Don't you dread single payer?

[Genx87]

You can keep claiming that the source of the inflation is specifically tied to low cost to the consumer but that doesn't make it so.

What do you think it is tied to? For profit insurance companies wanting to make less money by paying more for procedures than they should?

Healthcare isn't like other markets. Do you think if open heart surgery was free, people would line up just to get them some of that? How about any other non-cosmetic type of surgery? Free chemo for everyone! Use your brain. I know your ego is tied to this ridiculous position of yours but please, use your brain.

It is in many day to day health related situations. When it comes to catastrophic illness that is where insurance should be there to keep somebody from going into bankruptcy. We have turned our catastrophic insurance into a revolving privately run entitlement program. The result is out of control costs. Keep insurance where it should be and it should help contain medical costs in the future.

Obamacare amazingly may just do that once we are all on high deductible plans.

 

[AViking]

I don't see how you can simply say that people will not get an MRI. If they actually need it they need it. So by leaving it at $5000 you would simply be putting a financial burden on patients.

What needs to stop is charging $5000 when it costs about $250 and doctors providing an MRI when someone comes in for a sprained ankle.

 

[dank69]

What do you think it is tied to? For profit insurance companies wanting to make less money by paying more for procedures than they should?


...

Don't shift the burden of proof onto me. Prove your claim.

 

[dank69]

I don't see how you can simply say that people will not get an MRI. If they actually need it they need it. So by leaving it at $5000 you would simply be putting a financial burden on patients.

What needs to stop is charging $5000 when it costs about $250 and doctors providing an MRI when someone comes in for a sprained ankle.

He thinks his idea will be the solution. It isn't grounded in reality. Healthcare isn't a simple supply/demand market.

 

[Genx87]

I don't see how you can simply say that people will not get an MRI. If they actually need it they need it. So by leaving it at $5000 you would simply be putting a financial burden on patients.

What needs to stop is charging $5000 when it costs about $250 and doctors providing an MRI when someone comes in for a sprained ankle.

If I dont think it needs to be done and 5K is worth more to me. I wont get it done. Why would you?

But lets discuss something a little less catastrophic in nature. What about a cold? Would you go see a doctor for a common cold if it cost you 350 dollars instead of 30?

Of course I am asking patients to be part of the market in which they are consuming.

 

[AViking]

Well lets see. Been a while but lets see if I can apply the supply/demand curve to healthcare.

The four basic laws of supply and demand are:

• If demand increases and supply remains unchanged, a shortage occurs, leading to a higher equilibrium price.
• If demand decreases and supply remains unchanged, a surplus occurs, leading to a lower equilibrium price.
• If demand remains unchanged and supply increases, a surplus occurs, leading to a lower equilibrium price.
• If demand remains unchanged and supply decreases, a shortage occurs, leading to a higher equilibrium price.

So lets see. If demand FOR HEALTHCARE remains unchanged and supply OF HEALTHCARE increases, a surplus occurs, leading to a lower equilibrium price. Therefore there would be too many doctors and they would lower their salaries and healthcare costs to try to attract more patients. I can see that happening. I totally can.

 

[dank69]

If I dont think it needs to be done and 5K is worth more to me. I wont get it done. Why would you?

But lets discuss something a little less catastrophic in nature. What about a cold? Would you go see a doctor for a common cold if it cost you 350 dollars instead of 30?

Of course I am asking patients to be part of the market in which they are consuming.

Considering a doctor can't do shit for a common cold, maybe you should come up with a better example.

 

[AViking]

If I dont think it needs to be done and 5K is worth more to me. I wont get it done. Why would you?

But lets discuss something a little less catastrophic in nature. What about a cold? Would you go see a doctor for a common cold if it cost you 350 dollars instead of 30?

Of course I am asking patients to be part of the market in which they are consuming.

Who even goes to the doctor for a cold? Your example is so stupid since nobody goes to the doctor for something that has no cure that over the counter medication will take care of along with some hot tea.

How about something more realistic? Say I have strep throat. I would have no choice but to go to the doctor. I would have no choice but to get some antibiotics. Your theory is asinine. Think it through.

 

[dank69]

Well lets see. Been a while but lets see if I can apply the supply/demand curve to healthcare.

The four basic laws of supply and demand are:

• If demand increases and supply remains unchanged, a shortage occurs, leading to a higher equilibrium price.
• If demand decreases and supply remains unchanged, a surplus occurs, leading to a lower equilibrium price.
• If demand remains unchanged and supply increases, a surplus occurs, leading to a lower equilibrium price.
• If demand remains unchanged and supply decreases, a shortage occurs, leading to a higher equilibrium price.

