it is ready. Why not? It is "ready" enough to have been implemented in BF4 six months ago, and subsequently for Plants vs Zombies (strange) and Thief. And AMD is bragging up how many developers are on board and how many games using mantle are in development. Again, I have no problem with AMD trying to get mantle implemented in a many games as possible, but that hardly is consistent with the claim that mantle is not "complete" enough to be utilized.

If AMD really wants mantle to be "open" they should have released the code already so that competitors could look at it and if interested, start developing drivers to utilize it, which obviously would have to be modified later, but at least some of the work would have been done already. So mantle at this point in time, is a proprietary API that runs on GCN hardware only, gives a value add to AMD dgpus, and makes AMD cpus somewhat more competitive. Anything more is just PR.

This is all so self-evident that I ccb to type it, but I'm glad someone did.

Mantle "not ready"?
Not ready even for possible partners to take a peek? ...... riiight.

I am not sure if Intel had called AMD bluff (like someone here mentioned).
But I'm 99% positive that AMD knew Intel (same like NV) has no serious intentions of supporting/implementing Mantle.

That's why they went with:

Not ready yet. Get back to us in 6 months!

Something else...
Nvidia has 300 people working on Gameworks alone.
If AMD had similar sized team working on Mantle, and knowing that it takes 2*man*months to port game to Mantle, how many games they could port to Mantle in 2-6 months?

300-900 Mantle games depending on working hours/day AMIRITE?
But instead we get 4 games/year. WTH is going on here. Fastest growing API in history?!

This has become a war of resources.
If AMD had the best, the brightest and the most talented, they would still fought an uphill battle.

 

[f1sherman]

openly hostile? maybe not but condescending and passive aggressive.

What did they call AMD... the component guy. The guy who builds components.
But hey... It's a perfectly viable strategy, and maybe it works for them. But that's not who we are.

Open Physics, Bullet. Here you go folks, we are not investing any further, but you should use it.

And so on...

 

[3DVagabond]

To the people who are claiming Mantle is open:

How quickly will AMD update Mantle to support the new features from Nvidia cards?

Considering nVidia has stated they aren't going to use Mantle?

 

[3DVagabond]

This is called trying to have your cake and eating it too. You cant have it your way all the time boys. Mantle is proprietary but all those thrashing Nvidia proprietary features for forever and a month of Sundays now cannot have anyone believing that AMD would actually commit the same "sin". Or try their best to somehow convince us all that Mantle is not proprietary. Its not happening dudes. Smarter people here than you believe. I dont know why you thought the contrary.

nVidia proprietary features are closed and locked to nVidia hardware. They require licensing. AMD proprietary features are not. They release the source and allow anyone to use it without licensing.

For the umpteenth time, nVidia never said anything about Mantle being proprietary as their reason for not using it. I'll quote again what was actually said.

“We don’t know much about Mantle, we are not part of Mantle. And clearly if they see value there they should go for it. And if they can convince game developers to go for it, go for it. It’s not an Nvidia thing. The key thing is to develop great technologies that deliver benefits to gamers. Now in the case of Mantle it’s not so clear to me that there is a lot of obvious benefits there.”

Then he says...
“DX12 is coming and a lot of the features, the benefits of having a lower level API (the extra calls and stuff), it’s going to be in DX12.”

So they are going to wait for DX12, which as we all know is proprietary to msft. So, it doesn't seem proprietary bothers nVidia at all. It's a straw man.

 

[3DVagabond]

Seriously? That's the extent of your claim?

Yes, it does ==. AMD has full control. AMD has full discretion over what's in Mantle. If Nvidia comes up with a new piece of tech, they can't integrate it with Mantle if AMD has full control.

That's not open.

It's the same with DX.

 

[Keysplayr]

That's a load and a half. ^ two posts up. I'm having trouble understanding why you're trying to "sell" this so hard? I mean just why?
It's proprietary. You say it isn't. Anyone can see it is, well, except the few pushing it soooo hard here including yourself.
You're ignoring all of the really excellent points being brought up and laying strawmen everywhere giving answers, "the umpteenth", to things that were never said by anyone. It's like a magic show. Distraction. Misdirection. Etc.

 

[monstercameron]

It's the same with DX.

why do you even try?

In anycase, it is AMDs fault mantle in in this predicament. They should have preempted some of these issues [more like talking points]. Now they have fud working against them [as they usually do]. The secretive thing just aint working for their image.

 

[Keysplayr]

why do you even try?

