Donald Trump: The Ugly American

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DrDoug

Diamond Member
Jan 16, 2014
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In the absence of transparency, speculation will fill the void.

IOW, make shit up. Gotcha. BTW, Democrats (supporters) love them some Elizabeth but didn't want her to run because of her value in the Senate and the fact that the Republican governor could appoint a Republican to fill her seat.

But do keep making shit up, it's amusing.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,493
3,159
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Sometimes I feel sorry for the republicans.
They have such a dilemma.
And a challenge.

 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,236
14,946
136
(A) political ambitions
(B) brokered deal
(C) committee or cabinet position
(D) SCOTUS nomination

We will find out shortly which it was

Let me get this straight; Clinton silenced Warren who, according to you was going to be Sanders running mate? So how exactly is convincing someone not to be a VP clearing the field? Warren was never on the field so I'm not sure what you are talking about. If Warren wasn't running as president then it seems politically smart to obtain Warren as a supporter, no? So I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that she was silenced. Is this another case of you using words that have a very known public meaning to mean something else?
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
IOW, make shit up. Gotcha. BTW, Democrats (supporters) love them some Elizabeth but didn't want her to run because of her value in the Senate and the fact that the Republican governor could appoint a Republican to fill her seat.

But do keep making shit up, it's amusing.
Do a few searches. Before Sanders there was a short lived but nonetheless readyforwarren movement amongst her supporters. Similarly, once it became clear she was not going to run for President herself, many in the Sanders camp held on to the hope of her endorsing him or outright serving as his VP pick, all the more speculated by her reluctance to endorse either candidate. I believe she was the last or one of the last female Congresswomen or Senators to endorse Clinton.

She had outsized and tremendous media attention surrounding who she would endorse. You dont think both Sanders and Clinton actively courted her, with some power brokering going on?
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
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Let me get this straight; Clinton silenced Warren who, according to you was going to be Sanders running mate? So how exactly is convincing someone not to be a VP clearing the field? Warren was never on the field so I'm not sure what you are talking about. If Warren wasn't running as president then it seems politically smart to obtain Warren as a supporter, no? So I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that she was silenced. Is this another case of you using words that have a very known public meaning to mean something else?

Warren did not seem interested in running with Sanders or Clinton. She might have wiped both of them out if she ran for POTUS on the Democratic side.

Personally, I think she would make an excellent Supreme Court justice myself.

I'm not sure myself if she has been angling for anything, but she would be a good choice there IMHO.
 
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sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,493
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Warren did not seem interested in running with Sanders or Clinton. She might have wiped both of them out if she ran for POTUS on the Democratic side.

Personally, I think she would make an excellent Supreme Court justice myself.

I'm not sure myself if she has been angling for anything, but she would be a good choice there IMHO.

I'd like to see Warren, Sanders and Judge Judy on the high court.
 

DrDoug

Diamond Member
Jan 16, 2014
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Before Sanders there was a short lived but nonetheless readyforwarren movement amongst her supporters.

I don't have to do a single search, go visit Daily Kos (or other liberal sites) and check their archives from the primaries if you don't believe me. There were plenty of discussions on the subject, and I mean plenty as they are big fans of hers. You might want to have said a "small" number of supporters because that is what it was, but most were quickly talked back by common sense. Losing her seat to a Republican replacement wasn't an option, period. No doubt that EW gets lots of love from the left and some would have loved to have seen her run, but the political stars didn't align for that to happen.

Try again.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
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126
I don't have to do a single search, go visit Daily Kos (or other liberal sites) and check their archives from the primaries if you don't believe me. There were plenty of discussions on the subject, and I mean plenty as they are big fans of hers. You might want to have said a "small" number of supporters because that is what it was, but most were quickly talked back by common sense. Losing her seat to a Republican replacement wasn't an option, period. No doubt that EW gets lots of love from the left and some would have loved to have seen her run, but the political stars didn't align for that to happen.

Try again.
That is my point. Talked to common sense by who exactly? I threw out Warren because she is a nationally known figure, but I recall quite a few other names circulating as potential heirs to Obama. Gavin Newsom, Antonio Villaraigosa, Andrew Cuomo, Deval Patrick. For candidates with strong localized appeal but not necessarily broad national recognition, you need establishment donors to kickstart their campaigns into the national spotlight.

Clinton was the presumptive nominee until Obama came out of nowhere, a relatively unknown national figure prior to his campaign, and beat her with a resonating message and superior ground game built from a broad reaching coalition of advocates. For this election cycle, any of the names I previously mentioned were potential threats to her for a variety of reasons, and you can be sure the Clintons were working the establishment hard to make sure she didn't face Obama 2.0.

Why did Obama make Clinton his SoS and advocate for her over any of the candidates I previously mentioned. That is open to speculation, but I would hardly classify her as his heir apparent.