So lets see. If demand FOR HEALTHCARE remains unchanged and supply OF HEALTHCARE increases, a surplus occurs, leading to a lower equilibrium price. Therefore there would be too many doctors and they would lower their salaries and healthcare costs to try to attract more patients. I can see that happening. I totally can.

To illustrate my point specifically, people don't go out and buy extra healthcare simply because they have more money at their disposal.

 

[AViking]

I think he's trolling. I'm waiting for him to go full retard to confirm but I'm pretty sure he's trolling.

 

[Genx87]

Don't shift the burden of proof onto me. Prove your claim.

So you dont believe our health care inflation has been out of control? That is the only thing I can conclude from you.

 

[Genx87]

Considering a doctor can't do shit for a common cold, maybe you should come up with a better example.

Of course he cant but that doesnt stop people from going to them for shit like that because it doesnt cost them anything.

 

[glenn1]

Considering a doctor can't do shit for a common cold, maybe you should come up with a better example.

Use Lasik eye correction surgery then. You can get it done nowadays for around $1-2k. How much do you think it would cost if health insurance covered it? Or Obamacare mandated its coverage?

The basic point stands. When you're dealing with a health insurance model, the premiums are sunk costs. Ditto for taxes paid in Single Payer/government run systems. Thus there is absolutely no reason for consumers not to expend any and all services you might be entitled to. "Sure it's probably just a sprain, but let's run an MRI, blood tests, and refer to an orthopedist just to be sure." When you're not paying the bill directly (because of either "single payer" healthcare or as part of a health insurance benefit) there's no reason to turn down these services. If you had to consider whether to expend limited Health Savings Accounts on them, then consumers would probably say "thanks but no thanks."

 

[Genx87]

Well lets see. Been a while but lets see if I can apply the supply/demand curve to healthcare.

The four basic laws of supply and demand are:

• If demand increases and supply remains unchanged, a shortage occurs, leading to a higher equilibrium price.
• If demand decreases and supply remains unchanged, a surplus occurs, leading to a lower equilibrium price.
• If demand remains unchanged and supply increases, a surplus occurs, leading to a lower equilibrium price.
• If demand remains unchanged and supply decreases, a shortage occurs, leading to a higher equilibrium price.

So lets see. If demand FOR HEALTHCARE remains unchanged and supply OF HEALTHCARE increases, a surplus occurs, leading to a lower equilibrium price. Therefore there would be too many doctors and they would lower their salaries and healthcare costs to try to attract more patients. I can see that happening. I totally can.

I'd go with #2 since that is what we are discussing. High costs to the consumer resulting in lower demand.

Lets wait a few years for Obamacare to fully kick in and see if inflation of healthcare subdues or increases or stays the same. By the time this is fully implemented most people will be paying out of pocket for most non-catastrophic procedures.

 

[Genx87]

Use Lasik eye correction surgery then. You can get it done nowadays for around $1-2k. How much do you think it would cost if health insurance covered it? Or Obamacare mandated its coverage?

The basic point stands. When you're dealing with a health insurance model, the premiums are sunk costs. Ditto for taxes paid in Single Payer/government run systems. Thus there is absolutely no reason for consumers not to expend any and all services you might be entitled to. "Sure it's probably just a sprain, but let's run an MRI, blood tests, and refer to an orthopedist just to be sure." When you're not paying the bill directly (because of either "single payer" healthcare or as part of a health insurance benefit) there's no reason to turn down these services. If you had to consider whether to expend limited Health Savings Accounts on them, then consumers would probably say "thanks but no thanks."

Exactly.

 

[dank69]

So you dont believe our health care inflation has been out of control? That is the only thing I can conclude from you.

That's because you are a dishonest fuckstain. You can read exactly what I believe multiple times if you want to be honest. Here, I'll even post it here again so you can't weasel your way out of it. I believe that our healthcare inflation is out of control but I don't believe Genx has any proof backing his claim that low cost to consumers is the reason why.

 

[dank69]

Use Lasik eye correction surgery then. You can get it done nowadays for around $1-2k. How much do you think it would cost if health insurance covered it? Or Obamacare mandated its coverage?

