(DSOG via MaxPC) Nvidia Finally Officially Speaks About AMD’s Mantle

[blastingcap]

The article says the Nvidia engineer(s) said: "Now in the case of Mantle it’s not so clear to me that there is a lot of obvious benefits there."

But, tries to spin that as Nvidia contradicting itself when it seemingly touts the benefits of DX12, which would be, ah, similar if not the same as Mantle benefits.

I don't think that's a contradiction, because clearly there is no benefit to Nvidia when it comes to Mantle, so it's a perfectly true statement the Nvidia guy said. Mantle doesn't benefit *NVidia*, but there are benefits to the things in DX12 that are like Mantle. so it depends on what the definition of benefits is.

I'm on DX11 (Win 7) and have no interest in shelling out money just for DX12 (which will probably be Win 9 only). I would sooner go Linux and SteamOS than buy Windows 9 for DX12. I'm probably not alone.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Ha, that's rich. That's a marketing scam, pure and simple. Not only does saying "hey you can make a driver too!" not make it open, not even all of AMD's own hardware can run Mantle. It requires GCN. If it requires GCN...wait for it...nobody else can use it. Unless AMD specifically changes Mantle to allow it. But...again...wait for it...if they specifically change Mantle to allow someone else to use it, they could theoretically change it back and screw a competitor over. They can't take that risk.

They may have said it, to get people like you to believe that AMD is the white knight of the graphics hardware world, and it seems to have worked. It has no basis in reality.

Mantle is not open, and it does not make a company evil to refuse to put its own products at the mercy of a direct competitor.

Of course it would only run on AMD's own hardware, I doubt AMD even knows enough about Nvidia silicon at the level the API would have to interact to write anything for Nvidia, nor would AMD be likely to put their own money into doing so. AMD wants the head start with the technology they built, that makes sense.

Do you have anything to show that Mantle will not be open, despite what AMD itself says? I know anything can happen, but is there anything to suggest AMD is not being truthful when they say anyone will be able to use Mantle once the closed beta development period is over?

 

[Mand]

Do you have anything to show that Mantle will not be open, despite what AMD itself says?

Yes, I do, and it is what AMD itself says. They say that they will have full and total control of Mantle, in order to better optimize it for their own hardware.

That's not open.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Wrong.



http://www.pcworld.com/article/2365909/intel-approached-amd-about-access-to-mantle.html

If you believe the AMD PR talk. Sofar the claims about being open, in consoles and so on ahve been wrong. Not to mention 5 months from now we are basicly in DX12 RTM. Funny coincedence.

 

[Leadbox]

We already have an API by Committee and we can all see how well that goes.These parallels that are being drawn between Mantle and Gameworks are just off and puzzling, mantle does not and cannot affect DX path running on nvidia, Gameworks on the other hand with its blackbox approach... well :sneaky: and :ninja:

 

[Creig]

If you believe the AMD PR talk. Sofar the claims about being open, in consoles and so on ahve been wrong. Not to mention 5 months from now we are basicly in DX12 RTM. Funny coincedence.

You can believe whatever you want. But AMD has said that they will open up Mantle after it comes out of closed beta. Which will most likely be at the end of this year.

 

[Mand]

You can believe whatever you want. But AMD has said that they will open up Mantle after it comes out of closed beta. Which will most likely be at the end of this year.

No, they did not say they will open up Mantle. They said they would allow people to use Mantle. There's a very critical difference.

AMD will be maintaining full control of Mantle. The reason they want this control is so that they can better optimize Mantle for their own hardware. This is not what open means. This is the definition of proprietary.

Providing Mantle without a license doesn't make it open if AMD still maintains full control over what's in it.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Mantle has one major, major advantage over DX12. Microsoft historically takes forever to introduce updates, AMD doesn't have to wait for MS when they come out with new hardware they can update Mantle to support the new feature set as needed.

 

[Mand]

Mantle has one major, major advantage over DX12. Microsoft historically takes forever to introduce updates, AMD doesn't have to wait for MS when they come out with new hardware they can update Mantle to support the new feature set as needed.