In anycase, it is AMDs fault mantle in in this predicament. They should have preempted some of these issues [more like talking points]. Now they have fud working against them [as they usually do]. The secretive thing just aint working for their image.

Exactly what I'm asking.

And I read "secretive" as it's probably just another project they aren't going to follow through with and finish. Like Open Physics. Like Stream. Like FreeSync. I'm sure there are others that can add to the list.

 

[3DVagabond]

Didn't Intel ask for some access to Mantel(as an 'experiment' in their own words) but got rebuffed? The excuse given was that was still in beta. Does the public/vendors have access to Mantle now?

I doubt that other vendors will ever get timely access to AMD's spec and they will always be at least 1 step behind performance and functionality improvements in newer Mantle versions using the 'still in beta' excuse.

This has been answered multiple times. You can read any thread that the subject is brought up for your answer.

Where did nVidia say this was their concern about Mantle? Read up a couple of posts and you will see what they actually said. Your points/concerns aren't there.

 

[3DVagabond]

That's a load and a half. ^ two posts up. I'm having trouble understanding why you're trying to "sell" this so hard? I mean just why?
It's proprietary. You say it isn't. Anyone can see it is, well, except the few pushing it soooo hard here including yourself.
You're ignoring all of the really excellent points being brought up and laying strawmen everywhere giving answers, "the umpteenth", to things that were never said by anyone. It's like a magic show. Distraction. Misdirection. Etc.

What am I selling? When did I say it wasn't proprietary? I'm calling straw man because the thread is about nVidia's official stance on Mantle. Do I need to quote again what nVidia said? Because they didn't say anything about proprietary or AMD taking advantage of their position as being the reasons. None of the arguments being presented here have come from nVidia.

 

[3DVagabond]

Exactly what I'm asking.

And I read "secretive" as it's probably just another project they aren't going to follow through with and finish. Like Open Physics. Like Stream. Like FreeSync. I'm sure there are others that can add to the list.

Completely off topic.

 

[Keysplayr]

What am I selling? When did I say it wasn't proprietary? I'm calling straw man because the thread is about nVidia's official stance on Mantle. Do I need to quote again what nVidia said? Because they didn't say anything about proprietary or AMD taking advantage of their position as being the reasons. None of the arguments being presented here have come from nVidia.

Then lets break this down to it's simplest form shall we?
No more of this, "I never said" or "I didn't say" garbage.

What is being argued in your view?

 

[AnandThenMan]

Then lets break this down to it's simplest form shall we?

How about we discuss what Nvidia said, you know the thread subject.

...BTW where did this idea come from that Mantle is open source? It's never been, never announced as being, never intended to be.

 

[3DVagabond]

Then lets break this down to it's simplest form shall we?
No more of this, "I never said" or "I didn't say" garbage.

What is being argued in your view?

So apparently you realize I never said anything you claimed I did.

The thread is about nVidia's official stance on Mantle. Why don't we just stick to that?
I'll quote it again:

“We don’t know much about Mantle, we are not part of Mantle. And clearly if they see value there they should go for it. And if they can convince game developers to go for it, go for it. It’s not an Nvidia thing. The key thing is to develop great technologies that deliver benefits to gamers. Now in the case of Mantle it’s not so clear to me that there is a lot of obvious benefits there.”
Then he says...

“DX12 is coming and a lot of the features, the benefits of having a lower level API (the extra calls and stuff), it’s going to be in DX12.”

So it appears that they are going to forego Mantle and wait for DX12. The interesting part is the claim, it’s not so clear to me that there is a lot of obvious benefits there, but them seeing these benefits for DX12.

 

[AnandThenMan]

I can't parse what the rep is saying by applying logic.

"Mantle has no obvious benefits, we don't know much about Mantle, DX12 being a lower level API has obvious benefits. "​

I think this guy is full of crap claiming not to know much about Mantle. If he actually doesn't know much of anything about it, then don't make yourself look stupid by saying it offers little benefit. He knows exactly what it's all about but to save corporate face won't say anything postiive but will do so when talking about DX12, which he knows full well seeks to do what Mantle does.

 

[desprado]

So apparently you realize I never said anything you claimed I did.

The thread is about nVidia's official stance on Mantle. Why don't we just stick to that?
I'll quote it again:


So it appears that they are going to forego Mantle and wait for DX12. The interesting part is the claim, it’s not so clear to me that there is a lot of obvious benefits there, but them seeing these benefits for DX12.

did u read ur post?It is enough trolling for AMD.