The basic point stands. When you're dealing with a health insurance model, the premiums are sunk costs. Ditto for taxes paid in Single Payer/government run systems. Thus there is absolutely no reason for consumers not to expend any and all services you might be entitled to. "Sure it's probably just a sprain, but let's run an MRI, blood tests, and refer to an orthopedist just to be sure." When you're not paying the bill directly (because of either "single payer" healthcare or as part of a health insurance benefit) there's no reason to turn down these services. If you had to consider whether to expend limited Health Savings Accounts on them, then consumers would probably say "thanks but no thanks."

Look who decided to bring in elective surgery when I specifically excluded it many posts ago. So what's your excuse? Ignorant or dishonest like Genx?

 

[yllus]

FTFW:

"Poor/uninsured"
Canada healthcare > USA
Sweden Healthcare > USA

"Money/Insured"
USA > *

Accurate. There is no denying that for the middle and upper classes, U.S. health care is superior to that in any other country.

Is this your version of taking your ball home with you? You havent thought this one through at all. Explain to me why somebody would care about the cost of their health service on the same level when it costs them 15 dollars vs 350? It amazes me how many people dont understand health care is a market like anything else. When somebody else pays for your service, you are more likely to use or over use the service.

Also accurate. Up here in Canada we've debated having a small co-pay for exactly this reason - people use the ER to check on a mild cough and clog it up. The goal is to have them think about it a little before coming in; a very small co-pay is the standard method to accomplish this.

 

[dank69]

Accurate. There is no denying that for the middle and upper classes, U.S. health care is superior to that in any other country.



Also accurate. Up here in Canada we've debated having a small co-pay for exactly this reason - people use the ER to check on a mild cough and clog it up. The goal is to have them think about it a little before coming in; a very small co-pay is the standard method to accomplish this.

Spend hours at the ER because I don't have to pay for it but if I have to pay a small copay, fuck that. Seems legit.

 

[Genx87]

That's because you are a dishonest fuckstain. You can read exactly what I believe multiple times if you want to be honest. Here, I'll even post it here again so you can't weasel your way out of it. I believe that our healthcare inflation is out of control but I don't believe Genx has any proof backing his claim that low cost to consumers is the reason why.

I think you havent been honest with your own argument. You admit large % of our population over the past few decades have had health insurance. Do you believe that insurance has been high deductible out of pocket or the co-pay for 15-30 dollar type? If you believe it is the 15-30 dollar co-pay type. Then the end user isnt paying for their routine health costs.

It certainly isnt the sole reason why. But it is a major contributor. When the end user of any product doesnt have to pay the full cost of that product. They will consume it at a higher rate. You know that in any other market, so why are you so defiant this isnt the reason in this market?

 

[Genx87]

Spend hours at the ER because I don't have to pay for it but if I have to pay a small copay, fuck that. Seems legit.

So now yllus is a dishonest fuckstain as well? Sounds like a conspiracy. Or maybe you need to re-evaluate your argument.

 

[dank69]

I think you havent been honest with your own argument. You admit large % of our population over the past few decades have had health insurance. Do you believe that insurance has been high deductible out of pocket or the co-pay for 15-30 dollar type? If you believe it is the 15-30 dollar co-pay type. Then the end user isnt paying for their routine health costs.

It certainly isnt the sole reason why. But it is a major contributor. When the end user of any product doesnt have to pay the full cost of that product. They will consume it at a higher rate. You know that in any other market, so why are you so defiant this isnt the reason in this market?

Junior high debate teams know that correlation doesn't equal causation. What is your excuse? You are already folding with your "It isn't the sole reason" line so maybe there is hope for you. Next step is to attempt to find some studies that show what you say is true. When you can't you can come back and admit you are arguing from ignorance.

 

[dank69]

So now yllus is a dishonest fuckstain as well? Sounds like a conspiracy. Or maybe you need to re-evaluate your argument.

Since yllus hasn't specifically reworded what I am asking three times, no, he isn't a dishonest fuckstain. You continue to be, however.

 

[Anarchist420]

I wish they would do it. Soon afterwards you'll start seeing huge medical treatment centers appearing in places like India, complete with their own airports. It even opens the possibility of the Medical Blimp™ Screw these frickin Nazis and these frickin criminal cartels. You cant stop the market.

They'll probably make a border to keep people like me in once that happens.

 

[Genx87]

Junior high debate teams know that correlation doesn't equal causation. What is your excuse? You are already folding with your "It isn't the sole reason" line so maybe there is hope for you. Next step is to attempt to find some studies that show what you say is true. When you can't you can come back and admit you are arguing from ignorance.

So far we have you dodging questions, shooting down your own fantasy straw man arguments, and calling names. Clearly I am the one below a junior high level debate team.