Dow tumbles more than 800 points. How ugly will this get?

[TheVrolok]

Take away his so called great economy and he's got nothing to run on.

He's still got plenty of racism and xenophobia to run on, not to mention his strong Christian values.

 

[dawp]

He's still got plenty of racism and xenophobia to run on, not to mention his strong Christian values.

ya mean his Ersatz Christian values?

 

[TheVrolok]

ya mean his Ersatz Christian values?

I mean Two Corinthians!

 

[dawp]

I mean Two Corinthians!

Exactly!!!!

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I suggest you re-read the OP. The point of this thread is that Trump's trade war with China is helping propel us into the next recession. there is nothing hysterical with that assessment.

And historically, recessions are something that inevitably happens to every economy. We are on the historical longest running without a recession.

What's your point? The market is simply volatile at the moment.

OH LOOK! DOW is up 410! MR. Trump is so awesome!

Amidoinitrite?

 

[K1052]

USTR announced delays in some categories of the 10% tariffs that were supposed to hit 9/1 until 12/15. Namely consumer electronics and toys shipping to the US for xmas.

What fucking brains these people are.

 

[K1052]

And historically, recessions are something that inevitably happens to every economy. We are on the historical longest running without a recession.

What's your point? The market is simply volatile at the moment.

OH LOOK! DOW is up 410! MR. Trump is so awesome!

Amidoinitrite?

I'm not sure that "simply volatile" properly describes irrational, reckless, and unpredictable trade policy that's weighing on the market.

 

[fskimospy]

USTR announced delays in some categories of the 10% tariffs that were supposed to hit 9/1 until 12/15. Namely consumer electronics and toys shipping to the US for xmas.

What fucking brains these people are.

Odd that Trump would delay tariffs out of concern for the US economy since according to him they're being paid by China anyway. If I'm China I see this as a sign of weakness and concern for the economy by Trump going into 2020, an advantage they can leverage over him.

If only someone could have predicted that this trade war would not be good, nor would it be easy to win, haha. It was entirely obvious from the start that China would not give in to threats like this.

 

[K1052]

Odd that Trump would delay tariffs out of concern for the US economy since according to him they're being paid by China anyway. If I'm China I see this as a sign of weakness and concern for the economy by Trump going into 2020, an advantage they can leverage over him.

If only someone could have predicted that this trade war would not be good, nor would it be easy to win, haha. It was entirely obvious from the start that China would not give in to threats like this.

It's surely clear to the Chinese how he values the markets and seeing them in the red drives him totally insane especially in the run up to 2020 and he'll cave to stop it.

 

[VRAMdemon]

Trump flavored kool-aid is strong...

https://shareblue.com/gop-senator-rick-scott-trump-trade-war-worth-it-recession/

Scott was asked in a Monday interview on CNBC what his stance would be on the trade war "if it starts to push the U.S. economy into recession."

"I think we've got to keep going down this path," Scott said, describing the trade war as "the only chance" of getting China to open up its markets.

If I didn't know any better, it seems like a multimillionaire, acting as a proxy for the billionaire class, is trying to sell middle class America the idea that the upcoming recession isn't a matter of failed economic policy, but rather economic patriotism and we should all just grit our way through it. So there you have it, folks. Something to chew on as your retirement accounts plummet. No matter how badly the Republicans fuck up the country, it's Chin's fault, Iran's fault, and most of all, your fault for not being smart enough to scam other Americans out of their money en route to becoming a millionaire. Tough shit, I guess.

Out of curiosity... how much was China importing (both from the US and in general) prior to the trade war? And is it going to open up enough to at least match the agricultural products that we are no longer selling.

Trump goes on and on about how he'll get a great trade deal with China, but I don't recall him ever saying what he actually wants out of it.

Has anybody heard him say what he wants out of this trade war? My cynical side thinks that Trump hasn't said what he wants so that whatever deal is struck he can declare it a win. Trump doesn't even know what kind of deal he wants from China.

If I'm gonna take a guess....From reading far more of Trump's words than anyone should over the past few years, I have concluded that all he wants from our trade relationships with other countries is a trade surplus. That's it. All he sees is the money we spend; it's as though the goods don't exist.

He's said several times that he wants to end trade deficits. I know that if you're the richest country in the world, with the highest standard of living in the world, you're going to buy a lot of stuff, and usually more than other countries buy from you. It's a sign of prosperity. But Trump somehow sees it as losing, and he wants it to end. So he's working as hard as he can to end our prosperity.

Trump doesn't understand economics - per Woodward's book Fear, Trump suggested having the Treasury print up money to pay off the deficit. Remember, according to Trump, the Chinese are paying his tariffs to the Treasury.

Obviously Trump went into this not really knowing anything himself - although, I'm sure some China hardliners were telling Trump things he thought sounded tough - and he'll take anything he gets and declare it a win.

Trade deficit bad! Surplus good! That's about it.

 

[IronWing]

If Trump isn't playing the market and making bank on his market manipulations, he's an idiot.

Trump says “Market go up” and the market goes up. Trump says “Market go down” and the market goes down. I wonder when he’ll say “Market roll over”?

 

[PJFrylar]

I'm not sure that "simply volatile" properly describes irrational, reckless, and unpredictable trade policy that's weighing on the market.

This. I'm not worried about the DOW. I'm worried about ill timed tax cuts and stupid no win trade wars.

