Don't you dread single payer?

[AViking]

FTFW:

"Poor/uninsured"
Canada healthcare > USA
Sweden Healthcare > USA

"Money/Insured"
USA > *

Hate to break it to you but Swedes and Canadians aren't poor. We spend less on healthcare and get more for it.

 

[Genx87]

WTF is wrong with you characterizing the problem as a demand issue? Are you fucking serious with this shit? Do you have stats showing that reducing the amount of people going to the doctor unnecessarily will make any significant change to our current demand? If you don't, you have nothing supporting your position and we are free to characterize your position as "people just need to stop getting sick or hurt."

Why is it difficult for you to understand when a person doesnt pay for the full cost of a service they will use it more than they normally would? Yes we have a serious demand issue due to our 3rd party way of paying for health services. Nobody cares what the cost of a service is because all they see is a copay.

One thing I am hopeful with Obamacare is the fact we are all going to be funneled into high deductible insurance plans or be forced to pay a cadillac tax. That means we will shoulder more of our own health care costs and potentially reduce demand and costs on a longer term basis.

 

[glenn1]

If it is done right it doesnt have to suck. And by that I mean a catastrophic system that makes sure if you have a catastrophic illness it wont wipe you out. But if we enact a system where co-pays are 15 bucks well then that will suck. Because it wont address any of the demand issues we have within the system because a 3rd party pays for our health care.

Progressives don't seem to be interested in a streamlined system that empowers citizens to think for themselves. If they were, Obamacare's "three-legged stool" could have been the following:

1. Government-paid catastrophic medical insurance to address the "medical bankruptcy" issue
2. Government furnished primary healthcare to the poor and indigient to handle vaccinations and low-grade medical issues without clogging the emergency room.
3. Redirecting the tax benefits currently applied to employer-provided health insurance, into nto a user-owned and directed account like a HSA. That would address some of the over-utilization of health services while forcing price transparency.

But no, instead we had the bastardized abomination of Obamacare forced onto us. And the progressives want to further fuck things up by going full retard all the way to single payer.

 

[AViking]

That's kinda weird don't you think? Healthcare demand?

The solution is for them to reduce the wasteful spending in the form of extraneous tests and high administration costs.

 

[nickbits]

Hate to break it to you but Swedes and Canadians aren't poor. We spend less on healthcare and get more for it.

Thanks, but I'm Canadian and lived under that system for 28 years. I stand by my comment. I never said Canadians are poor, I mean IF you are poor/uninsured those systems are better for you.

 

[Genx87]

That's kinda weird don't you think? Healthcare demand?

The solution is for them to reduce the wasteful spending in the form of extraneous tests and high administration costs.

What is weird about it? People demand a service and get it. Health care is a market like any other service.

Wasteful spending in the form of too many tests is because the person recieving the service doesnt pay for it. Why would they care if too many tests are performed? They dont pay for it.

 

[AViking]

Yes obviously if you have no money and they charge you a ton for health insurance it's better for you. What you have to ask is if you have money which is better. Paying more in taxes or high insurance premiums along with copays and deductibles? See my thread in the discussion section but what I think Americans fail to realize is that they are paying more for healthcare than we are in Sweden and we get more for our tax dollars. Do the math as a percentage of your income and you will find that you (or your employer) is paying a boat load of money for lower life expectancy, higher infant mortality, and worse emergency room care.

 

[dank69]

Why is it difficult for you to understand when a person doesnt pay for the full cost of a service they will use it more than they normally would? Yes we have a serious demand issue due to our 3rd party way of paying for health services. Nobody cares what the cost of a service is because all they see is a copay.

One thing I am hopeful with Obamacare is the fact we are all going to be funneled into high deductible insurance plans or be forced to pay a cadillac tax. That means we will shoulder more of our own health care costs and potentially reduce demand and costs on a longer term basis.

Right, people are knocking each other over to pay the copay to sit in hospitals/clinics because it is such a great deal for a fun family time. Think before you post.

 

[Genx87]

Right, people are knocking each other over to pay the copay to sit in hospitals/clinics because it is such a great deal for a fun family time. Think before you post.