Given the names I just rattled off, how did the only credible threats to Clinton become Webb and Sanders, two DINO's beyond the reach of the establishment. Does that not strike you as oddly coincidental?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
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That is my point. Talked to common sense by who exactly? I threw out Warren because she is a nationally known figure, but I recall quite a few other names circulating as potential heirs to Obama. Gavin Newsom, Antonio Villaraigosa, Andrew Cuomo, Deval Patrick. For candidates with strong localized appeal but not necessarily broad national recognition, you need establishment donors to kickstart their campaigns into the national spotlight.

Clinton was the presumptive nominee until Obama came out of nowhere, a relatively unknown national figure prior to his campaign, and beat her with a resonating message and superior ground game built from a broad reaching coalition of advocates. For this election cycle, any of the names I previously mentioned were potential threats to her for a variety of reasons, and you can be sure the Clintons were working the establishment hard to make sure she didn't face Obama 2.0.

Why did Obama make Clinton his SoS and advocate for her over any of the candidates I previously mentioned. That is open to speculation, but I would hardly classify her as his heir apparent.

Given the names I just rattled off, how did the only credible threats to Clinton become Webb and Sanders, two DINO's beyond the reach of the establishment. Does that not strike you as oddly coincidental?

Obama was & is an inspirational figure. None of those you mention have any where near that level of charisma. They know they don't. The 2008 primary was actually quite close despite that. This time around, it was Bernie but he fell short.

You go on as if we got here because of blocking maneuvers by the nefarious Clintons rather than through positive effort on Hillary's part. She's worked hard for this & doesn't intend to be denied the presidency by a raving buffoon & conman. That's a good thing.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,158
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That is my point. Talked to common sense by who exactly? I threw out Warren because she is a nationally known figure, but I recall quite a few other names circulating as potential heirs to Obama. Gavin Newsom, Antonio Villaraigosa, Andrew Cuomo, Deval Patrick. For candidates with strong localized appeal but not necessarily broad national recognition, you need establishment donors to kickstart their campaigns into the national spotlight.

Clinton was the presumptive nominee until Obama came out of nowhere, a relatively unknown national figure prior to his campaign, and beat her with a resonating message and superior ground game built from a broad reaching coalition of advocates. For this election cycle, any of the names I previously mentioned were potential threats to her for a variety of reasons, and you can be sure the Clintons were working the establishment hard to make sure she didn't face Obama 2.0.

Why did Obama make Clinton his SoS and advocate for her over any of the candidates I previously mentioned. That is open to speculation, but I would hardly classify her as his heir apparent.

Given the names I just rattled off, how did the only credible threats to Clinton become Webb and Sanders, two DINO's beyond the reach of the establishment. Does that not strike you as oddly coincidental?

Basically all those people you mentioned would have been very weak candidates and probably knew it. God, I don't think Cuomo could even win his own state in the primary. (he has a 40% approval rating right now) Also, why did you not mention Martin O'Malley, a figure who was both a more credible candidate than Webb and also someone who was most certainly not beyond the reach of the establishment? Doesn't that blow up your whole theory?

Do you think Al Gore having few challengers in 2000 was the result of some nefarious work or was it the result of the fact that he was such a strong (primary) candidate that nobody wanted to challenge him?
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
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Obama was & is an inspirational figure. None of those you mention have any where near that level of charisma. They know they don't. The 2008 primary was actually quite close despite that. This time around, it was Bernie but he fell short.

You go on as if we got here because of blocking maneuvers by the nefarious Clintons rather than through positive effort on Hillary's part. She's worked hard for this & doesn't intend to be denied the presidency by a raving buffoon & conman. That's a good thing.
I will concede that none of us want for her to be denied by a raving buffoon and conman. Whether or not she deserves it is up for debate. I recognize and appreciate you are a supporter of her, so you of course will perceive what she does from a positive perspective, and that is your prerogative. I have a slightly different perspective on the Clintons, so I don't share your admiration and respect.

I similarly concede that the right wing spin machine has made them to be more nefarious than what is probably reality, but I do not accept either is clean as the driven snow. The email thing bothers me, for reasons we've circled on for weeks and you will probably never understand because what I interpret as objective you dismiss as FUD.

I can accept her as President. I don't have to necessarily like it.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
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Basically all those people you mentioned would have been very weak candidates and probably knew it. God, I don't think Cuomo could even win his own state in the primary. (he has a 40% approval rating right now) Also, why did you not mention Martin O'Malley, a figure who was both a more credible candidate than Webb and also someone who was most certainly not beyond the reach of the establishment? Doesn't that blow up your whole theory?