To the people who are claiming Mantle is open:

How quickly will AMD update Mantle to support the new features from Nvidia cards?

 

[SlowSpyder]

To the people who are claiming Mantle is open:

How quickly will AMD update Mantle to support the new features from Nvidia cards?

Why would AMD do that at all?

I think at this point some of you are arguing over semantics more than anything.

 

[Mand]

Why would AMD do that at all?

I think at this point some of you are arguing over semantics more than anything.

Yes, it's arguing over semantics, specifically what the word "open" means.

You've proved the point I was trying to make though, in that Mantle is not open.

 

[Creig]

No, they did not say they will open up Mantle.

OMG.

They have asked for access, and we will give it to them when we open this up

They said they would allow people to use Mantle. There's a very critical difference.

AMD will be maintaining full control of Mantle. The reason they want this control is so that they can better optimize Mantle for their own hardware. This is not what open means. This is the definition of proprietary.

Providing Mantle without a license doesn't make it open if AMD still maintains full control over what's in it.

AMD's Mantle can be both proprietary and open at the same time. Simply because AMD will retain the rights to Mantle doesn't mean they can't open it up to other platforms. I think you're confusing "open" with "open source".

 

[Rvenger]

Let's keep this thread as civil as possible or it will be on the chopping block soon. As we already know how long Mantle threads last in these forums. The offenders know who they are too.

-Rvenger

 

[Keysplayr]

This is called trying to have your cake and eating it too. You cant have it your way all the time boys. Mantle is proprietary but all those thrashing Nvidia proprietary features for forever and a month of Sundays now cannot have anyone believing that AMD would actually commit the same "sin". Or try their best to somehow convince us all that Mantle is not proprietary. Its not happening dudes. Smarter people here than you believe. I dont know why you thought the contrary.

 

[Mand]

OMG.





AMD's Mantle can be both proprietary and open at the same time. Simply because AMD will retain the rights to Mantle doesn't mean they can't open it up to other platforms. I think you're confusing "open" with "open source".

Freely licensing something is not the same as making it open. AMD controls Mantle - that makes it not open.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Yes, it's arguing over semantics, specifically what the word "open" means.

You've proved the point I was trying to make though, in that Mantle is not open.

I asked "why would AMD do that at all?". I don't know how that proves anything you said. Please explain what you mean, I'm not following here.

What I'm getting at is, that like partisan politics, people often see things in black / white. But there are usually shades of grey in the middle. Will Mantle be free open source software that anyone can grab and code for? Will it be an open standard? I couldn't tell you. Will Mantle will be open to anyone who wants to participate in its development, but AMD still owns it? Maybe, I don't know. Will it be open only to those who AMD deems ok? Possibly.

I really don't know. But AMD says anyone who wants to be a part of it can. I don't know what they may (or may not) have said regarding Mantle as "open source".

http://support.amd.com/en-us/search/faq/184

Doesn't really say much of anything concrete.

 

[Mand]

I asked "why would AMD do that at all?". I don't know how that proves anything you said. Please explain what you mean, I'm not following here.

The answer to the question is "They wouldn't." And if AMD doesn't update Mantle to support Nvidia-only features, that's not very open now is it?

And before you ask, no, Nvidia can't update Mantle on its own to support its features, because AMD is maintaining complete control. If Nvidia tried, AMD would sue based on their licensing agreement. Hence, not open.

I really don't know. But AMD says anyone who wants to be a part of it can. I don't know what they may (or may not) have said regarding Mantle as "open source".

http://support.amd.com/en-us/search/faq/184

Doesn't really say much of anything concrete.

Yes, this is the part where they're concretely lying.

 

[WelshBloke]

Freely licensing something is not the same as making it open. AMD controls Mantle - that makes it not open.

Open =/= open source

 

[Mand]

Open =/= open source

Seriously? That's the extent of your claim?

Yes, it does ==. AMD has full control. AMD has full discretion over what's in Mantle. If Nvidia comes up with a new piece of tech, they can't integrate it with Mantle if AMD has full control.

That's not open.

 

[SlowSpyder]

The answer to the question is "They wouldn't." And if AMD doesn't update Mantle to support Nvidia-only features, that's not very open now is it?