Is this your version of taking your ball home with you? You havent thought this one through at all. Explain to me why somebody would care about the cost of their health service on the same level when it costs them 15 dollars vs 350? It amazes me how many people dont understand health care is a market like anything else. When somebody else pays for your service, you are more likely to use or over use the service.

 

[jackstar7]

Ah yes, altruism. They should all work because they love smelly feet and (literally) looking at assholes all day. While most do like helping people, they also like making hefty paychecks, and given what they have to go through for their education and training, not to mention the interminable hours as residents, they deserve it.

You know there are self interests aside from financial, yes?

Motivation is not a binary equation.

 

[AViking]

I honestly can't relate to your point of view. I'm not even sure what you're trying to say.

You want it to be expensive so that fewer people can use it? You'll notice that I didn't use the word "will", I used the word "can".

Millions upon millions have no health insurance and bankruptcies are destroying families. All because a small segment of the population feels that healthcare coverage is not a right but a privilege.

Reduce the cost of healthcare coverage and get everyone covered. Stop trying to justify keeping people without healthcare.

 

[dank69]

Is this your version of taking your ball home with you? You havent thought this one through at all. Explain to me why somebody would care about the cost of their health service on the same level when it costs them 15 dollars vs 350? It amazes me how many people dont understand health care is a market like anything else. When somebody else pays for your service, you are more likely to use or over use the service.

Because time is a cost as well which you have to completely ignore in order for your fantasy to not fall down all around you. Nobody wants to spend any time with a doctor when they don't have to except for hypochondriacs and what percentage of the population do they comprise? Negligent would be my bet. Hell, a bigger proportion of the US population probably chooses not to go to the doctor when they should even if they have great insurance.

 

[desy]

In Canada sure everybody can go and gasp, overuse, and its still way cheaper than the US model
Not everything is covered and we have gasp, all kinds of insurance companies up here, my wife works at one.
You can also gasp, go get a hip done as soon as you want if you go pay out of pocket for it
or an MRI
The best system would be a hybrid system with single payer but pay for service options like France

 

[sm625]

I wish they would do it. Soon afterwards you'll start seeing huge medical treatment centers appearing in places like India, complete with their own airports. It even opens the possibility of the Medical Blimp™ Screw these frickin Nazis and these frickin criminal cartels. You cant stop the market.

 

[Genx87]

Because time is a cost as well which you have to completely ignore in order for your fantasy to not fall down all around you. Nobody wants to spend any time with a doctor when they don't have to except for hypochondriacs and what percentage of the population do they comprise? Negligent would be my bet. Hell, a bigger proportion of the US population probably chooses not to go to the doctor when they should even if they have great insurance.

You created this fantasy where people go to doctor as entertainment. Way to shoot down your own straw man argument! /thumbsup

Now that we have eliminated the entertainment fantasy we can discuss what happens when people decide to go to the doctor when they dont need to because they dont have to pay for it. They ask for tests they dont need because they dont pay for it. Obamacare as it is designed has a good chance to accomplish the very thing I am describing.

 

[dank69]

You created this fantasy where people go to doctor as entertainment. Way to shoot down your own straw man argument! /thumbsup

Now that we have eliminated the entertainment fantasy we can discuss what happens when people decide to go to the doctor when they dont need to because they dont have to pay for it. They ask for tests they dont need because they dont pay for it. Obamacare as it is designed has a good chance to accomplish the very thing I am describing.

My fantasy? You are the one claiming that more people will go to the doctor simply because it costs less. Show the stats supporting your claim. They should be easy to find since a great majority of the country already has insurance. So how much of our current healthcare is unnecessary?

 

[Genx87]

I honestly can't relate to your point of view. I'm not even sure what you're trying to say.

You want it to be expensive so that fewer people can use it? You'll notice that I didn't use the word "will", I used the word "can".

Millions upon millions have no health insurance and bankruptcies are destroying families. All because a small segment of the population feels that healthcare coverage is not a right but a privilege.

Reduce the cost of healthcare coverage and get everyone covered. Stop trying to justify keeping people without healthcare.