 

[Muse]

What's your point? The market is simply volatile at the moment.

Volatile because the infantile White House denizen can't help himself. One week he declares monumental tariffs and the stock market tumbles. A week or two later he recinds his dicta, says he'll hold off until Dec. 15 because it "might" affect the Christmas shopping season for Americans. Might, yeah! But can you imagine that he's going to slap on 10% tariffs on that scale on Dec. 15? Ten days before Christmas? What odds do you want?

 

[jmagg]

Less pot metal and lead, how bad can that be?

 

[fskimospy]

Volatile because the infantile White House denizen can't help himself. One week he declares monumental tariffs and the stock market tumbles. A week or two later he recinds his dicta, says he'll hold off until Dec. 15 because it "might" affect the Christmas shopping season for Americans. Might, yeah! But can you imagine that he's going to slap on 10% tariffs on that scale on Dec. 15? Ten days before Christmas? What odds do you want?

Paul Krugman brought up a good point as to why the unstable and unpredictable tariff situation is even more damaging than if he just decided one way or the other. (That being said, the answer is clearly no tariffs as they just tax people to make the economy less efficient)

Basically his point was that if you know tariffs are going to be in place then fine, businesses can invest in things they compete with imports. If you think they won’t be in place then you can invest in things that depend on imports. If you have no idea what will happen you can’t invest in either.

 

[Bitek]

Trump is losing this trade war badly.

He shot off about these tariffs, got a strong response from China, then he got scared and backed out.

China is still moving forward on the currency manipulation.

Trump got nothing from this other than further revealing his weakness, fear and incompetence

 

[MomentsofSanity]

And there’s the yield inversion. Recession fears grow. This will be a fun day at work.

 

[fskimospy]

Trump is losing this trade war badly.

He shot off about these tariffs, got a strong response from China, then he got scared and backed out.

China is still moving forward on the currency manipulation.

Trump got nothing from this other than further revealing his weakness, fear and incompetence

Although what’s funny about this is that in response to Trump China STOPPED manipulating its currency. It had been acting to prop up the yuan and that recent drop happened simply because it decided to stop doing so.

This led to the surreal moment of the US threatening and then declaring China to be a currency manipulator because it...yes...stopped manipulating its currency.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Although what’s funny about this is that in response to Trump China STOPPED manipulating its currency. It had been acting to prop up the yuan and that recent drop happened simply because it decided to stop doing so.

This led to the surreal moment of the US threatening and then declaring China to be a currency manipulator because it...yes...stopped manipulating its currency.

I’m just curious why Trumo had to delay the tariffs for Christmas when China is paying for them. Is it a Christmas present for Xi?

 

[ch33zw1z]

I’m just curious why Trumo had to delay the tariffs for Christmas when China is paying for them. Is it a Christmas present for Xi?

I think it has more to do with the situation in the consumer market. Where the middle class is really feeling the pinch. I think the GOP knows this, and will do whatever they can to play dumb, chant bootstraps, but push quarterly earnings for corporate America.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/23/nea...-into-debt-trying-to-pay-for-necessities.html

 

[fskimospy]

I’m just curious why Trumo had to delay the tariffs for Christmas when China is paying for them. Is it a Christmas present for Xi?

I know you’re as shocked as I am but it appears Trump may not have been entirely truthful about who is paying the tariffs.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

I think it has more to do with the situation in the consumer market. Where the middle class is really feeling the pinch. I think the GOP knows this, and will do whatever they can to play dumb, chant bootstraps, but push quarterly earnings for corporate America.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/23/nea...-into-debt-trying-to-pay-for-necessities.html

I think the admin is finally pushed to the point they have to do something to stem what looks like is about to happen. Can’t stick their heads any longer with all the recession talk.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I think the admin is finally pushed to the point they have to do something to stem what looks like is about to happen. Can’t stick their heads any longer with all the recession talk.

Yea, I agree. The big problem is that after the last recession, money funneled up the ladder faster than ever, then with the tax cuts there was even more money handed to the .01%, there's a breaking point...and it's my opinion the middle class is pretty close to it.

 

[K1052]

I think the admin is finally pushed to the point they have to do something to stem what looks like is about to happen. Can’t stick their heads any longer with all the recession talk.

When they pull back somewhere he usually can't resist the urge to hit at somebody else because he feels weak. European cars and parts maybe next?

 

[SMOGZINN]

Volatile because the infantile White House denizen can't help himself. One week he declares monumental tariffs and the stock market tumbles. A week or two later he recinds his dicta, says he'll hold off until Dec. 15 because it "might" affect the Christmas shopping season for Americans. Might, yeah! But can you imagine that he's going to slap on 10% tariffs on that scale on Dec. 15? Ten days before Christmas? What odds do you want?

My guess is that will all depend on how well Trump can leverage those tariffs to his own personal gain. Did you know that Trump was famous for some questionably legal market manipulation in the late '80? There is already some questions about if Trump has been giving insider information to specific people concerning his tweets that he knows will move the market.

Basically his point was that if you know tariffs are going to be in place then fine, businesses can invest in things they compete with imports. If you think they won’t be in place then you can invest in things that depend on imports. If you have no idea what will happen you can’t invest in either.

Unless you know what tariffs are going to be implemented when. Then you can make a fortune.