Do you think Al Gore having few challengers in 2000 was the result of some nefarious work or was it the result of the fact that he was such a strong (primary) candidate that nobody wanted to challenge him?
Most of the candidates are no more weak than Obama was. O'Malley somewhat blows up my theory, but he lasted what 10 minutes in the spotlight? He was not a credible threat to the extent that he could motivate a movement as Obama did.

I would hardly classify Gore as a strong candidate. He was the heir apparent and fumbled at the goal line. I got incredible satisfaction defeating him in Stick of Truth. Manbearpig.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,158
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Most of the candidates are no more weak than Obama was. O'Malley somewhat blows up my theory, but he lasted what 10 minutes in the spotlight? He was not a credible threat to the extent that he could motivate a movement as Obama did.

I agree that he wasn't a credible threat but that kind of speaks to Clinton's strength as a candidate, no? I think Deval Patrick could have been a credible threat, but that's really the only one out of the list that I view as a serious candidate.

I would hardly classify Gore as a strong candidate. He was the heir apparent and fumbled at the goal line. I got incredible satisfaction defeating him in Stick of Truth. Manbearpig.

I said he was a strong primary candidate, not a strong candidate in general. I mean he won every state after all. If the fix was in for Hillary was the fix in for Gore as well?
 
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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
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That is my point. [...]

Given the names I just rattled off, how did the only credible threats to Clinton become Webb and Sanders, two DINO's beyond the reach of the establishment. Does that not strike you as oddly coincidental?

It's clear she's a witch. She turned me into a Newt. The worst kind, too, a Gingrich. I got better. You can, too. Just lay off the ridiculous conspiracy theories.

And, hey, here's something to consider while you stew in your ideologically encrusted bunker. Maybe Obama made Clinton SOS because he recognized she had the best, most established chance of continuing his "I'm a liberal Democratic President trying desperately to get decent things done around the margins in the face of fanatic Republican dead-ender opposition in our sadly gerrymandered Congress."

But, no, you're probably right. That scenario is simply too sane and simple. F*ck Occam's razor! What did that Franciscan dickwad know, anyway? Needs more Bilderberg!! ;)
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
6,476
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Basically all those people you mentioned would have been very weak candidates and probably knew it. God, I don't think Cuomo could even win his own state in the primary. (he has a 40% approval rating right now) Also, why did you not mention Martin O'Malley, a figure who was both a more credible candidate than Webb and also someone who was most certainly not beyond the reach of the establishment? Doesn't that blow up your whole theory?

Do you think Al Gore having few challengers in 2000 was the result of some nefarious work or was it the result of the fact that he was such a strong (primary) candidate that nobody wanted to challenge him?

Weak candidates?!..against Trump?...as long as they showed discipline, vision and leadership, they would have moped the floor with Trump..IMO the only reason this election is so close is because Clinton is the nominee...I'm not going to sit here and say Clinton is not qualified, evil, would make a disaster as president or other such nonsense, and I do plan to vote for her...BUT, only because of Trump being her opponent. Lets face it...she is not well liked due to personality, charisma and her "politics"...even by rational people

I would have lined up behind any of those "weak" candidates against Trump...
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Weak candidates?!..against Trump?...as long as they showed discipline, vision and leadership, they would have moped the floor with Trump..IMO the only reason this election is so close is because Clinton is the nominee...I'm not going to sit here and say Clinton is not qualified, evil, would make a disaster as president or other such nonsense, and I do plan to vote for her...BUT, only because of Trump being her opponent. Lets face it...she is not well liked due to personality, charisma and her "politics"...even by rational people

I would have lined up behind any of those "weak" candidates against Trump...

A recent PPP poll shows that Obama wouldn't be doing substantially better than Clinton and he's not only the sitting president but he's pretty popular right now so it would seem unlikely that these other candidates would have 'mopped the floor' with Trump. That's how strong partisanship is.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligence...ot-do-much-better-than-clinton-this-year.html

EDIT: Fixed link.
 
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VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
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A recent PPP poll shows that Obama wouldn't be doing substantially better than Clinton and he's not only the sitting president but he's pretty popular right now so it would seem unlikely that these other candidates would have 'mopped the floor' with Trump. That's how strong partisanship is.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligence...ch-better-than-clinton-this-year.html[/quote]

I got a broken link...perhaps, perhaps not, I find the many "undecided's" that have crossed my path are not true partisans and the ONLY reason they are even still listening to Trump is because of Clinton being the nominee. The non rational non thinking partisan voter is going to do what they do.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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I got a broken link...perhaps, perhaps not, I find the many "undecided's" that have crossed my path are not true partisans and the ONLY reason they are even still listening to Trump is because of Clinton being the nominee. The non rational non thinking partisan voter is going to do what they do.