And before you ask, no, Nvidia can't update Mantle on its own to support its features, because AMD is maintaining complete control. If Nvidia tried, AMD would sue based on their licensing agreement. Hence, not open.



Yes, this is the part where they're concretely lying.

AMD has made the claim several times now that they will open it up to others after the beta period. As far as I am aware, that was always what they said since Mantle was announced. Without the ability to tell the future, and without any real evidence one way or another, I don't see how you can know that AMD is lying or that Intel and / or Nvidia wouldn't have access.

If you have something that proves they won't have access, please post it. Otherwise you are just spreading FUD.

 

[WelshBloke]

Seriously? That's the extent of your claim?

Yes, it does ==. AMD has full control. AMD has full discretion over what's in Mantle. If Nvidia comes up with a new piece of tech, they can't integrate it with Mantle if AMD has full control.

That's not open.

Well directX is very much closed source but it's open for everyone to use (on windows).

 

[jackstar7]

Seriously? That's the extent of your claim?

Yes, it does ==. AMD has full control. AMD has full discretion over what's in Mantle. If Nvidia comes up with a new piece of tech, they can't integrate it with Mantle if AMD has full control.

That's not open.

Maybe this would help: can you provide an example of an open API?

 

[Mand]

AMD has made the claim several times now that they will open it up to others after the beta period. As far as I am aware, that was always what they said since Mantle was announced. Without the ability to tell the future, and without any real evidence one way or another, I don't see how you can know that AMD is lying or that Intel and / or Nvidia wouldn't have access.

If you have something that proves they won't have access, please post it. Otherwise you are just spreading FUD.

Huddy's recent interviews a month or so ago. He said unequivocally that AMD would be maintaining full control of Mantle, for the purpose of maximizing their ability to optimize their own hardware.

AMD is the one spreading FUD by claiming that Mantle is open. Right now, Mantle requires GCN. It doesn't even work on all AMD cards, let alone competitors' cards. They have said they will let, I repeat let people use it, but that's not good enough, nor is it a viable option. Just because they let people use it does not make it open. Open means that Nvidia would be able to make modifications to optimize Mantle for their own hardware. AMD has said, publicly, that they will maintain full control of Mantle. Which means whatever licensing agreement they have will mean that nobody other than AMD will be able to modify Mantle (otherwise they wouldn't have full control). So, while Nvidia could break that agreement and modify it anyway, AMD could sue them for it.

That's not open.

 

[Creig]

Seriously? That's the extent of your claim?

Yes, it does ==. AMD has full control. AMD has full discretion over what's in Mantle. If Nvidia comes up with a new piece of tech, they can't integrate it with Mantle if AMD has full control.

That's not open.

Nvidia's hardware PhysX - Has been proven to work with an AMD card as the primary video renderer and an Nvidia card performing the PhysX calculations. Yet Nvidia has chosen to completely disable hardware PhysX if it detects an AMD card in the system. That is closed.

AMD's Mantle - AMD has said that it will allow other vendors to utilize Mantle once it comes out of Beta testing sometime at the end of this year. They could have chosen to only allow Mantle to function on AMD cards, yet they have publicly stated that they will not do this. That is open.

It is not 'open source' where anybody can modify it at will, but it is still 'open' to other platforms.

 

[Mand]

Maybe this would help: can you provide an example of an open API?

OpenGL. From Wiki:

The Khronos Group is an American not-for-profit member-funded industry consortium based in Beaverton, Oregon, focused on the creation of open standard, royalty-free application programming interfaces (APIs) for authoring and accelerated playback of dynamic media on a wide variety of platforms and devices. Khronos members may contribute to the development of Khronos API specifications, vote at various stages before public deployment, and accelerate delivery of their platforms and applications through early access to specification drafts and conformance tests.

Key words: "open standard" "may contribute to the development" "vote at various stages"

All those key words need to go together in order to be open.

By contrast:

AMD has sole control of Mantle. AMD has sole contribution to the development. AMD has sole discretion about decisions made regarding Mantle.

Which one is open, and which one is not?