I think yiou have a fundamental misunderstanding where costs within the system come from. Do you believe the cost of insurance is what drives the cost of healthcare? Insurance is only as expensive as the costs of the medical procedures for which it pays. When medical procedures are being done when they dont need to be, or people are utilizing a doctor when they dont need to the costs within the system raise.

If you put a brake on that demand by having the consumer foot more of the bill. The costs within the system will drop.

 

[Genx87]

My fantasy? You are the one claiming that more people will go to the doctor simply because it costs less. Show the stats supporting your claim. They should be easy to find since a great majority of the country already has insurance. So how much of our current healthcare is unnecessary?

Are you really asking me to provide you proof of our out of control health care inflation?

 

[dank69]

Are you really asking me to provide you proof of our out of control health care inflation?

No, I am asking you to prove that the cause of high demand is low cost to the consumer.

 

[Genx87]

No, I am asking you to prove that the cause of high demand is low cost to the consumer.

Like I just said, are you really asking me to provide you proof of our out of control health care inflation?

We have had low cost to the consumer for decades via 15-30 dollar co-pays on hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of services. And in some cases no pay as people skip on the bill.

Even if you want to forget our decades of health care inflation use that brain of yours and apply a low cost to a desired product in other markets.

 

[AViking]

I think yiou have a fundamental misunderstanding where costs within the system come from. Do you believe the cost of insurance is what drives the cost of healthcare? Insurance is only as expensive as the costs of the medical procedures for which it pays. When medical procedures are being done when they dont need to be, or people are utilizing a doctor when they dont need to the costs within the system raise.

If you put a brake on that demand by having the consumer foot more of the bill. The costs within the system will drop.

I agree with your first paragraph but not the second. I'm saying that these extra procedures need to be eliminated and we need to stop paying so much for things that cost much less elsewhere. There is no reason that a radiologist should get paid $500,000 a year except that they are charging $5000 for an MRI. Raising costs will simply reduce the number of people getting healthcare and increase profit margins to the medical device manufacturers, pharmaceuticals, etc.

 

[AViking]

Like I just said, are you really asking me to provide you proof of our out of control health care inflation?

We have had low cost to the consumer for decades via 15-30 dollar co-pays on hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of services. And in some cases no pay as people skip on the bill.

Even if you want to forget our decades of health care inflation use that brain of yours and apply a low cost to a desired product in other markets.

Honestly you need to start providing links. You are not describing supply and demand.

 

[dank69]

Like I just said, are you really asking me to provide you proof of our out of control health care inflation?

You can keep claiming that the source of the inflation is specifically tied to low cost to the consumer but that doesn't make it so.

We have had low cost to the consumer for decades via 15-30 dollar co-pays on hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of services. And in some cases no pay as people skip on the bill.

Even if you want to forget our decades of health care inflation use that brain of yours and apply a low cost to a desired product in other markets.

Healthcare isn't like other markets. Do you think if open heart surgery was free, people would line up just to get them some of that? How about any other non-cosmetic type of surgery? Free chemo for everyone! Use your brain. I know your ego is tied to this ridiculous position of yours but please, use your brain.

 

[cbrunny]

Healthcare in Canada is awesome. It isn't 100% perfect, but show me something that is.

It is expensive on the tax dollars, but it is well worth every penny. Those with money can purchase additional insurance as well. "How are you going to pay for this?" is something I've never heard anyone say at a hospital or doctor's office.

 

[Genx87]

I agree with your first paragraph but not the second. I'm saying that these extra procedures need to be eliminated and we need to stop paying so much for things that cost much less elsewhere. There is no reason that a radiologist should get paid $500,000 a year except that they are charging $5000 for an MRI. Raising costs will simply reduce the number of people getting healthcare and increase profit margins to the medical device manufacturers, pharmaceuticals, etc.

Hey I am saying the same thing on those extra procedures. They will be eliminated as more people feel the cost of them via higher deductible insurance. Obamacare is funneling us into govt defined plans that are exceedingly high deduct. A radiologist will charge what people\insurance are willing to pay. And in the past insurance is what was paying the bill. At 5K a shot, it is possible people will not purchase this service at all if they are paying for it out of pocket. That will reduce the demand for his services and thus the cost to the end user who is willing to purchase it. Or the guy simply goes out of business.