I mean it's hard to do the counterfactual, they might have said the same thing about whatever other Democratic nominee was there. I think the polling here strongly indicates that people are basically set in their ways no matter how atrocious the nominee is. I'm sure candidates matter a good bit, but probably less than you think.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,236
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Weak candidates?!..against Trump?...as long as they showed discipline, vision and leadership, they would have moped the floor with Trump..IMO the only reason this election is so close is because Clinton is the nominee...I'm not going to sit here and say Clinton is not qualified, evil, would make a disaster as president or other such nonsense, and I do plan to vote for her...BUT, only because of Trump being her opponent. Lets face it...she is not well liked due to personality, charisma and her "politics"...even by rational people

I would have lined up behind any of those "weak" candidates against Trump...

You do realize that trump wasn't considered a serious candidate early on right? Dems didn't begin this presidential run thinking they'd be facing trump.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
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I mean it's hard to do the counterfactual, they might have said the same thing about whatever other Democratic nominee was there. I think the polling here strongly indicates that people are basically set in their ways no matter how atrocious the nominee is. I'm sure candidates matter a good bit, but probably less than you think.

Well...my state (FLA) is turning blue, along with a few others, and, again...almost everyone I have spoken to (friends, family members, people on the streets ) are holding their nose's and voting for Clinton. Hell..even 7 out of 10 Christian fundi - fox news watching republicans from my wife's side of the family, in their home state of GA no less, are voting for Clinton. The other 3 are so fuckin paranoid Clinton is going to take their guns, they are voting for Trump. They even don't like him. Polls are polls and perhaps they will ring true. I don't know where you live, but word on the streets down here are far different from these "polls".
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
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You do realize that trump wasn't considered a serious candidate early on right? Dems didn't begin this presidential run thinking they'd be facing trump.

No. I don't realize that, my perception could be wrong...Trump seemed to get much of the adoration from "these" votors early on. Mostly for being an asshole
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Well...my state (FLA) is turning blue, along with a few others, and, again...almost everyone I have spoken to (friends, family members, people on the streets ) are holding their nose's and voting for Clinton. Hell..even 7 out of 10 Christian fundi - fox news watching republicans from my wife's side of the family, in their home state of GA no less, are voting for Clinton. The other 3 are so fuckin paranoid Clinton is going to take their guns, they are voting for Trump. They even don't like him. Polls are polls and perhaps they will ring true. I don't know where you live, but word on the streets down here are far different from these "polls".

I live in NYC so I have basically never met a Trump supporter. I imagine his approval rating outside of Staten Island and the far reaches of Queens/the Bronx is about on par with AIDS. I know there are parts of Long Island and upstate where he is quite popular though and that's the thing: we all have our bubbles that we live in and it's unlikely that any of them are truly representative. That's why polls are helpful.

I've said it before, I doubt we will see a 10 point victory again in our lifetimes. Partisanship is just too strong. I mean just look at Obama: he has been a competent, moderate president and a large part of the country thinks he's the second coming of Muslim Hitler who is going to put them in FEMA camps.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
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In no way am I downplaying how partisan the country is....In this polarized era of politics, virtually every politician in office with a national profile will have low to moderate favorability and approval ratings.

Clinton is one of the most qualified to run for president, in 2008 and 2106, no doubt..but she still managed to get her ass kicked by the Muslim Hitler that the large part of the country thinks he is, in your words... Some would say she leveraged her husbands presidency into a Senate seat. Would she have ever been a political player on her own...possibly, but debatable

She's qualified and experienced. She's as honest as any other politician, and definitely more honest than her opponent. Will she change much in 4 or 8 years, we'll see..

I'm with her. I guess. Trump is her opponent. I'm with her!
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
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I agree that he wasn't a credible threat but that kind of speaks to Clinton's strength as a candidate, no? I think Deval Patrick could have been a credible threat, but that's really the only one out of the list that I view as a serious candidate.
I said he was a strong primary candidate, not a strong candidate in general. I mean he won every state after all. If the fix was in for Hillary was the fix in for Gore as well?
Fair point. I guess it all depends on who you think the king makers are within the DNC, or in this year's case, queen maker. Obama proved it is possible to launch a campaign from outside the establishment and build a winning coalition.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
It's clear she's a witch. She turned me into a Newt. The worst kind, too, a Gingrich. I got better. You can, too. Just lay off the ridiculous conspiracy theories.

And, hey, here's something to consider while you stew in your ideologically encrusted bunker. Maybe Obama made Clinton SOS because he recognized she had the best, most established chance of continuing his "I'm a liberal Democratic President trying desperately to get decent things done around the margins in the face of fanatic Republican dead-ender opposition in our sadly gerrymandered Congress."

But, no, you're probably right. That scenario is simply too sane and simple. F*ck Occam's razor! What did that Franciscan dickwad know, anyway? Needs more Bilderberg!! ;)
If the broom fits...
 
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